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Thread: Thraco-Cimmerians

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    Thraco-Cimmerians

    Thraco-Cimmerian is a historiographical and archaeological term, composed of the names of the Thracians and the Cimmerians. It refers to 8th to 7th century BC cultures that are linked in Eastern Central Europe and in the area west of the Black Sea.
    ...
    Archaeologically, Thraco-Cimmerian artifacts consist of grave goods and hoards. The artifacts labelled Thraco-Cimmerian all belong to a category of upper class, luxury objects, like weapons, horse tacks and jewelry, and they are recovered only from a small percentage of graves of the period. They are metal (usually bronze) items, particularly parts of horse tacks, found in a late Urnfield context, but without local Urnfield predecessors for their type. They appear rather to spread from the Koban culture of the Caucasus and northern Georgia, which together with the Srubna culture, blends into the 9th to 7th centuries pre-Scythian Chernogorovka and Novocherkassk cultures. By the 7th century, Thraco-Cimmerian objects are spread further west over most of Eastern and Central Europe, locations of finds reaching to Denmark and eastern Prussia in the north and to Lake Zürich in the west. Together with these bronze artifacts, earliest Iron items appear, ushering in the European Iron Age, corresponding to the Proto-Celtic expansion from the Hallstatt culture.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian



    The origin of the Cimmerians is unclear. They are mostly supposed to have been related to either Iranian or Thracian speaking groups which migrated under pressure of the Scythian expansion of the 9th to 8th century BC.[4][5]

    According to Herodotus, the Cimmerians inhabited the region north of the Caucasus and the Black Sea during the 8th and 7th centuries BC (i.e. what is now Ukraine and Southern Russia), although they have not been identified with any specific archaeological culture in the region
    ...
    The supposed origin of the Cimmerians north of the Caucasus at the end of the Bronze Age loosely corresponds with the early Koban culture (Northern Caucasus, 12th to 4th centuries BC), but there is no compelling reason to associate this culture with the Cimmerians specifically
    ...
    The Biblical name "Gomer" has been linked by some to the Cimmerians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

    from area of Koban culture north of Caucasus and Black sea Cimmerians have spread to areas of central and east Europe.. this settlement is known as Thraco-Cimmerian and lasted from 9th century till 7th century BC. In my opinion 9th to 7th century BC admixture to east Europe is good timeline for I2a din spread. It spread in R1a areas giving present mix of R1a and I2a in Slavic countries
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    This culture spread Iron age into Europe,which also gave rise to Hallstatt Celts.

    I am however on the same opinion for I2a din,this lineages most probably spread only in the Iron age,and most of it is associated indeed with Slavic speaking groups,not even the Baltic,which form Balto-Slavic,so I2a din most probably spread after separation of Baltic and Slavic,so from Iron age to Migration period is good timing.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Basically a Scythian migration westward. Their animal style art influenced the early Celts

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    TRERES (Τρῆρες), a people repeatedly mentioned by Strabo, generally as a tribe of, or at least. as closely connected with, the Cimmerii, but in a few passages as Thracians.
    The general opinion, which is presupposed in Herodotus also, is that the Cimmerians invaded Asia Minor from the E., along the coasts of the Euxine. But it would seem that, on the contrary, they came through Thrace, for they make their first appearance in lonia and Lydia.
    Strabo was evidently undecided whether to regard them as a distinct race, or as identical with the Cimmerii, in whose company they several times made destructive inroads into Asia Minor. “The Cimmerii, whom they name Treres also, or some tribe of them, often overran the southern shores of the Euxine and the adjoining countries, sometimes throwing themselves upon the Paphlagonians, at other times upon the Phrygians, at the time when they say Midas died from drinking bull's blood. And Lygdamis led his army as far as Lydia and Ionia, and took Sardes, but perished in Cilicia. And the Cimmerii and Treres often made such expeditions.
    Callisthenes states [p. 2.1226]that Sardes was taken several times; first by the Cimmerians; then by the Treres and Lycians, as Callinus also shows; lastly in the time of Cyrus and Croesus.” (Id. xiii. p. 627). “In olden times, it befel the Magnetes [the people of Magnesia on the Maeander] to be utterly destroyed by the Treres, a Cimmerian tribe.”


