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Thread: First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin, Cheddar Man DNA analysis reveals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Got that from Eupedia:
    The Cheddar Man (subclade U5a): the remains of a Mesolithic man found in Gough's Cave in Cheddar Gorge, Somerset, England. It is Britain's oldest complete human skeleton.
    I don’t know about the Y.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...U5_mtDNA.shtml
    the U5 mtDNA is not sure

    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

    England, UK Gough's Cave, Cheddar [Cheddar Man] M 8000 BC Unreliable; U5 16192T, 16270T, reported as U5a. Never properly published. Contamination likely. Due to be re-tested. ISOGG; personal communication Chris Stringer re contamination

    'To perform the DNA analysis, museum scientists drilled a 2mm-diameter hole into the ancient skull to obtain a few milligrams of bone powder. From this, they were able to extract a full genome, which held clues about this ancient relative’s appearance and lifestyle.'

    I hope they did a better job now, and that the results will be published soon.

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    The reconstruction looks a lot like this Neanderthal reconstruction in the face shapes. Attachment 9721

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    That's just typical for modern PoC culture. Same with "Black Britons" of Roman Era and "Black Anglo-Saxons" that BBC was eager to show everyone.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Everything is not a PC conspiracy, and I say that as someone who is very anti-PC thinking generally speaking, at least in an American context. I believe in strictly going by the facts, and letting the chips fall where they may. Even if there were one, I highly doubt Chris Stringer would be part of it.

    The facts are that these WHG generally do not have the de-pigmentation snps of West Eurasians. The SHG do, and so do the few EHG samples, and so do the Early Farmers.

    Now, there's an outside chance they had some convergent evolution de-pigmentation snp, but we have a lot of WHG samples now, and nothing has shown up. If and until one is discovered, they would seem to be darker than modern West Eurasians, and darker than the other ancient people listed above.

    That said, I don't know why they made the bust so "black".

    This is apparently just one sample in a group that's being analyzed, and it seems as if they got a lot of dna, so maybe the paper will clarify things.


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    Good news, even though the claims may be inaccurate. How can one tell the color of the skin from bones and DNA??? Anyway, while doing some etymological work, I saw some parallels between the language of the Britons and the language of some Osci in southern Italy, namely the Bruzi or Bruttii [Bryts] of Calabria who co-exist with the colonizing Greeks. So, I called for a continued investigation of those two peoples and their languages. Now I can only call for selective DNA studies of the Italic Bruzi (rather than southern Italians collectively). Knowing them personally, I can say that they have no shades of brown or negroid color;they are Mediterranids, grayish with wavy black hair. Like some Greek derivatives, they may have blue or green eyes from hybridation with either Longobard or Norman (Norse) people during the Middle Ages. Some living Bruzi and living Britons look alike to me.

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    Years ago, I had a conversation with Kristina, where I said I thought the WHG might have looked something like Mait Metspalu of the Estonian Research Center. That was after the Loschbour reconstruction came out.

    I think it's even more true with this reconstruction. It makes sense we'd find people who still carry some of those "appearance" genes in the far northeast of Europe, since there is so much WHG there, the most in Europe.





    I can't believe people on some of these forums are trying to distance themselves from poor Cheddar Man, i.e. he's not really an ancestor of modern people of the British Isles.

    Where have they been? We know that WHG people didn't look like modern Europeans. Cheddar man is just WHG, which should have been expected, and Britain has a good slice of WHG, picked up in the passage across Europe if not in a direct line from the Neolithic people who might have mated with people like Cheddar Man.

    Gosh, it used to be all the rage with certain people to want to have lots of WHG, but that all goes away when there's a lot of publicity about the fact that they were probably darker skinned than modern West Eurasians?

    I guess some people don't like the irony of the fact that the ancestry which is a part of plotting "north" (and west) on PCAs is actually from quite dark-skinned people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Years ago, I had a conversation with Kristina, where I said I thought the WHG might have looked something like Mait Metspalu of the Estonian Research Center. That was after the Loschbour reconstruction came out.

