How to divide Slavs from Balts, and vice-versa before 6th century?

Something made them clearly different from the Balts. The question is what? "Veneti" people?

I'd bet more on much more "international" cultural influences from being a "border" culture (that's what the region stretching Ukraine/Russia/Belarus always was) than on any heavy intermixing with other peoples. Proto-Slavs were probably for centuries bordering on Scytho-Samartian, Germanic and Daco-Thracian regions and much more subject to their influences, being more southerly nations full of "innovations" and prestige goods from the Mediterranean world and Central Asia. Being a border region, they must've had more intermixing with other non-Balto-Slavic peoples, but I doubt they were really very influenced (genetically) by Iranic peoples of the steppe. The few ancient DNA of Iron Age Scythians that have been analyzed, if I'm not mistakn, didn't look very "Slavic", at least if you consider just the haplogroups that are clearly associated with all the lands where Slavic migration really made a big impact.
 
With what R1a, Z280 or M458? Almost all Eastern Slavs are R1a? Even almost all Slavic population is R1a, West Slavs R1a-M458, and eastern ones Z280. There are only exception about South Slavs who are mainly I2a-Din. Actually Slavs does't have other haplogroup than R1a. That formed Slavs, i didn't get your point indeed.

That's not true. R1a and its several clades are indeed dominant among Slavs, but it's impossible that Slavs didn't have any other haplogroup besides R1a. Not even the IEs who gave them their language had only one haplogroup, and the Slavs were placed exactly on a region subject to many successive migrations back and forth. In no Slavic nation, even those probably more related to the "original" Slavs like those in northern Ukraine or southern Belarus, "almost all population" is R1a. At most 2/3 of the male population belongs to R1a, but in general it's more like 50%.
 
These Venedi/Veneti on the baltic sea belong to west-baltic cairns culture and also through recent russian papers as part of flat-bed culture.
they where absorbed into gothic society by 200AD and the remainder eventually became known as the warmians ( old prussians - baltic people , not german and not slav). Warmians and venedi have been in the same spot since 350BC

then "Veleti".
 
1. I am aware of history about term balts. If we don't name balts as balts and slavs as slavs, there might be completelly different picture - not this chauvinistical idea, that slavic evolved in empty place out of nowhere. People and history are connected and so are slavs. I feel we are having off-topic, because you wanted to distinguish baltic R1a from slavic, right? And let's leave out other haplogroups out of this. No Ia2 or other halpogroups, as R1a is already enough.

2. Morphology means little when different cultures collide. French morphology has nothing to do with german, even if french people were franks, who were germanic. What is the point of comparing morphology, if morphology is one of the weakest structural points of language - it is vocabulary that persist, even when the structure of original language dies out. Are you claiming that all slavic languages have the same morphological structure of language? Are you claiming that swedes uses articles for words, just like germans do? I have studied german, but hell no - no way german has the same morphology as english!!! Not to mention, that there are some distinct ways of pronounciation of sounds.
It is not like there are no excellent examples of how things happened to other people, like Twa pygmies in Kongo basin who uses bantu morphology, but they have distinct vocabulary for all things hunting and gathering related. That and bigger presence of B y-dna distinguishes them from bantu, even if they look alike now. Can we agree on this logic, that morphology of language matter less than vocabulary?

3. " In reallity, most linguists are agree..."
Science is not democracy that solves everything by voting - either someone is right and rest - are not. This is how science works.
What I have read is that there is actually wide variety of ideas and one of them is that prussian was dialectual continuity between slavic and eastern baltic. I do not want to touch this topic, as that requires further discussion what prussians had common with slavic from their early beginnings and what was later additions, but yes - prussians looks like documented link, that is most closest to slavic lingustics.
To be fair - there is no prussian language, but prussian languages. Only few of them had vocabulary written down. Actually, prussians were also very distinct culturally with distinct religious beliefs - they even practised urnfield culture, so it might be possible, that some groups assimilated into prussian. Assimilation works both ways.
I can only comment about living baltic languages and it is complicated already, as they became east baltic around 15th century, when so called non east baltic languages died out. Besides - naming someone east baltic, does not mean that there were no other dialects of baltic people to the east of them - we just do not know about them, as we have no language examples from pomeranian balts or other balts who are lost without name or mentions in history. The whole magic about baltic, is that it is not that much researched and I had a lot of reads from russian scientists in 90ties, that makes obsolete almost everything what is still published as norm and honestly - I am waiting when Putin will die(all for the love of read!) and russians will become normal people who will not be afraid to look at their history as it is. So should you. ;)