    The names of the kings of the Bosporan kingdom correspond with Thracian names; and this fact, in connection with the circumstance that there was a Thracian tribe termed Treres, connected with the Cimmerians, has been adduced to prove that the Cimmerians were Thracians.
    As vestiges of the Cimmerians still remaining in his time, Herodotus (4.12) mentions the tombs of the Cimmerian kings near the Tyras (Dniester) and several places in the Scythian country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    This culture spread Iron age into Europe,which also gave rise to Hallstatt Celts.

    I am however on the same opinion for I2a din,this lineages most probably spread only in the Iron age,and most of it is associated indeed with Slavic speaking groups,not even the Baltic,which form Balto-Slavic,so I2a din most probably spread after separation of Baltic and Slavic,so from Iron age to Migration period is good timing.
    really good observation

    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Basically a Scythian migration westward. Their animal style art influenced the early Celts
    Scythian migration would imply that Thraco-Cimmerian name is wrong which is possible. However Scythian culture is well known so it would have been recognized.

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    it's a old name (1930s), however Scythian and Cimmerian material culture was similar... more info here [edit]

    https://books.google.it/books?id=HTS...page&q&f=false

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    Cimmerians were firstly in Ukraine,and historians like Herodotus believed they were expelled by the Scythians that came from further east which triggered their migration from there.Cimmerian kings buried themselves on the Dniester,western Ukraine and Moldova.
    But probably not all emigrated they influenced one another and Scythian name will replace the Cimmerian in Ukraine,which will remain only in Bosporan kingdom known as Cimmerian Bosporus near Tanais,with king names resemble those of the Thracians.

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    From the Baltic to Slavic countries,Romania etc the name of the Cimmerians survived and in the Centum as Cimbri.

    In Satem languages

    Slavic -"Sebrъ"(farmer,companion,friend) reconstructed as Sembrъ,Simber with lost "m" due nazalization.Like in "zub" (tooth) from earlier "zumb" etc

    Lithunian-Siabry
    Hungarian- Cimbora( companion,pal)
    Romanian - Simbra (friend)
    Belorusian- Siabar (friend)


    "Sebri" in medieval Serbia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebri

    In Lithuania Siabry - a category of people, jointly owned and used the arable land, fishing grounds, the means of production.

    Toponyms like Semberia in Bosnia

    Kimberoi, Kimmerioi in Aristophanes as Kimberios.See linguist Milan Budimir for more.
    Last edited by Milan.M; 09-02-18 at 02:26.

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    However later on the Dniester (Tyras) where Cimmerians prior used to live, lived the Tyragetae Thracian tribe of the Getae.
    Changes seem to happened couple of times in Scythia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    From the Baltic to Slavic countries,Romania etc the name of the Cimmerians survived and in the Centum as Cimbri.

    In Satem languages

    Slavic -"Sebrъ"(farmer,companion,friend) reconstructed as Sembrъ,Simber with lost "m" due nazalization.Like in "zub" (tooth) from earlier "zumb" etc

    Lithunian-Siabry
    Hungarian- Cimbora( companion,pal)
    Romanian - Simbra (friend)
    Belorusian- Siabar (friend)


    "Sebri" in medieval Serbia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebri

    In Lithuania Siabry - a category of people, jointly owned and used the arable land, fishing grounds, the means of production.

    Toponyms like Semberia in Bosnia

    Kimberoi, Kimmerioi in Aristophanes as Kimberios.See linguist Milan Budimir for more.
    Instead of an Iron Age ethnonym becoming a Slavic and Baltic word meaning "friend, companion, pal", isn't it perhaps more plausible that the Cimmerians themselves had a cognate and similar term roughly resembling *kimer-, *kimber- and, as many other peoples elsewhere, simply called their own people with a general reference to "our friends, our companions, our allies" in opposition to "the others, the enemies, the strange ones"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Instead of an Iron Age ethnonym becoming a Slavic and Baltic word meaning "friend, companion, pal", isn't it perhaps more plausible that the Cimmerians themselves had a cognate and similar term roughly resembling *kimer-, *kimber- and, as many other peoples elsewhere, simply called their own people with a general reference to "our friends, our companions, our allies" in opposition to "the others, the enemies, the strange ones"?
    Well i just gave example how the word survived,but originally in medieval language at least in South-Slavic meant like "farmer".According to Constantine Jirechek original meaning of the word is a cooperative, a shareholder, a tenant.Later, the concept of "Sebar" plural Sebri earlier Sembri became synonymous with peasant or rustic and was replaced by other terms.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebri

