First modern Britons had 'dark to black' skin, Cheddar Man DNA analysis reveals

[Messier 67]

If they released the Y-DNA haplogroup we would not be having this discussion. An I black European is nearly laughable. IJK were most likely whitish before Y-DNA I entered into Europe. I doubt there would be any scholars depicting Y-DNA I as black, even 8000 BCE. Indonesians (from K2) have light colored skin and have never generationally been in Northern Latitudes. If we are talking about a C in Europe that is a completely different story. The Aborigines are C and if they depicted the specimen from Cheddar... dark, but not as dark as some Aborigines, then there would be some plausibility to it.

And it has been said in other places they only looked at two genes for whiteness that Europeans have. Can this be verified. Do the Indonesians have these two "white genes". If not, there are other determining DNA factors to not have near black or black skin.

 

[Ygorcs]

If they released the Y-DNA haplogroup we would not be having this discussion. An I black European is nearly laughable. IJK were most likely whitish before Y-DNA I entered into Europe. I doubt there would be any scholars depicting Y-DNA I as black, even 8000 BCE. Indonesians (from K2) have light colored skin and have never generationally been in Northern Latitudes. If we are talking about a C in Europe that is a completely different story. The Aborigines are C and if they depicted the specimen from Cheddar... dark, but not as dark as some Aborigines, then there would be some plausibility to it.

And it has been said in other places they only looked at two genes for whiteness that Europeans have. Can this be verified. Do the Indonesians have these two "white genes". If not, there are other determining DNA factors to not have near black or black skin.

This does not make sense. Y-DNA haplogroups do not have a skin color. They're just a marker of one chromosome that has nothing to do with the pigmentation alleles that do influence the skin color of individuals. Many R1b people are so white that they can't even tan, and many other R1b people (Central Africa) are extremely dark-skinned. To talk about "IJK people" having this or that skin color is a clear misunderstanding of how genetics work, especially when you're talking about the skin color of modern people that we can see and using them as a reference to how people looked 10,000 years ago or even much earlier if you are referring to IJK people when its descendant haplogroups did not even exist (certainly more than 30,000 years ago). Such a strategy can't reach a credible conclusion.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I think there's some exaggeration going on here. Black skin?

I'd have to see all the snps, but he might have typical WHG like snps.

I agree with Angela but I'll go farther: in France, newspapers and TV as a rule don't understand the matter they are talking about (in human sciences), without any specific intention for the most. In Britain and anglo-saxon world, I fear they had the habits to exaggerate, making "scoops" of every human science new, even the BBC: kind of electroshock everytime it's possible. And some scientists, as Sykes by instance, are specialists of the "scoop". Maybe I go too far, do I?
I rather think this man had a veddoid-like skin at the most and was close physically to his time HG's of West Europe. Concerning the supposed Near-Eastern origin, I'm without clue: N-E origin, yes, but when exactly?

French paleo-geneticist Céline Bon at the Musée de l'Homme in Paris in a recent interview with France's Le Figaro.



"Si ce n'est pas impossible, pour Céline Bon, paléogénéticienne au Musée de l'Homme, le nouveau buste de ce chasseur-cueilleur dévoilé la semaine dernière ressemble plus «à une opération de communication, qu'à un travail scientifique».

(...)

Ces résultats ne surprennent pas forcément la communauté mais des chercheurs s'interrogent néanmoins sur la méthode utilisée. «Chris Stringer et son équipe sont des gens sérieux, mais objectivement, ça ressemble plus à une opération de communication qu'à autre chose.» Aucune publication scientifique n'est en effet associé à cette annonce fracassante. Le Musée d'Histoire Naturelle de Londres a dévoilé le nouveau buste et annoncé un documentaire diffusé sur Channel 4 (voir ci-dessous), mais aucune publication ne vient détailler les travaux effectués pour arriver à ces conclusions."

Source: Le Figaro


Vincent Bordenave, «Cheddar Man» : l'ancêtre des Britanniques avait-il la peau noire ?; le 13/02/2018 à 20:00

http://www.lefigaro.fr/sciences/201...e-des-britanniques-avait-il-la-peau-noire.php

 

[Jovialis]

French paleo-geneticist Céline Bon at the Musée de l'Homme in Paris in a recent interview with France's Le Figaro.



"Si ce n'est pas impossible, pour Céline Bon, paléogénéticienne au Musée de l'Homme, le nouveau buste de ce chasseur-cueilleur dévoilé la semaine dernière ressemble plus «à une opération de communication, qu'à un travail scientifique».

