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Thread: First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin, Cheddar Man DNA analysis reveals

  1. #76
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Sorry Angela, but as far as this thread is concerned...I ENJOY EVERY MINUTE!!! After all the horrendous posts from these nordicist scumbags attacking my ancestry it's karma time for these pigs!! I would readily pay to watch a clip of these low lifes turning pale in response to this as if they're children looking down in horror at an F grade marked on their report cards! I swear I would almost die laughing! Revenge is fun!

    Yes it is depressing in some ways, but the cackling hyena that I am, there's so much I can mock and poke fun at in this world and seeing the mindless reactions of these idiots in a panicked frenzy is a great example!
    You've received an infraction, don't use inappropriate language! Also, I already warned you about galvanizing conflict. Cheddar man had dark skin, WHO CARES?! Do you consider dark-skin to be something people should be ashamed of? WHG ancestry is not something to use against people. Provocations like that only serve to thrust people into hateful resentment. You're acting no better than those nordicists you dislike; shaming others for their ancestry.

    EDIT:

    I am also opposed to noridicism, and racial supremacy of any kind, from any group. But vulgarity will not be used in this forum. This is an academic setting, it isn't the street or a flop-house.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 16-02-18 at 14:14.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I can't imagine Chris Stringer doing anything at all underhanded. Let's wait and see the paper. Maybe this sample lacks even some of the derived snps that other WHG possessed. Or maybe their calls were faulty somehow. We just don't know yet.

    Don't go believing everything you see on internet sites. A lot of it is authored by paranoid, delusional, agenda driven idiots on the internet who often are also just liars trying to cover up their own less than estimable behavior. I saw some things posted about me today that were just ludicrous. Of course, the posters didn't have the guts to come on here and say it to my "virtual" face. :) They're better at sending scurrilous, sexist, foul, disgusting pms full of gross anatomical terms. That way no one knows what they're really like.
    Chris Stringer is the man who first piqued my interest in prehistoric Britain and its ancient inhabitants, so I have nothing but respect for him

    I don't want to accuse anyone involved in the reconstruction of being deliberately deceitful, nor political. The media who have the responsibility of conveying this story to the public are a different story,
    and it wouldn't be unfair to say that here in Britain they've spun this story into something it isn't. I'm thinking mainly of their interviews on the streets with people of recent African and Asian origin, asking how it affects their notions of their own Britishness, rather than simply explaining how people like Cheddar Man melded with later arrivals in the Neolithic and Metal Ages and how those groups become the 'White British'

    It's sad that people are shunning WHG because of this one reconstruction, making statements such as "well, we only draw 10% of our genetic make-up from people like Cheddar Man", as if to say they're glad they're only 1/10th WHG now they're aware they weren't as fair as we are today in England.

    I personally consider it a wonderful thing to know at least some of my ancestors have been here, continuously, for over 10,000 years.

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    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...s-cheddar-cave

    Reading through this i find the science laughable. To me those cut marks look as though the bones were used as tools or maybe tied up and displayed, like the head on stake guys in sweden ?
    The cut marks look nothing like bones that had been stripped for consumption and these guys would have been highly skilled at butchery and would have left no trace what so ever.
    To read that they killed and ate him for an offer to a god and they must have boiled him because theres no evidence of fire. I mean come on lol.
    Do they have Enid blyton on there payroll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's some internet chat that he is yDna "C" of some sort, which wouldn't be at all surprising.

    Again, I can't confirm that.

    @Alcuin,
    I can't imagine Chris Stringer doing anything at all underhanded. Let's wait and see the paper. Maybe this sample lacks even some of the derived snps that other WHG possessed. Or maybe their calls were faulty somehow. We just don't know yet.

    Don't go believing everything you see on internet sites. A lot of it is authored by paranoid, delusional, agenda driven idiots on the internet who often are also just liars trying to cover up their own less than estimable behavior. I saw some things posted about me today that were just ludicrous. Of course, the posters didn't have the guts to come on here and say it to my "virtual" face. :) They're better at sending scurrilous, sexist, foul, disgusting pms full of gross anatomical terms. That way no one knows what they're really like.
    if it were not for Chris Stringer, I'd say this whole presentation is made by a bunch of sensationalist TV makers
    it is certainly made in such style, and it worked, they get a lot of attention
    let's await the scientific paper to see if this very dark, almost black skin is realistic and how they come to their claim that these people came from Africa via the Middle East
    any idea when this paper will be published?

