First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin, Cheddar Man DNA analysis reveals

They waffled a bit? You mean they tweaked things bc people were whining about their findings?

Waffled..I'll have to google that! It can't have anything to do with those tasty eggos I used to drown in almost half a bottle of syrup as a kid
 
Now they will say that he came from the Iberian Peninsula.

No wonder, we will pass the Iberians from having nothing of WHG (according to Haak's graph) to be the origin of this component.

If it is true that this WHG has been painted too dark.


The WHG of Bra?a was dark but not so much.
 
[QUOTE = ThirdTerm; 531824] Supongo que Cheddar Man era un pariente genético cercano de La Brana 1, una persona de 7.000 años de edad del sitio La Brana-Arintero en Valdelugueros (León, España). El análisis de ADN de Bryan Sykes concluyó previamente que Cheddar Man tenía ADNmt haplogrupo U5. La Brana 1 llevó el haplogrupo C6-V20 de Y-DNA, un clado europeo de haplogrupo C de baja frecuencia encontrado en menos del 0.1% de los europeos en la actualidad, y el haplogrupo de mtDNA U5b2c1 (Olalde et al., 2014). Cheddar Man también puede haber portado Y-DNA haplogroup C6, lo que explica su pigmentación de piel más oscura en comparación con los europeos modernos. Pero dado su ascendencia materna del ADN típica en el norte de Europa, el color de su piel puede haber sido de color marrón claro en lugar de negro.


La_Brana_face2_small.png
[/CITAR]

Really in Spain did not cause so much commotion the news. Leon has been given a European appearance, blue eyes, skin that seems tanned, those contrasts have always been liked in Spain, light eyes, dark skin, light skin, dark eyes; Although today we find contrasts, maybe they are the originals. I do not know if the facial reconstruction of Leon's man will be well done seeing the result of English. The result of Leon's man seems to me like Heidi's grandfather, and in the English result I see a cannibal. I think a good facial reconstruction of the remains of Spain should be done to compare them with the other one from England. By the way the English man has remembered Brad Pitt, I have seen Brad Pitt after observing him for a while.
 
Yes, indeed, the resemblance between Brad Pitt and Cheddar Man is overwhelming, apart, of course, from the nose, the cheek bones, the shape of the face, and the cheekbones, leaving aside the pigmentation. :) The only similarity I see is the eyes and maybe the jaw.

young-brad-pitt.jpg


cheddarman-facialreconstruction.jpg



People, the WHG are outside of modern variation, in appearance as well as general genomics.

As for the route of their entrance into Britain, I don't know. Obviously they came from the continent over the land bridge. All the WHG form a cluster so I don't see how it matters. How times have changed, though. Our ex-Spanish Stormfront members were constantly bragging about how much WHG they had, which made them more authocthonous, and which was why they plotted further "north" than other Southern Europeans. Who knew dark skin would make the WHG pariahs all of a sudden?
 
^^ To Ángela

Obviously they are not going to be a tracing, but I have seen in addition to a certain physical resemblance a deeper essence. It is as if you draw a picture of a European-looking man or woman drinking coffee, for example for the illustration of an article, you can make silhouettes in black, white, red, blue or orange, you will continue to see and recognize that they are a couple of The same thing is true if you make an Afro couple of green color still wearing the European one, you will recognize that they are two black people. And seeing that Englishman from the past to my mind has come Brad Pitt instantly, it's like that, I can not give him an explanation, and if he has come for something he is.
To myself in one of those forums I got the correspondence with the actor and producer Kim Coates.