(...)

Ces résultats ne surprennent pas forcément la communauté mais des chercheurs s'interrogent néanmoins sur la méthode utilisée. «Chris Stringer et son équipe sont des gens sérieux, mais objectivement, ça ressemble plus à une opération de communication qu'à autre chose.» Aucune publication scientifique n'est en effet associé à cette annonce fracassante. Le Musée d'Histoire Naturelle de Londres a dévoilé le nouveau buste et annoncé un documentaire diffusé sur Channel 4 (voir ci-dessous), mais aucune publication ne vient détailler les travaux effectués pour arriver à ces conclusions."

Source: Le Figaro


Vincent Bordenave, «Cheddar Man» : l'ancêtre des Britanniques avait-il la peau noire ?; le 13/02/2018 à 20:00

http://www.lefigaro.fr/sciences/201...e-des-britanniques-avait-il-la-peau-noire.php

Indeed, it's not a surprise to researchers, who have known about the phenotype of WHGs for sometime now. As the quote you have posted states.

This whole media storm demonstrates how superficial reporters can be in presenting a story. Moreover, how solely relying on generic news sources, and not reading the peer-reviewed academic papers on the matter can be misleading. All of the news outlets have failed to address the nuances of genetics, and are hyper-focused on the phenotype of the WHG. Indeed WHGs had a dark skin complexion, but genetically Cheddar man is far from a sub-Saharan African. It makes me cringe to see the reactions of both news outlets behaving like trashy tabloids, and conspiracy-theorist commentators that don’t accept the fact that WHGs had a dark complexion. For the news outlets to say he was Black-skinned is a loaded statement, nevertheless he was indeed dark-skinned.

 

[Angela]

Some commentary from around the web:

"Leftist will put Europeans to an unfair standard of if everyone who lived on your land in the last 40,000 years wasn't exactly like you then you have no real claim to your land. Or if some of your ancestors lived in exotic lands (Middle East) then you're not actually European."

Everyone in Europe has ancestry from the Middle East, most from very ancient times, some relatively more recently.

I guess no one in Europe is "actually" European.

Unbelievable.

Ed. Sorry, the quotation mark was in the wrong place. It's now corrected.

 

[Jovialis]

Some commentary from around the web:

"Leftist will put Europeans to an unfair standard of if everyone who lived on your land in the last 40,000 years wasn't exactly like you then you have no real claim to your land. Or if some of your ancestors lived in exotic lands (Middle East) then you're not actually European."

Everyone in Europe has ancestry from the Middle East, most from very ancient times, some relatively more recently.

I guess no one in Europe is "actually" European.

Unbelievable.

It's a real shame that people don't bother reading the peer-reviewed academic papers. The person that wrote that must have completely no understanding of genetics, if they think they don't have ancestors from the middle east from ancient populations. This is what happens when people mix racism, science, and fringe-political rhetoric; they have these woefully ignorant conclusions that are a projection of their own inferiority complex.

 

[davef]

There's a 45 page thread already on anthrogenica surrounding this finding, lol. Imagine the posts that make up those pages...

Yes and saying that early farmers from the Middle East aren't European would make most Europeans roughly 1/2 European. Let's throw in the Steppe people with their Caucasus hunter and gatherer background, and Europeans north to south are even less European. This is the new "logic".

 

[Alcuin]

Everything is not a PC conspiracy, and I say that as someone who is very anti-PC thinking generally speaking..........That said, I don't know why they made the bust so "black"

In my opinion, precisely because they are influenced by their political beliefs. As you know, 'black' is not an accurate term at all, genetically-speaking, hence why Australian Aborigines are considered 'black' by many, despite being more distantly related to sub-Saharan Africans than the latter are to Europeans, Amerindians or Han Chinese.I expected Cheddar Man to be brown, perhaps akin to a darker Arab or maybe a Veddoid Indian. It should not look like a Congolose with blue contacts in.

 

[Angela]

There's some internet chat that he is yDna "C" of some sort, which wouldn't be at all surprising.

Again, I can't confirm that.

@Alcuin,
I can't imagine Chris Stringer doing anything at all underhanded. Let's wait and see the paper. Maybe this sample lacks even some of the derived snps that other WHG possessed. Or maybe their calls were faulty somehow. We just don't know yet.