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    Not arguing against the infraction (yes i understand I was acting out and I deserve it) but no, I don't see dark skin as something to be ashamed of (I found it cool he had dark skin in an earlier post in this thread). I was laughing at their reactions after realizing that their ancestors were darker than they wanted them to be and felt that their sense of shame was justified punishment.

    And I have WHG ancestry myself which I'm totally cool with, whether they resembled Nigerians or pale as ghosts.

    I do apologize for galvanizing conflict, I'll be more careful next time.

    Yes I did stir up conflict regardless of where I was going with that last post and I'll accept punishment, but I'll be happy if everyone is now convinced that I wasn't shaming anyone of having ancestry I have myself in that post, though I can see how it can be interpreted that way.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin, Cheddar Man DNA analysis reveals

    When the occasion arise it feels really good to "Stick it to the Man".
    Some people deserve to be humiliated.
    Most Academics think of themselves as always been more civil than the “People”, and we should take the High Road, and take the abuse.
    We must respond to the “Wrong”.
    Let the chips fall where they may!
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Unbelievable there's been such outrage that scientists have been forced to release a FACTS page ahead of the airing of the show, and way in advance of any paper that will ultimately be published.

    See:
    http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/our...r-man-faq.html

    "We were able to extract enough information from Cheddar Man’s DNA to run it through a forensic tool that predicts differences in the level of skin pigmentation in modern world populations3. The results indicated that Cheddar Man’s skin pigmentation was most likely in one of the two most highly-pigmented of five categories ('dark' or 'dark to black'), and definitely not in the lightest categories."

    "
    Is Cheddar Man actually an escaped slave or a tourist from Africa?

    No! The bones of Cheddar Man have been radiocarbon dated twice, and on both occasions the results indicate that he died around 10,000 years ago7."

    Un-freaking believable.

    Yes, we can get dna, no, this pigmentation is not unusual for a WHG, and yes, you have WHG in you, even if not directly from "Cheddar Man". As we already said, "Therefore the majority of western European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers ancestry that we see in modern British people probably originates from populations who lived all over Europe during the Mesolithic, which was carried into Britain by these later migrations.."

    They even posted a link to the raw pigmentation data. Now some obsessed racist will run it through some other forensic test and announce that Cheddar Man's skin color was dark intermediate instead of very dark, which will enable him to finally sleep, given that he's spent years boasting about how much WHG his people have...

    Can't make it up folks.




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Unbelievable there's been such outrage that scientists have been forced to release a FACTS page ahead of the airing of the show, and way in advance of any paper that will ultimately be published.

    See:
    http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/our...r-man-faq.html

    "We were able to extract enough information from Cheddar Man’s DNA to run it through a forensic tool that predicts differences in the level of skin pigmentation in modern world populations3. The results indicated that Cheddar Man’s skin pigmentation was most likely in one of the two most highly-pigmented of five categories ('dark' or 'dark to black'), and definitely not in the lightest categories."

    "
    Is Cheddar Man actually an escaped slave or a tourist from Africa?

    No! The bones of Cheddar Man have been radiocarbon dated twice, and on both occasions the results indicate that he died around 10,000 years ago7."

    Un-freaking believable.

    Yes, we can get dna, no, this pigmentation is not unusual for a WHG, and yes, you have WHG in you, even if not directly from "Cheddar Man". As we already said, "Therefore the majority of western European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers ancestry that we see in modern British people probably originates from populations who lived all over Europe during the Mesolithic, which was carried into Britain by these later migrations.."

    They even posted a link to the raw pigmentation data. Now some obsessed racist will run it through some other forensic test and announce that Cheddar Man's skin color was dark intermediate instead of very dark, which will enable him to finally sleep, given that he's spent years boasting about how much WHG his people have...

    Can't make it up folks.


    Can I call it or can I call it? :)

    Despite not having access to the latest 36 snp algorithm used to make the prediction, it must be wrong. It's not a good test. I like my three years older algorithm better. Could it be because in that one my ancestors come out light brown to medium brown instead of dark brown?

    There's no conspiracy here, folks. They used the latest forensic algorithm, with the most number of snps I've ever seen. It predicts dark brown skin.

    Whatever use has been made of their work, the researchers didn't do anything wrong here.

    It's time to think of more important things, imo.

