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Thread: First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin, Cheddar Man DNA analysis reveals

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    Quote Originally Posted by noman View Post
    This does not make any sense. How come Early Europeans were black, but Africans are still black? What made Europeans turn white, and stopped Africans from changing the skin color?
    It is most likely an error ...........If he was that Black he would most likely got rickets disease in those ancient times .............he was probably a brownish colour and not sub-saharan black as drawn
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.


    A closer color of the Cheddar Man than black sub-saharan african photo. These Cheddar men are made of real cheese.

    A visit to any county or state fair will have butter or cheddar sculptures closer to the real complexion of the man from Cheddar than photo provided in the original post.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Fascinating. He was ORANGE?

    We've known that the WHG were probably darker than any modern West Eurasians for years. What did you people expect?

    Responses like this almost make me wish he was as black as the ace of spades. However, I'll keep it objective. If he was derived at least for KITLG he probably wasn't.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Fascinating. He was ORANGE?

    We've known that the WHG were probably darker than any modern West Eurasians for years. What did you people expect?

    Responses like this almost make me wish he was as black as the ace of spades. However, I'll keep it objective. If he was derived at least for KITLG he probably wasn't.
    i think Messier_67 was being sarcastic, saying how someone called "Cheddar Man" should have cheddar colored skin.

    That sculpture looks yummy btw
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I know exactly what Messier is about, and if I need your assistance in moderating, I'll let you know.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    WHGs being darker doesn't bother me, it might even explain me not being the whitest-looking white person, but the way I've seen this used so far does (i.e. a black woman on the news saying how nice it was that "black" people were in Britain before "English" were). Darker skin doesn't = black African, but that's the way it's being treated.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Believe me, I get it. Most people are completely ignorant when it comes to ancient dna, or modern dna, for that matter, and that includes reporters.

    The researchers should try to be more clear in explaining their findings, pointing out, for example, that this is strictly about skin color, and not at all about "ethnic" identification. The WHG don't plot anywhere near Sub-Saharan Africans, and so there is no closer autosomal relationship between WHG and Africans than there is between the lighter Anatolian Neolithic people and the SSA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Believe me, I get it. Most people are completely ignorant when it comes to ancient dna, or modern dna, for that matter, and that includes reporters.

    The researchers should try to be more clear in explaining their findings, pointing out, for example, that this is strictly about skin color, and not at all about "ethnic" identification. The WHG don't plot anywhere near Sub-Saharan Africans, and so there is no closer autosomal relationship between WHG and Africans than there is between the lighter Anatolian Neolithic people and the SSA.
    if they are unable to explain this, they'd better not made and presented the reconstruction on TV because it augments the ignorance and misunderstanding, the opposit of what a reconstruction is meant to do

    but that is not the aim of the TV makers, it is to attract viewers, and the title is only about the skin colour

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if they are unable to explain this, they'd better not made and presented the reconstruction on TV because it augments the ignorance and misunderstanding, the opposit of what a reconstruction is meant to do
    but that is not the aim of the TV makers, it is to attract viewers, and the title is only about the skin colour
    If you saw the video about the presentation it was like the Top Gear of the Archaeology, pretty funny.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I would like to laugh but it is representative of the times we live in today. Seems like a typical report with an ulterior motive to take the identity of Caucasians away and replace it with some pseudo scientific logic by trying to make British ancestry "black". Imagine the racist labelling that heading would get if it had the word " white" in the heading. 10,000 years ago isn't modern either, most British ancestry dates from very recent Invasions of Celtic and Germanic tribes from the Steppes. Also skin tone can change dramatically with sun exposure can you get that accurate of a skin type through bone? And if you can then aren't those the types of reports that this day and age are trying to avoid, with classification of completely different skin types! Haha I change my mind I'm laughing now, what a joke.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    If they released the Y-DNA haplogroup we would not be having this discussion. An I black European is nearly laughable. IJK were most likely whitish before Y-DNA I entered into Europe. I doubt there would be any scholars depicting Y-DNA I as black, even 8000 BCE. Indonesians (from K2) have light colored skin and have never generationally been in Northern Latitudes. If we are talking about a C in Europe that is a completely different story. The Aborigines are C and if they depicted the specimen from Cheddar... dark, but not as dark as some Aborigines, then there would be some plausibility to it.