What happens with the stormform Spaniards (I did not know what it was but I looked for it) would be a socio-cultural question, which would have its origin in a wealth of historical circumstances where the breeding ground was created in the era of the Legend black, too many enemies, much anger and hatred saved against Spain, the wick would be all those romantic European travelers who suddenly become fond of the Arab world, travel to Spain and look for Arab characteristics in any corner and where they had not, and in their stories they tell fantasies giving Spain an identity that it does not possess. They come to relate that the peasants of Almeria have appearance and dress like those of the Maghreb, they also see Arab vestiges in Barcelona, ​​and so they invent and create an idea of ​​Spain where the Europeans of the time form an erroneous opinion about Spain, then comes the isolation of 40 years of dictatorship where some European countries take off and Spain left behind all the past demos over Spain, too many enemies in the past, one less competition, the black legend, the invented stories of European travelers that showed Spain and the paralysis of the country in the dictatorship give us the coup de grace to ensure that Spain is different, Africa starts in the Pyrenees and all that.

And even happens with the discovery and colonization of Europe, possibly we did better than the English and yet it seems that now we must also excuse ourselves, in the somewhat recent age the corrupt Latin American governments blamed colonial Spain for its Dantesque situation, to cover their corrupt gestures before their populations, and the certain thing is that once enmancipados the people in charge are themselves not us. After the Jewish expulsions and Muslims, especially by the Jews or Isrrael we get greater signs of discontent for that past. In short it is the payment for having been a great world power and should be the reasons why these Spaniards try to recover their rightful place as just another European, which is the continent where Spain is, no less than Europe.
 
That's an amateur made analysis, not an academic one.



Haak et al based on actual ancient samples:

Haak-et-al-2015-Figure-3-Admixture-Proportions-in-Modern-DNA-With-Linguistic-and-Historical-Origins-Added.png


Most of the WHG survival was in the far north-east, which was not suitable to the Neolithic farming package.

If you wanted to know the total hunter-gatherer, you'd have to take from 50 to 60% of the Yamnaya figure, which would be EHG.

Anyone know of a more recent simple break down of modern populations?

so that would actually mean that northern europeans, scots scandinavians have the highest amount of hunter gatherer admixture. take in the fact that there is quite a lot of admixture missing in this graphic like north african or west asian and the difference in this admixture would be even higher. i'm 75% southern european myself and i think its kinda sad that this HG admixture gets diluted even further by me. well i guess ill have to go back to italy or spain.

what about this graphic:
http://pichoster.net/images/2014/06/22/europe.png
here it looks almost as if EEF were something in between modern middle eastern people and WHG.

also about the eye colour part. when i wiki blue eye colour the earlies hunter gatherer with blues eyes was la brana. now its this guy. estimates for the age of the mutation are 6000-10000 years. since the cheddar is estimated to be 9200 years old it now should be 9000-10000 years. or maybe more than 10000.
 
That color chart is just one of those that are used normally in forensics. It's based on probabilities. Most "very fair" skinned people in modern populations are blue eyed. However, not all. I'm in category one and have brown eyes. It's not common, but it happens.

dimples-on-chin.jpg
6369135_f520.jpg


If you go to the text of the paper and scroll down you'll see the color chart the authors of that paper were using. The actual test based on that probably has a shortened chart. Regardless, the strong probability based on 36 snps was dark brown-black. Based on current knowledge of pigmentation that's as much as they can say.

It would be interesting to see the prediction for samples like Loschbour, LaBrana, Bichon, Villabruna, etc., to see if there was some variation among the WHG. This test wasn't available when those studies and predictions were published.
Hum, isn't the second woman looking very similar to that one mesolithic reconstructed woman ?
 