Don't go believing everything you see on internet sites. A lot of it is authored by paranoid, delusional, agenda driven idiots on the internet who often are also just liars trying to cover up their own less than estimable behavior. I saw some things posted about me today that were just ludicrous. Of course, the posters didn't have the guts to come on here and say it to my "virtual" face. They're better at sending scurrilous, sexist, foul, disgusting pms full of gross anatomical terms. That way no one knows what they're really like.

 

[davef]

There's some internet chat that he is yDna "C" of some sort, which wouldn't be at all surprising.

Again, I can't confirm that.

@Alcuin,
I can't imagine Chris Stringer doing anything at all underhanded. Let's wait and see the paper. Maybe this sample lacks even some of the derived snps that other WHG possessed. Or maybe their calls were faulty somehow. We just don't know yet.

Don't go believing everything you see on internet sites. A lot of it is authored by paranoid, delusional, agenda driven idiots on the internet who often are also just liars trying to cover up their own less than estimable behavior. I saw some things posted about me today that were just ludicrous. Of course, the posters didn't have the guts to come on here and say it to my "virtual" face. They're better at sending scurrilous, sexist, foul, disgusting pms full of gross anatomical terms. That way no one knows what they're really like.

They're sore losers and nothing more; like those who want to play 52 pick up after losing a poker game

 

[Salento]

My favorite bs story is the Cheddar Man was just visiting.
Obviously he was a Lost Tourist and somehow he end up crocking in that cave. lol [emoji23][emoji23][emoji2]

 

[davef]

My favorite bs story is the Cheddar Man was just visiting.
Obviously he was a Lost Tourist and somehow he end up crocking in that cave. lol [emoji23][emoji23][emoji2]

A LOST TOURIST?? A TOURIST during the STONE AGE?? When people moved around and there was no concept of country, nation etc and had no idea where they were going or where they were geographically and maps weren't invented until thousands of years later?? Lol

Cheddar man gets a brochure rock saying "Visit the Mavelous British Isles" translated from animal shape carvings lol

 

[Angela]

I honest to God don't get this. Didn't they hear about Loschbour and all the other WHG probably being darker than the incoming Anatolian farmers?

Anyone following population genetics even in a cursory fashion would have heard about it.

Is it because he wasn't portrayed as being quite as dark? Do a few shades make so much difference as to get hysterical about it?

This has turned out to be such a depressing thread, depressing and sad. I'll never understand people like this if I live to be a hundred. I remember people on all the sites, this one, dna-forums, then anthrogenica, even the ones populated by out and out racists all fighting over how much WHG they had, and that WHG ancestry made you indigenous, and "actually", "really", European.

The Spanish Stormfront members who used to post here were celebrating that they had more WHG than other Southern Europeans, and that's why they plotted so far "north" in Europe.

Now, all of a sudden, he's toast. They only want to be descended from the SHG or the EHG. Well, I have news for them, those hunter-gatherers were part WHG, so there's no getting away from that ancestry, and the other part, well, calling it "European" is a bit of a stretch even geographically. It was also in the MN farmer populations. People, you're stuck with him and his genes, even if he turns out to have been quite dark.

 

[berun]

Till not so many years I heard that white skin was developed by Euro HG to allow Sun transform certain molecules into vitamins, I'm just amazed by the failure of such logics, but not so much amazed as white supremacists seeing that their blue eyes are from dark HG, their white skin from Anatolians, and their weaving blondish hair from Siberian HG... lol

 

[davef]

Sorry Angela, but as far as this thread is concerned...I ENJOY EVERY MINUTE!!! After all the horrendous posts from these nordicist scumbags attacking my ancestry it's karma time for these pigs!! I would readily pay to watch a clip of these low lifes turning pale in response to this as if they're children looking down in horror at an F grade marked on their report cards! I swear I would almost die laughing! Revenge is fun!

Yes it is depressing in some ways, but the cackling hyena that I am, there's so much I can mock and poke fun at in this world and seeing the mindless reactions of these idiots in a panicked frenzy is a great example!

 

[Jovialis]

Sorry Angela, but as far as this thread is concerned...I ENJOY EVERY MINUTE!!! After all the horrendous posts from these nordicist scumbags attacking my ancestry it's karma time for these pigs!! I would readily pay to watch a clip of these low lifes turning pale in response to this as if they're children looking down in horror at an F grade marked on their report cards! I swear I would almost die laughing! Revenge is fun!

Yes it is depressing in some ways, but the cackling hyena that I am, there's so much I can mock and poke fun at in this world and seeing the mindless reactions of these idiots in a panicked frenzy is a great example!