    And it has been said in other places they only looked at two genes for whiteness that Europeans have. Can this be verified. Do the Indonesians have these two "white genes". If not, there are other determining DNA factors to not have near black or black skin.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Messier 67 View Post
    If they released the Y-DNA haplogroup we would not be having this discussion. An I black European is nearly laughable. IJK were most likely whitish before Y-DNA I entered into Europe. I doubt there would be any scholars depicting Y-DNA I as black, even 8000 BCE. Indonesians (from K2) have light colored skin and have never generationally been in Northern Latitudes. If we are talking about a C in Europe that is a completely different story. The Aborigines are C and if they depicted the specimen from Cheddar... dark, but not as dark as some Aborigines, then there would be some plausibility to it.

    And it has been said in other places they only looked at two genes for whiteness that Europeans have. Can this be verified. Do the Indonesians have these two "white genes". If not, there are other determining DNA factors to not have near black or black skin.
    This does not make sense. Y-DNA haplogroups do not have a skin color. They're just a marker of one chromosome that has nothing to do with the pigmentation alleles that do influence the skin color of individuals. Many R1b people are so white that they can't even tan, and many other R1b people (Central Africa) are extremely dark-skinned. To talk about "IJK people" having this or that skin color is a clear misunderstanding of how genetics work, especially when you're talking about the skin color of modern people that we can see and using them as a reference to how people looked 10,000 years ago or even much earlier if you are referring to IJK people when its descendant haplogroups did not even exist (certainly more than 30,000 years ago). Such a strategy can't reach a credible conclusion.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think there's some exaggeration going on here. Black skin?

    I'd have to see all the snps, but he might have typical WHG like snps.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I agree with Angela but I'll go farther: in France, newspapers and TV as a rule don't understand the matter they are talking about (in human sciences), without any specific intention for the most. In Britain and anglo-saxon world, I fear they had the habits to exaggerate, making "scoops" of every human science new, even the BBC: kind of electroshock everytime it's possible. And some scientists, as Sykes by instance, are specialists of the "scoop". Maybe I go too far, do I?
    I rather think this man had a veddoid-like skin at the most and was close physically to his time HG's of West Europe. Concerning the supposed Near-Eastern origin, I'm without clue: N-E origin, yes, but when exactly?

    French paleo-geneticist Céline Bon at the Musée de l'Homme in Paris in a recent interview with France's Le Figaro.



    "Si ce n'est pas impossible, pour Céline Bon, paléogénéticienne au Musée de l'Homme, le nouveau buste de ce chasseur-cueilleur dévoilé la semaine dernière ressemble plus «à une opération de communication, qu'à un travail scientifique».

    (...)

    Ces résultats ne surprennent pas forcément la communauté mais des chercheurs s'interrogent néanmoins sur la méthode utilisée. «Chris Stringer et son équipe sont des gens sérieux, mais objectivement, ça ressemble plus à une opération de communication qu'à autre chose.» Aucune publication scientifique n'est en effet associé à cette annonce fracassante. Le Musée d'Histoire Naturelle de Londres a dévoilé le nouveau buste et annoncé un documentaire diffusé sur Channel 4 (voir ci-dessous), mais aucune publication ne vient détailler les travaux effectués pour arriver à ces conclusions."

    Source: Le Figaro


    Vincent Bordenave, «Cheddar Man» : l'ancêtre des Britanniques avait-il la peau noire ?; le 13/02/2018 à 20:00

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/sciences/2018...peau-noire.php

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    French paleo-geneticist Céline Bon at the Musée de l'Homme in Paris in a recent interview with France's Le Figaro.



    "Si ce n'est pas impossible, pour Céline Bon, paléogénéticienne au Musée de l'Homme, le nouveau buste de ce chasseur-cueilleur dévoilé la semaine dernière ressemble plus «à une opération de communication, qu'à un travail scientifique».