Can someone help me understand this? I thought British people had about 35-40% ancestry from WHGs, according to the Eurogenes EEF-WHG-ANE. Is that test now outdated due to new research?

isn't that test also including baltic, eastern hunter gatherers in this % number? then it would be correct. they may have even more than that. scots seem to have almost 50%. baltics even more. looks almost like 60-70%.
now it makes sense why baltics are so strong weight lifters. also why italians and other southern europeans are more gracile than northerners.
 
so that would actually mean that northern europeans, scots scandinavians have the highest amount of hunter gatherer admixture. take in the fact that there is quite a lot of admixture missing in this graphic like north african or west asian and the difference in this admixture would be even higher. i'm 75% southern european myself and i think its kinda sad that this HG admixture gets diluted even further by me. well i guess ill have to go back to italy or spain.

what about this graphic:
http://pichoster.net/images/2014/06/22/europe.png
here it looks almost as if EEF were something in between modern middle eastern people and WHG.

also about the eye colour part. when i wiki blue eye colour the earlies hunter gatherer with blues eyes was la brana. now its this guy. estimates for the age of the mutation are 6000-10000 years. since the cheddar is estimated to be 9200 years old it now should be 9000-10000 years. or maybe more than 10000.

Cheddar Man, who is estimated to be 2,000 years older, is predicted to be hazel-eyed, so evolution continued.

No, the WHG wouldn't be higher. Those other "clusters" are probably in EEF and ANE.

As for being "sad" that your WHG has been diluted, I find that a rather bizarre attitude, I'm sorry to say. How about being proud of what you are?

In terms of the PCA, we've known for a couple of years that the earliest Neolithic people in Europe picked up about 10% WHG pretty soon. After that the EEF weren't in any hurry to mix, but after about 2,000 years the European farmers (M and LN) were about 25% WHG.

You might want to read the papers in the thread for newbies.
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/19/c5/87/19c5872f85a6bff010ad3da57eabe016.jpg


See:

@Half-Alp,

That was the Greek Mesolithic sample, to the best of my recollection.
488086A300000578-5302753-image-m-33_1516734276945.jpg

19c5872f85a6bff010ad3da57eabe016.jpg


Yes, she does a bit, imo. I think I said when it first came out that I thought that was the most "modern" looking Mesolithic hunter-gatherer I'd seen, in face shape, length, nose etc., and I wondered if she had a bit of ANF.


The modern women are both actresses: Sandra Bullock first and then the English actress Michele Dockery of Downtown Abbey fame.
 
He would think like. "Why are these people making a big fuss about my skin colour, I look the same just like everyone else"
Or he might perceive the internet connected computer/phone as a means of communicating with the gods and erect a shrine devoted to it ;).

But yes, if he were to say what you have in quotes, he'd be right!
 
In my view the Neareastern immigrants to old europe had light skin not dark skin one group in southern iberia is responsible for darker skin in old europeans this trend continued until IE immigrants in 2700 bc tiped the balance in favour of light skin. Even then the number of haplogroup E carriers in iberia were little yet they had big impact on skin colour when mixed with Native europeans somehow. So genetically the Cheddar man is more than 90% European in my view for his Mtdna and in all probability his ydna is Caucasian. Having this in mind his skin color should be brown or light brown not dark.
 
In my view the Neareastern immigrants to old europe had light skin not dark skin one group in southern iberia is responsible for darker skin in old europeans this trend continued until IE immigrants in 2700 bc tiped the balance in favour of light skin. Even then the number of haplogroup E carriers in iberia were little yet they had big impact on skin colour when mixed with Native europeans somehow. So genetically the Cheddar man is more than 90% European in my view for his Mtdna and in all probability his ydna is Caucasian. Having this in mind his skin color should be brown or light brown not dark.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say " one group in southern iberia is responsible for darker skin in old europeans". If you mean the WHG they were all over western Europe. WHG were probably darker skinned than the first farmers to arrive in Europe, but SHG and EHG also had lighter pigmentation.

"Native Europeans", at least in western Europe, were the darkest skinned of the ancient groups. Y dna "E" has nothing to do with any of this. The WHG carried either yDna "C" or "I2". The farmers carried predominantly "G2a".

At any rate, natural selection is the "cause", and it increased the proportions of light skinned alleles over time.