    I think it's even more true with this reconstruction. It makes sense we'd find people who still carry some of those "appearance" genes in the far northeast of Europe, since there is so much WHG there, the most in Europe.





    I can't believe people on some of these forums are trying to distance themselves from poor Cheddar Man, i.e. he's not really an ancestor of modern people of the British Isles.

    Where have they been? We know that WHG people didn't look like modern Europeans. Cheddar man is just WHG, which should have been expected, and Britain has a good slice of WHG, picked up in the passage across Europe if not in a direct line from the Neolithic people who might have mated with people like Cheddar Man.

    Gosh, it used to be all the rage with certain people to want to have lots of WHG, but that all goes away when there's a lot of publicity about the fact that they were probably darker skinned than modern West Eurasians?

    I guess some people don't like the irony of the fact that the ancestry which is a part of plotting "north" (and west) on PCAs is actually from quite dark-skinned people.
    I agree but isn't there speculation about the introduction of "light/fair skinned" allele into Europe? May it have been Neolithic farmers?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joustos View Post
    Good news, even though the claims may be inaccurate. How can one tell the color of the skin from bones and DNA??? Anyway, while doing some etymological work, I saw some parallels between the language of the Britons and the language of some Osci in southern Italy, namely the Bruzi or Bruttii [Bryts] of Calabria who co-exist with the colonizing Greeks. So, I called for a continued investigation of those two peoples and their languages. Now I can only call for selective DNA studies of the Italic Bruzi (rather than southern Italians collectively). Knowing them personally, I can say that they have no shades of brown or negroid color;they are Mediterranids, grayish with wavy black hair. Like some Greek derivatives, they may have blue or green eyes from hybridation with either Longobard or Norman (Norse) people during the Middle Ages. Some living Bruzi and living Britons look alike to me.
    What on earth are you talking about?

    Please read all the papers on this thread. Southern Italians have very little WHG. The people in Europe with the most WHG are Finns, Estonians, and other northeast Europeans. Take a look at Mait Metspalu in the thread above. Then go to the search engine and put in pigmentation and read the threads to find out how Dna influences pigmentation. What did you think influenced it if not DNA? A magic wand?

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ation-Genetics

    If this is not ignorance and is in effect a lame attempt at t-rolling, be aware you got a pass because I'm not sure. If it happens again, you're out of here.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I agree but isn't there speculation about the introduction of "light/fair skinned" allele into Europe? May it have been Neolithic farmers?
    There's still a lot to learn. We do know that the Anatolian farmers, and then the EEF, their descendants, by and large, who migrated to Europe, were virtually all derived for SLC24A5, while the WHG were ancestral. A lot of the farmers were also derived for SLC42A5, which is another of the major skin lightening snps in its derived state, while again the WHG were ancestral. The SHG who lived in Scandinavia, a mixture, perhaps, of WHG and EHG, had high proportions of the skin lightening snps, perhaps from the EHG of the eastern periphery of Europe, and blue eyes, from the WHG. The few EHG samples we have so far have the skin lightening genes but were predicted to have mostly been brown haired and brown eyed, like most of the farmers.

    We know some of this is probably tied to selection based on latitude and the availability of Vitamin D from sunshine. World wide, the further you get from the equator the less "dark" your skin, generally speaking, although there are exceptions. The thinking is that perhaps at higher latitudes selection favors lighter skin so you can get more Vitamin D. One of the latest papers shows that the SHG over time had more of the skin lightening snps than the EHG from whom they draw part of their ancestry, and they live very far north indeed, and so the researchers posit that selection was going on.

    Other researchers in the past had also posited that perhaps the Mesolithic WHG who tended to live mostly sedentary lives around bodies of water and got a lot of their calories from fish high in Vitamin D might have been less subject to pressure to "lighten up". The EHG may have had a different diet being so far from the sea. Farmers, who didn't consume very much fish at all, and mostly grains with no Vitamin D, might have been targeted strongly by selection for fair skin.