    In medieval Lithuania Siabry - a category of people, jointly owned and used the arable land, fishing grounds, the means of production.If in South Slavic shifted to mean a peasant perhaps a shift from earlier "farmer or worker" and today doesn't mean anything is replaced,you can see the shift for "friend" in Belorussian,Hungarian or Romanian,in the later is associated again with farming,denoting peasants using common cattle.
    In Albanian Sembër meant farmers who worked their fields or sharecropper ( if google translate well)
    In Greek dialects survived something like "sympros" but they are count as later borrowings.

    "sympros ho georgos ho ekhon hena monon boun synetairizetai met'allou, hin' apotelese zeugari, zetei sympron"

    Maybe Greeks can translate this sentence i found it in Milan Budimir examples.

    However it reflects a primary meaning of "bond",whether in farming or anything else.

    And we have

    Hungarian- Cimbora( companion,pal)
    Romanian - Simbra (friend,farmer)
    Belorusian- Siabar (friend)



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    To take all words in account we have Slavic-Sebri,Siabry earlier *Sembri,Simbri,Hungarian-Cimbora,Romanian-Simbra,Albanian-Sembër,Greek-Sympros.

    Some here are borrowings

    Germanic Himbra?

    And i myself think the Welsh name for themselves Cymru is likewise connected to the same "ethnonym",see Latin name for Wales Cambria.

    And they by others are called Welsh,word connected with the Vlachs in Balkans.
    We can see that most of Europe had similar social structure,organization or "ethnonyms" this reflects cultural interaction and could be probably the Iron age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howyesno View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

    from area of Koban culture north of Caucasus and Black sea Cimmerians have spread to areas of central and east Europe.. this settlement is known as Thraco-Cimmerian and lasted from 9th century till 7th century BC. In my opinion 9th to 7th century BC admixture to east Europe is good timeline for I2a din spread. It spread in R1a areas giving present mix of R1a and I2a in Slavic countries
    So I2-Din can be considered as Thraco-Cimmerian...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Szigmund View Post
    So I2-Din can be considered as Thraco-Cimmerian...?
    No. Its Proto-Slavic. You know that already. All I2a1b-Din go back to one person in 100BC. Maybe the ancestor of I2a1b is. However, that is unlikely, as the oldest sample was a basal CTS10228 in France. The rest of I2a1b CTS10228 in modern folk is not old and its recent ancestor does not go back further than 200 BC. All surviving descendants of which mostly survive in Slavs and spread with their migration.

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    Cimmerians seems to have been the ancestors of Welsh people from Britain.
    Later, they mass-migrated to Britain.
    Welsh people are calling their country "Cymru" and themselves "Cymri" :) .
    Just a wild supposition.
    :)
    Some or more Romanians are scoring similarity on autosomal DNA with South Brits/Welsh.
    Even 20%.

    As for their HG, I think they were mainly R1B, could not tell if R1B-L21 or R1B-L23, or who knows.
    As a thing to notice, in SE Romania, there is a peak in R1B-L23 and that part of Romania was once called "Scythia minor" - guess why :) .
    Because of the Scythians.
    Scythians are well known to have been mostly R1B-L23.

    Another thing, there is I2 - disles in British Isles and Ireland, which is very close to I2-din, but not in South Britain (Wales included), is peaking somewhere in Ireland.
    How that I2 - disles got in Ireland and how I2-din got in East Europe, do not ask me.

    Another thing related to this thread, the Irish are having a folk legend that their ancestors came from Scythia, by boat, over Black Sea, Mediteranean Sea and later, Atlantic Ocean, in Ireland.
    This folk tale of the Irish is not claiming that the Irish are Scythians, anyway.

    There are some folk tales in Scotland that some Scotts descend from some Scythians.

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