    (...)

    Ces résultats ne surprennent pas forcément la communauté mais des chercheurs s'interrogent néanmoins sur la méthode utilisée. «Chris Stringer et son équipe sont des gens sérieux, mais objectivement, ça ressemble plus à une opération de communication qu'à autre chose.» Aucune publication scientifique n'est en effet associé à cette annonce fracassante. Le Musée d'Histoire Naturelle de Londres a dévoilé le nouveau buste et annoncé un documentaire diffusé sur Channel 4 (voir ci-dessous), mais aucune publication ne vient détailler les travaux effectués pour arriver à ces conclusions."

    Source: Le Figaro


    Vincent Bordenave, «Cheddar Man» : l'ancêtre des Britanniques avait-il la peau noire ?; le 13/02/2018 à 20:00

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/sciences/2018...peau-noire.php
    Indeed, it's not a surprise to researchers, who have known about the phenotype of WHGs for sometime now. As the quote you have posted states.

    This whole media storm demonstrates how superficial reporters can be in presenting a story. Moreover, how solely relying on generic news sources, and not reading the peer-reviewed academic papers on the matter can be misleading. All of the news outlets have failed to address the nuances of genetics, and are hyper-focused on the phenotype of the WHG. Indeed WHGs had a dark skin complexion, but genetically Cheddar man is far from a sub-Saharan African. It makes me cringe to see the reactions of both news outlets behaving like trashy tabloids, and conspiracy-theorist commentators that don’t accept the fact that WHGs had a dark complexion. For the news outlets to say he was Black-skinned is a loaded statement, nevertheless he was indeed dark-skinned.

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    Some commentary from around the web:

    "Leftist will put Europeans to an unfair standard of if everyone who lived on your land in the last 40,000 years wasn't exactly like you then you have no real claim to your land. Or if some of your ancestors lived in exotic lands (Middle East) then you're not actually European."

    Everyone in Europe has ancestry from the Middle East, most from very ancient times, some relatively more recently.

    I guess no one in Europe is "actually" European.

    Unbelievable.

    Ed. Sorry, the quotation mark was in the wrong place. It's now corrected.
    Last edited by Angela; 15-02-18 at 21:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some commentary from around the web:

    "Leftist will put Europeans to an unfair standard of if everyone who lived on your land in the last 40,000 years wasn't exactly like you then you have no real claim to your land. Or if some of your ancestors lived in exotic lands (Middle East) then you're not actually European."

    Everyone in Europe has ancestry from the Middle East, most from very ancient times, some relatively more recently.

    I guess no one in Europe is "actually" European.

    Unbelievable.
    It's a real shame that people don't bother reading the peer-reviewed academic papers. The person that wrote that must have completely no understanding of genetics, if they think they don't have ancestors from the middle east from ancient populations. This is what happens when people mix racism, science, and fringe-political rhetoric; they have these woefully ignorant conclusions that are a projection of their own inferiority complex.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 15-02-18 at 21:41.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There's a 45 page thread already on anthrogenica surrounding this finding, lol. Imagine the posts that make up those pages...

    Yes and saying that early farmers from the Middle East aren't European would make most Europeans roughly 1/2 European. Let's throw in the Steppe people with their Caucasus hunter and gatherer background, and Europeans north to south are even less European. This is the new "logic".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Everything is not a PC conspiracy, and I say that as someone who is very anti-PC thinking generally speaking..........That said, I don't know why they made the bust so "black"
    In my opinion, precisely because they are influenced by their political beliefs. As you know, 'black' is not an accurate term at all, genetically-speaking, hence why Australian Aborigines are considered 'black' by many, despite being more distantly related to sub-Saharan Africans than the latter are to Europeans, Amerindians or Han Chinese.I expected Cheddar Man to be brown, perhaps akin to a darker Arab or maybe a Veddoid Indian. It should not look like a Congolose with blue contacts in.

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    There's some internet chat that he is yDna "C" of some sort, which wouldn't be at all surprising.

    Again, I can't confirm that.