You might want to read all the genetics papers in this list, and the latest pigmentation paper as well.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...Population-Genetics/page2?p=534204#post534204

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-on-Human-Pigmentation?highlight=pigmentation
 
^^ to Parafarne

The Iberian peninsula was long in coming to the fore as responsible for the 7 plagues of Egypt. I do not know what group he refers to in southern Iberia that was responsible for dark skin in Europe, anyway it would have been a feat. Chaddman's mother thought that it should be almost black because if it were clearer the boy would have left more mulatto, not so chocolate.
 
I was pointing to almagra culture in extreme southern iberia that came from morocco to iberia and were then replaced by dominant WHG culture, so I thought in this time HG I2 were mixed with old form of HG E in Iberia refuge when Northwest europe were very cold and got little darker than other groups of hunter gatherers before migrating to Northwest europe , its just theory yet to be proven of course.yes Cheddar's ydna is either I or C. Think if EHG, SHG were only light brown then why WHG were darker they came from one source.
 
[QUOTE = Parafarne; 534338] Estaba apuntando a la cultura almagra en el extremo sur de iberia que vino de Marruecos a iberia y luego fue reemplazada por la cultura WHG dominante, así que pensé en este momento que HG I2 se mezcló con la forma antigua de HG E en Iberia refugio cuando la Europa noroccidental hacía mucho frío y se oscurecía un poco más que otros grupos de cazadores recolectores antes de emigrar a la Europa noroccidental, su teoría es aún no probada, por supuesto. Si ydna de Cheddar es I o C. Piensa si EHG, SHG eran solo luz marrón, por qué WHG eran más oscuros, provenían de una fuente. [/ QUOTE]


​It is a hypothesis that has been retaken; although it could also be the other way around, an export from southern Spain to North Africa. The fashions or methods in the manufacture of ceramics can be adopted, exported or imported without necessarily having an ethnic group located in the place, issue that could solve the genetics but I see that it does not know how to solve it either.

A current simile would be like in the current Spanish society or from the age of maybe 70 onward American culture influences the population, through the t.v. with series like "Eight Is Enough" where young people of the popular mass learn that you have to brush your teeth after every meal. Or series like Colombo where we saw that they asked for Chinese food, Pizzas or spaghetti, we did not know what it was, they also took it home, decades later that way of life is the order of the day in Spain, you could say that America in that sense reculturized in advances to Spain more than the rest of rich European countries that only came and saw Spain by the sun and the beach. Currently in the huge amount of television channels that exist in Spain are broadcast TV series and movies 24 hours a day of American origin, many Spaniards of the populace feel more Americans than Europeans, have more American mental patterns than Europeans. And all that without having a single American group, without an American genetic fingerprint in Spain, what do you think?
 
Seems counteractive that a person with blue eyes, would be climatically adapted with "dark to black skin."
I suspect politicization of this issue.
 
The almagra numbers were very little in iberia and in extreme south so they were likely immgrants from N.africa having in mind that E-81 is more in N.africa than in Iberia.
 
[QUOTE = Parafarne; 534338] ...
..., many Spaniards of the populace feel more Americans than Europeans, have more American mental patterns than Europeans. And all that without having a single American group, without an American genetic fingerprint in Spain, what do you think?

I think that TV and cellulars was not already very present in those times. Not to erase completely your way of thinking, but to relativize things
 
^^ Evidentemente.

l 0 l

Referring to the great mass, the working class, there would probably be a minimal upper or upper middle class that would be more modernized but did not share their customs with the lower classes; I mean that people showered, then more bathing, to fill the bathtub with water once a week at the most, there were many mouths with tartar on the teeth and many flaps of coats full of dandruff, and with the culture American television and film people learned to take showers every day or at least more than once a week along with other everyday customs that were worthwhile, but of the Europeans we learned only to sunbathe excessively and perhaps the first steps towards sexual freedom with hundreds of Spaniards moving to Perpignan to see Emmanuelle.

In the past there were no mobile phones or movies or TVs. but the fashions would arrive later but they would extend in the same way at the end.
 

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