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    Did anyone really think he would not have dark skin? When was La Brana released, 2013? WHG pigmentation has been known for a long time now.

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    First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin, Cheddar Man DNA analysis reveals

    We should assume that the Algorithms use on Cheddar Man is correct.
    But sometimes Algorithms can be wrong: The Eyes Predictions on Gedmatch has my eyes Blue/Grayish, but my eyes are Brown. (Maybe because my mother has Green Eyes).

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    OK this is me just bullshitting.

    We've all known for awhile that WHG was genetically determined to be dark skinned with blue eyes. This recent article was just a sensationalized PC industrial complexed, dumbed down, misleading reminder as many on here obviously realize. I think even when we read the papers and discussed them on here the first time most of us found it hard to believe that WHG in paleolithic Europe would look like a Tamil. Given Europeans today it seemed like such an extreme shift, but it seems to be the case, and this should actually fascinate people. As far as we now know the sort of light features that we see in modern Europeans didn't appear until at the latest (earliest evidence) 7000 BP in NE Europe/steppe (Samara HG being the first light hair/white skin combination found), so WHG and older paleo euros being very dark shouldn't be a shock.

    Y DNA C lines appear to be among the earliest Non-basal Eurasian lines to spread into Eurasia. We see them in paleoeuropeans and surviving in large percentages among present day Australoids/South Asians and Siberians/East Asians.

    Kostenki comes to mind. Many said that his Skull resembled Ancestral south Indian/Australoids more than anything and he was also determined to be very dark with Y HG C. So keeping with these findings I think it's reasonable to imagine that WHG looked the most like ASI/Australoids with blue eyes. I'm also pretty sure that Australoids have slippery depigmentation phenotypes pop up from time to time.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Not arguing against the infraction (yes i understand I was acting out and I deserve it) but no, I don't see dark skin as something to be ashamed of (I found it cool he had dark skin in an earlier post in this thread). I was laughing at their reactions after realizing that their ancestors were darker than they wanted them to be and felt that their sense of shame was justified punishment.

    And I have WHG ancestry myself which I'm totally cool with, whether they resembled Nigerians or pale as ghosts.

    I do apologize for galvanizing conflict, I'll be more careful next time.

    Yes I did stir up conflict regardless of where I was going with that last post and I'll accept punishment, but I'll be happy if everyone is now convinced that I wasn't shaming anyone of having ancestry I have myself in that post, though I can see how it can be interpreted that way.
    I definitely understood what you were saying, there was nothing even remotely racist in your posts, and if it is somehow wrong or inappropriate to laughi at Nordicists having to grudgingly reconcile themselves and their outdated and fanciful pseudo-science with modern real science... well, then I'm in a big trouble now. LOL

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The color of the skin of paleolithic europeans should be completely irrelevent in modern political discussions. In who's mind saying Late Paleololithic European Sapiens were Black, legitimize modern african immigration into Europe ? Also, in who's mind, being conservative or in the political right, means being a Pure Race or a Master Race ? Sometimes, i dont understand how some people think, this is so much against common sens, and filled with emotions of guilty. I was thinking for a time, that it was just the far-left Antifascists than was making rambling for nothing, but i also notice some far right guys or conservative, thinking some bullshit things about history and feel if those guys were aware of the truth, they would change their mind by guilty, and it's sad, it's sad how people cant just put their emotions away in serious topics like mass immigration and multiculturalism being a complete destruction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I definitely understood what you were saying, there was nothing even remotely racist in your posts, and if it is somehow wrong or inappropriate to laughi at Nordicists having to grudgingly reconcile themselves and their outdated and fanciful pseudo-science with modern real science... well, then I'm in a big trouble now. LOL
    Just to make everything clear, the issue wasn't about poking fun at nordicists, it was how I did it. I was using sloppy words which aren't allowed in a thread like this. Whether I was poking fun at neo nazis or a group of charitable nuns, the outcome would've been the same.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin, Cheddar Man DNA analysis reveals

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Just to make everything clear, the issue wasn't about poking fun at nordicists, it was how I did it. I was using sloppy words which aren't allowed in a thread like this. Whether I was poking fun at neo nazis or a group of charitable nuns, the outcome would've been the same.
    You said what so many of us Thinks, but don’t say it. We Filter the Thought. It was Refreshing if you ask Me.