    @Alcuin,
    I can't imagine Chris Stringer doing anything at all underhanded. Let's wait and see the paper. Maybe this sample lacks even some of the derived snps that other WHG possessed. Or maybe their calls were faulty somehow. We just don't know yet.

    Don't go believing everything you see on internet sites. A lot of it is authored by paranoid, delusional, agenda driven idiots on the internet who often are also just liars trying to cover up their own less than estimable behavior. I saw some things posted about me today that were just ludicrous. Of course, the posters didn't have the guts to come on here and say it to my "virtual" face. :) They're better at sending scurrilous, sexist, foul, disgusting pms full of gross anatomical terms. That way no one knows what they're really like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's some internet chat that he is yDna "C" of some sort, which wouldn't be at all surprising.

    Again, I can't confirm that.

    @Alcuin,
    I can't imagine Chris Stringer doing anything at all underhanded. Let's wait and see the paper. Maybe this sample lacks even some of the derived snps that other WHG possessed. Or maybe their calls were faulty somehow. We just don't know yet.

    Don't go believing everything you see on internet sites. A lot of it is authored by paranoid, delusional, agenda driven idiots on the internet who often are also just liars trying to cover up their own less than estimable behavior. I saw some things posted about me today that were just ludicrous. Of course, the posters didn't have the guts to come on here and say it to my "virtual" face. :) They're better at sending scurrilous, sexist, foul, disgusting pms full of gross anatomical terms. That way no one knows what they're really like.
    They're sore losers and nothing more; like those who want to play 52 pick up after losing a poker game

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My favorite bs story is the Cheddar Man was just visiting.
    Obviously he was a Lost Tourist and somehow he end up crocking in that cave. lol
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    My favorite bs story is the Cheddar Man was just visiting.
    Obviously he was a Lost Tourist and somehow he end up crocking in that cave. lol
    A LOST TOURIST?? A TOURIST during the STONE AGE?? When people moved around and there was no concept of country, nation etc and had no idea where they were going or where they were geographically and maps weren't invented until thousands of years later?? Lol

    Cheddar man gets a brochure rock saying "Visit the Mavelous British Isles" translated from animal shape carvings lol

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    I honest to God don't get this. Didn't they hear about Loschbour and all the other WHG probably being darker than the incoming Anatolian farmers?

    Anyone following population genetics even in a cursory fashion would have heard about it.



    Is it because he wasn't portrayed as being quite as dark? Do a few shades make so much difference as to get hysterical about it?



    This has turned out to be such a depressing thread, depressing and sad. I'll never understand people like this if I live to be a hundred. I remember people on all the sites, this one, dna-forums, then anthrogenica, even the ones populated by out and out racists all fighting over how much WHG they had, and that WHG ancestry made you indigenous, and "actually", "really", European.

    The Spanish Stormfront members who used to post here were celebrating that they had more WHG than other Southern Europeans, and that's why they plotted so far "north" in Europe.

    Now, all of a sudden, he's toast. They only want to be descended from the SHG or the EHG. Well, I have news for them, those hunter-gatherers were part WHG, so there's no getting away from that ancestry, and the other part, well, calling it "European" is a bit of a stretch even geographically. It was also in the MN farmer populations. People, you're stuck with him and his genes, even if he turns out to have been quite dark.

  24. #74
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Till not so many years I heard that white skin was developed by Euro HG to allow Sun transform certain molecules into vitamins, I'm just amazed by the failure of such logics, but not so much amazed as white supremacists seeing that their blue eyes are from dark HG, their white skin from Anatolians, and their weaving blondish hair from Siberian HG... lol
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Sorry Angela, but as far as this thread is concerned...I ENJOY EVERY MINUTE!!! After all the horrendous posts from these nordicist scumbags attacking my ancestry it's karma time for these pigs!! I would readily pay to watch a clip of these low lifes turning pale in response to this as if they're children looking down in horror at an F grade marked on their report cards! I swear I would almost die laughing! Revenge is fun!

    Yes it is depressing in some ways, but the cackling hyena that I am, there's so much I can mock and poke fun at in this world and seeing the mindless reactions of these idiots in a panicked frenzy is a great example!

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