You've received an infraction, don't use inappropriate language! Also, I already warned you about galvanizing conflict. Cheddar man had dark skin, WHO CARES?! Do you consider dark-skin to be something people should be ashamed of? WHG ancestry is not something to use against people. Provocations like that only serve to thrust people into hateful resentment. You're acting no better than those nordicists you dislike; shaming others for their ancestry.

EDIT:

I am also opposed to noridicism, and racial supremacy of any kind, from any group. But vulgarity will not be used in this forum. This is an academic setting, it isn't the street or a flop-house.

 

[Alcuin]

I can't imagine Chris Stringer doing anything at all underhanded. Let's wait and see the paper. Maybe this sample lacks even some of the derived snps that other WHG possessed. Or maybe their calls were faulty somehow. We just don't know yet.

Don't go believing everything you see on internet sites. A lot of it is authored by paranoid, delusional, agenda driven idiots on the internet who often are also just liars trying to cover up their own less than estimable behavior. I saw some things posted about me today that were just ludicrous. Of course, the posters didn't have the guts to come on here and say it to my "virtual" face. They're better at sending scurrilous, sexist, foul, disgusting pms full of gross anatomical terms. That way no one knows what they're really like.

Chris Stringer is the man who first piqued my interest in prehistoric Britain and its ancient inhabitants, so I have nothing but respect for him

I don't want to accuse anyone involved in the reconstruction of being deliberately deceitful, nor political. The media who have the responsibility of conveying this story to the public are a different story, and it wouldn't be unfair to say that here in Britain they've spun this story into something it isn't. I'm thinking mainly of their interviews on the streets with people of recent African and Asian origin, asking how it affects their notions of their own Britishness, rather than simply explaining how people like Cheddar Man melded with later arrivals in the Neolithic and Metal Ages and how those groups become the 'White British'

It's sad that people are shunning WHG because of this one reconstruction, making statements such as "well, we only draw 10% of our genetic make-up from people like Cheddar Man", as if to say they're glad they're only 1/10th WHG now they're aware they weren't as fair as we are today in England.

I personally consider it a wonderful thing to know at least some of my ancestors have been here, continuously, for over 10,000 years.

 

[O Neill]

https://www.theguardian.com/science...balistic-rituals-by-early-humans-cheddar-cave

Reading through this i find the science laughable. To me those cut marks look as though the bones were used as tools or maybe tied up and displayed, like the head on stake guys in sweden ?
The cut marks look nothing like bones that had been stripped for consumption and these guys would have been highly skilled at butchery and would have left no trace what so ever.
To read that they killed and ate him for an offer to a god and they must have boiled him because theres no evidence of fire. I mean come on lol.
Do they have Enid blyton on there payroll.

 

[bicicleur 2]

There's some internet chat that he is yDna "C" of some sort, which wouldn't be at all surprising.

Again, I can't confirm that.

@Alcuin,
I can't imagine Chris Stringer doing anything at all underhanded. Let's wait and see the paper. Maybe this sample lacks even some of the derived snps that other WHG possessed. Or maybe their calls were faulty somehow. We just don't know yet.

Don't go believing everything you see on internet sites. A lot of it is authored by paranoid, delusional, agenda driven idiots on the internet who often are also just liars trying to cover up their own less than estimable behavior. I saw some things posted about me today that were just ludicrous. Of course, the posters didn't have the guts to come on here and say it to my "virtual" face. They're better at sending scurrilous, sexist, foul, disgusting pms full of gross anatomical terms. That way no one knows what they're really like.

if it were not for Chris Stringer, I'd say this whole presentation is made by a bunch of sensationalist TV makers
it is certainly made in such style, and it worked, they get a lot of attention
let's await the scientific paper to see if this very dark, almost black skin is realistic and how they come to their claim that these people came from Africa via the Middle East
any idea when this paper will be published?

 

[davef]

Not arguing against the infraction (yes i understand I was acting out and I deserve it) but no, I don't see dark skin as something to be ashamed of (I found it cool he had dark skin in an earlier post in this thread). I was laughing at their reactions after realizing that their ancestors were darker than they wanted them to be and felt that their sense of shame was justified punishment.

And I have WHG ancestry myself which I'm totally cool with, whether they resembled Nigerians or pale as ghosts.

I do apologize for galvanizing conflict, I'll be more careful next time.

Yes I did stir up conflict regardless of where I was going with that last post and I'll accept punishment, but I'll be happy if everyone is now convinced that I wasn't shaming anyone of having ancestry I have myself in that post, though I can see how it can be interpreted that way.