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    The facts still remind us that there's more than one truth to what came before. The fact that we may be exaggerating is testament to how supremacy"s black, white, or yellow is still alive and well and this wasn't there first encounter. The funny part is that someone's sitting in their ivory tower preaching against what the new truths challenge. Thanks for sharing hopefully it adds to a more positive reflection in everyone's mirrors.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Sorry Angela, but as far as this thread is concerned...I ENJOY EVERY MINUTE!!! After all the horrendous posts from these nordicist scumbags attacking my ancestry it's karma time for these pigs!! I would readily pay to watch a clip of these low lifes turning pale in response to this as if they're children looking down in horror at an F grade marked on their report cards! I swear I would almost die laughing! Revenge is fun!

    Yes it is depressing in some ways, but the cackling hyena that I am, there's so much I can mock and poke fun at in this world and seeing the mindless reactions of these idiots in a panicked frenzy is a great example!
    That statement speaks for itself, I don't even have to reply. But I will say as a "Nordic" which is just the French word for North, why would you automatically relate it to neo-nazi? I will freely use that word as it has no original connotation to "neo-nazism" and I will freely call myself "Nordic"

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    First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin, Cheddar Man DNA analysis reveals

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed the Red View Post
    That statement speaks for itself, I don't even have to reply. But I will say as a "Nordic" which is just the French word for North, why would you automatically relate it to neo-nazi? I will freely use that word as it has no original connotation to "neo-nazism" and I will freely call myself "Nordic"
    Neo-Nazis and others, somehow have appropriated the word Nordic for themselves.
    So there you go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed the Red View Post
    That statement speaks for itself, I don't even have to reply. But I will say as a "Nordic" which is just the French word for North, why would you automatically relate it to neo-nazi? I will freely use that word as it has no original connotation to "neo-nazism" and I will freely call myself "Nordic"
    No worries, that post wasn't an attack on any ethnic group whatsoever as i respect every ethnicity. I was talking about "nordicists" (not Nordics) aka people who find other ethnic backgrounds and races inferior to Northern Europeans.

    I respect every ethnicity, including those that fall under the Nordic category.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    No worries, that post wasn't an attack on any ethnic group whatsoever as i respect every ethnicity. I was talking about "nordicists" (not Nordics) aka people who find other ethnic backgrounds and races inferior to Northern Europeans.

    I respect every ethnicity, including those that fall under the Nordic category.
    Stop Apologizing. I assure you that the majority “Think” exactly what you said. We just Don’t say it, because of the Rules.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Stop Apologizing. I assure you that the majority “Think” exactly what you said. We just Don’t say it, because of the Rules.
    what is it that you don't dare to say?
    anything can be said here, as long as it is something meaningfull and it is said in a polite and respectful way

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You don't need to use foul language to express yourself. It's particularly inappropriate in a setting like this.

    It's also inappropriate to be challenging moderation in this way. The rules are the rules. If people don't want to abide by them, if they feel they are stifling their "real" selves, perhaps they should consider expressing their "real" selves elsewhere, with people with the same kind of standards, or lack of them, perhaps.

    Now I think we've had enough of milking the sympathy.

    Please get back on topic.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what is it that you don't dare to say?
    anything can be said here, as long as it is something meaningfull and it is said in a polite and respectful way
    Do you speak the words exactly as you Think them?
    Do any of You do That?
    Do You Filter your sentence as you wright or speak?
    The Answers are Obvious.
    Dare this, and dare that.
    Should I dare you to tell me exactly what you think about me right now? No Filter.
    And by the way I broke no rules.
    I agreed with a member Post. That’s it.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Do you speak the words exactly as you Think them?
    Do any of You do That?
    Do You Filter your sentence as you wright or speak?
    The Answers are Obvious.
    Dare this, and dare that.
    Should I dare you to tell me exactly what you think about me right now? No Filter.
    And by the way I broke no rules.
    I agreed with a member Post. That’s it.
    It would be considered breaking the rules if you continue to go off topic. Now, let's get back to discussing Cheddar man.

  25. #100
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    A fairly tame discussion on the development of light features in NE Europe can be found in this thread about some Baltic and Ukrainian samples. Among these samples (and Samara HG) we're probably seeing the very first individuals with depigmented traits approaching what we see in Europe today, which seem to have been spread through Corded Ware->LMBA Steppe and Bell Beaker.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-Early-Europea

    I'm sure most of you recall this thread.

    Won't derail with IE comments but I'm tempted.

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