    Where the derived mutations first took place, in which group, I don't know, but there was a suggestion in one of the papers that it might have been on a hunter-gatherer background. Perhaps it happened in the Middle East among the UHG in Anatolia and spread outward from there. I don't know. I don't know that it's so important. I also don't know exactly how and why the selection works for fair skin in more northern latitudes. There may be selection going on with regard to those snps which is tied to something besides pigmentation. There's still a lot to learn.

    We're also pretty sure that skin pigmentation is a polygenic trait, and these two major snps don't account for all of the variation. If the Cheddar Man sample is really good, someone should run all the snps through Hirisplex, the forensic science predictor for pigmentation. Two snps aren't enough to make a determination.

    It's clear however, that selection has been going on, and that it's relatively recent as these things go. Look at this WHG. It's not all that long ago in the history of mankind. Indeed, some of the studies show that it has changed even in the last millennium.

    That's certainly the case with lactase persistence or the ability to digest lactose as an adult.

    I think people just have to accept, even if it's a little disorienting at first, the fact that this image they had in their minds that we're exactly like our ancestors from ten, fifteen thousand years ago in terms of appearance and even in terms of other body functions may not be not true.

    We have survived because we have adapted and adaptation means change.

    Sandra Wilde et al is a good paper to read about pigmentation, because she lists a lot of the previous research and authors, and you can take it from there.

    Sandra Wilde et al:

    "Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in the last 5000 years."

    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832

    See also:
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/...ved-white-skin

    Iain Mathiesen et al
    "8000 years of natural selection in Europe"

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...16477.full.pdf



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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Yes, absolutely possible. Moreover, these findings seem not based on a peer-reviewed paper but on a Channel 4 documentary.

    Cheddar man may have been no different from other WHG found and analyzed.

    I'm still looking for any paper out, but so far I have not found anything.

    I agree with Angela but I'll go farther: in France, newspapers and TV as a rule don't understand the matter they are talking about (in human sciences), without any specific intention for the most. In Britain and anglo-saxon world, I fear they had the habits to exaggerate, making "scoops" of every human science new, even the BBC: kind of electroshock everytime it's possible. And some scientists, as Sykes by instance, are specialists of the "scoop". Maybe I go too far, do I?
    I rather think this man had a veddoid-like skin at the most and was close physically to his time HG's of West Europe. Concerning the supposed Near-Eastern origin, I'm without clue: N-E origin, yes, but when exactly?

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    Concerning skin pigmentation, I recall some new mutated SNP's have been discovered in SSAfrica which seem responsible for darkening of the skin, what changes the perspective; before the mainstream ones thought the basic modern human skin colour was a very blackish one, now it's no more sure. The farthest in past, the least need to have a determined colour of skin, because of the body hair (look at Champs: they had everykind of it: white with freckles or blackish, but a solid hair protection against sunbeams.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I find it fascinating and cool that he had black skin. Im not ashamed to be related to him through my 1/4 Irish ancestry.

    BTW I'm sure a lot (but not all) of those who are upset over this are upset bc they're racist and don't like black people.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    the article does mention the cheddar man 'had “ancestral” versions of all these genes' concerning pigmentation, yet since labrana and loschbour were homozygous derived at rs6119471 thus maybe also the cheddar man; other than that a typical WHG profile, old news; just last year gonzales-fortes et al published several more from iberia and danube/carpathian yet that obv did not reach the broad news; maybe the media will invite experts to explain it all as when ballynahatty/rathlin was published a few years ago;
    https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-12-...ncient-ireland

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's still a lot to learn. We do know that the Anatolian farmers, and then the EEF, their descendants, by and large, who migrated to Europe, were virtually all derived for SLC24A5, while the WHG were ancestral. A lot of the farmers were also derived for SLC42A5, which is another of the major skin lightening snps in its derived state, while again the WHG were ancestral. The SHG who lived in Scandinavia, a mixture, perhaps, of WHG and EHG, had high proportions of the skin lightening snps, perhaps from the EHG of the eastern periphery of Europe, and blue eyes, from the WHG. The few EHG samples we have so far have the skin lightening genes but were predicted to have mostly been brown haired and brown eyed, like most of the farmers.
    We know some of this is probably tied to selection based on latitude and the availability of Vitamin D from sunshine. World wide, the further you get from the equator the less "dark" your skin, generally speaking, although there are exceptions. The thinking is that perhaps at higher latitudes selection favors lighter skin so you can get more Vitamin D. One of the latest papers shows that the SHG over time had more of the skin lightening snps than the EHG from whom they draw part of their ancestry, and they live very far north indeed, and so the researchers posit that selection was going on.
    Other researchers in the past had also posited that perhaps the Mesolithic WHG who tended to live mostly sedentary lives around bodies of water and got a lot of their calories from fish high in Vitamin D might have been less subject to pressure to "lighten up". The EHG may have had a different diet being so far from the sea. Farmers, who didn't consume very much fish at all, and mostly grains with no Vitamin D, might have been targeted strongly by selection for fair skin.
    Where the derived mutations first took place, in which group, I don't know, but there was a suggestion in one of the papers that it might have been on a hunter-gatherer background. Perhaps it happened in the Middle East among the UHG in Anatolia and spread outward from there. I don't know. I don't know that it's so important. I also don't know exactly how and why the selection works for fair skin in more northern latitudes. There may be selection going on with regard to those snps which is tied to something besides pigmentation. There's still a lot to learn.
    We're also pretty sure that skin pigmentation is a polygenic trait, and these two major snps don't account for all of the variation. If the Cheddar Man sample is really good, someone should run all the snps through Hirisplex, the forensic science predictor for pigmentation. Two snps aren't enough to make a determination.
    It's clear however, that selection has been going on, and that it's relatively recent as these things go. Look at this WHG. It's not all that long ago in the history of mankind. Indeed, some of the studies show that it has changed even in the last millennium.
    That's certainly the case with lactase persistence or the ability to digest lactose as an adult.
    I think people just have to accept, even if it's a little disorienting at first, the fact that this image they had in their minds that we're exactly like our ancestors from ten, fifteen thousand years ago in terms of appearance and even in terms of other body functions may not be not true.
    We have survived because we have adapted and adaptation means change.
    Sandra Wilde et al is a good paper to read about pigmentation, because she lists a lot of the previous research and authors, and you can take it from there.
    Sandra Wilde et al:
    "Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in the last 5000 years."
    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832
    See also:
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/...ved-white-skin
    Iain Mathiesen et al
    "8000 years of natural selection in Europe"
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...16477.full.pdf
    Thanks so much Angela for your insights!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    An insightful remark from Razib Khan https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...-be-published/

    East Asians, for example, lack both the derived variants of SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 common in Europeans but are often quite light-skinned. A deeper analysis of the pigmentation architecture of WHG might lead us to conclude that they were an olive or light brown-skinned people. This is my suspicion because modern Arctic peoples are neither pale white nor dark brown, but of various shades of olive.

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    Personally, I'm not upset, but doubtful concerning the reality of a total blackness of Cheddar man skin, but who knows at this stage?

    Maybe I red too quickly and misundertood something, maybe it was not the same paper!
    ATW the presence since maybe a long time in Africa of diverse states of genes responsible for pigmentation seems possible, and is the cause of the variability among "Blacks". Interesting is the fact that some traits unifying Africans and South-East Asians seem produced by the same genetic basis, and not by convergence, at the contrary of the similituies for pigmentation between East Asians and Europeans.
    So the link; I 'll read it again, slowly.

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-...uman-skin.html

    People intrested could discuss this in Anthropology -pigmentation.

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    abstract of report
    Ann GIBBONS, 'Science' review journalist (so a second hand report!)
    [...The team also found variants of two neighboring genes, HERC2 and OCA2, which are associated with light skin, eyes, and hair in Europeans but arose in Africa; these variants are ancient and common in the light-skinned San people. The team proposes that the variants arose in Africa as early as 1 million years ago and spread later to Europeans and Asians. “Many of the gene variants that cause light skin in Europe have origins in Africa,” Tishkoff says.

    The most dramatic discovery concerned a gene known as MFSD12. Two mutations that decrease expression of this gene were found in high frequencies in people with the darkest skin. These variants arose about a half-million years ago, suggesting that human ancestors before that time may have had moderately dark skin, rather than the deep black hue created today by these mutations.

    These same two variants are found in Melanesians, Australian Aborigines, and some Indians. These people may have inherited the variants from ancient migrants from Africa who followed a “southern route” out of East Africa, along the southern coast of India to Melanesia and Australia, Tishkoff says. That idea, however, counters three genetic studies that concluded last year that Australians, Melanesians, and Eurasians all descend from a single migration out of Africa. Alternatively, this great migration may have included people carrying variants for both light and dark skin, but the dark variants later were lost in Eurasians. ...]

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    I feel even after the neolithic and indo-european expansions, if most of the european HG's were very dark skinned, that feature would still exist in today's time. It is a dominant traits and even if europe is very mixed now, there is here and there some pockets, especially in mountainous area were those features could survive. I feel that a lot of country still have some darkish features that clearly aren't sun related, like for exemple Romania ( even if it can be related with Roms ).
    Attachment 9728 Romanian young woman.

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    I think at the end of the day, in this community at least, nobody is fascinating by a whatever racial agenda, like it change nothing to europe, it doesn't condemn, doesn't justify anything. I remember at the time of the La Brana reconstruction some people on the internet tried to push a libertarian agenda about it, but the argument are always a non-sens, like for exemple what would a 10'000 BC individual skin color have to do with a political acceptance ? nothing. Edit: Btw, the article is very surprising they act like this is something new, of course we all know here about the La Brana individual, they also state that this is the first and oldest individual discovered in England, i supposed, but what about the Red Lady of Paviland ( that is in Wales i know ) but they state Britons so they mean all the Great-Britain i guess... Idk they are researcher but i feel they dont really know a lot about the settlement of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I think at the end of the day, in this community at least, nobody is fascinating by a whatever racial agenda, like it change nothing to europe, it doesn't condemn, doesn't justify anything. I remember at the time of the La Brana reconstruction some people on the internet tried to push a libertarian agenda about it, but the argument are always a non-sens, like for exemple what would a 10'000 BC individual skin color have to do with a political acceptance ? nothing. Edit: Btw, the article is very surprising they act like this is something new, of course we all know here about the La Brana individual, they also state that this is the first and oldest individual discovered in England, i supposed, but what about the Red Lady of Paviland ( that is in Wales i know ) but they state Britons so they mean all the Great-Britain i guess... Idk they are researcher but i feel they dont really know a lot about the settlement of Europe.
    yes, it is TV
    they want to make it credible and interesting and spectacular for the spectators but not necessary truthfull
    their title 'first modern Britons' is already wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, it is TV
    they want to make it credible and interesting and spectacular for the spectators but not necessary truthfull
    their title 'first modern Britons' is already wrong
    Yes, Mr Cheddar is not very "modern" ;)

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    Lol

    Why don't they really make this interesting and publish "First white person discovered in ancient Russia" next week.

    Evil white Russian men are conspiring to undermine the democracy of the black Britons.

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    This does not make any sense. How come Early Europeans were black, but Africans are still black? What made Europeans turn white, and stopped Africans from changing the skin color?

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    ^^Please read post number 34 and go to the papers in the links.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Moesan mentioned a "Veddoid" look in terms of skin color. I think it may apply to features as well.



    Or, how about him?


    I think he's from Sri Lanka.

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