4. Ok. Let's not touch languages, ethincities, if that is so confusing. To say what is accurate, we have to establish if so called baltic-slavic community(or whatever is meant by that) existed as long as baltic. I don't see YES to that question as answer. Because different cultures that are identifiable as baltic already existed and one of them later became proto slavic.

Let me also reply to Milan.M map Nr.2. His map at 300BC pictured proto-slavs around where was Milograd culture long after proto-balts went out and settled as different tribes. Actually it was not only dating that was wrong.
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_cultures_600-200_BC_SVG.svg
YES - they all are baltic.

5. Look, I see the confusion there already. We are actually talking about DIFFERENT THINGS. Can we for the sake of argument STAY AWAY from southern slavs? I do understand, that you are insterested in this topic, but 6th century AD was just start of slavic appearance in balkans and slavs had not yet assimilated Balkan people into their own, so they had no Ia2 or other haplogroups, that were strictly Balkan.

6. There are more influences of iranian languages(and by iranians I do mean - steppe nomads of iranian descent, not the ones, that dwelve in Persia) - don't let wiki page fool you, as it has mash of statements from various times. Iranian inluences on slavic has virtually not researched and you should look into future, that there will be new findings, because osetians(as last remnants of scythians) still exist and despite living among so many differently speaking people they still have many exciting similarities with slavic.

7. Zarubnitsy culture is waaaaay before linguistical proto-slavic - it would take them some centuries to even become proto-slavic.
If you are mentioning Veleti invasion - that's fine by me(although that might be a very large time offset, but whatever), that you agree that someone invaded baltic people who lived in proto-slavic area, as that solves question why you can't distinguish R1a of baltic and slavic.

I never said that Balts are not formed before the Slavs. But point is that the statement in serious science can't be: "proto-Slavs were Balts". No they weren't, since the Slavs are not only Z280 but also R1a-M458 which is also here charaterized as proto-Slavic!

You said in previous post that every East Slav with R1a is assimilated Balt, literally, that's why i, by the way, mentioned I2a Southern Slavs.

About your photo, yes, they're all Baltic. But how do you know that Slavs are from some of these cultures? Proto-Slavic homland is not still identified.

About langauge, Baltic and Slavic are clearly 2 different branches today.

If you took example: Lithuanian word for "blood" is "krajaus", while the all Slavs in world have the unique word for this "krv", as there are many other words. Slavic morphological difference is not result of innovations, but of some other influence.

In my opinion, R1a-M458 people (NON-GERMANIC) invaded southern peripheral Baltic speakers and mix of these 2 people, as well of their influence rised up proto-Slavs. R1a-M458 was surely one independent individue.

So in short: R1a-M458 (Veleti??) + R1a-Z280 (peripheral Baltic speakers) = proto-Slavs. That's my opinion which have logic according to historical context.
 
Hypothesis is interesting thing, but let's agree that if hypothesis is hypothesis for last 45 years it is still not proof.

I don't know if that is something that has to do with your native language, but in English your statement that Baltic and Slavic were always separated logically makes no sense, because neither Slavic nor Baltic *always* existed ;)

Everything is still hypothesis about Balto-Slavic langauges, even today. there are no final solution about this :)

Linguists are still arguing about that.

about second thing, yes, i made bad sentence, but you got my point.
 
qtr said:
Hypothesis is interesting thing, but let's agree that if hypothesis is hypothesis for last 45 years it is still not proof.

I don't know if that is something that has to do with your native language, but in English your statement that Baltic and Slavic were always separated logically makes no sense, because neither Slavic nor Baltic *always* existed ;)

See it in this way:

X+Y=Z
x=a+b+c

a) Lithuanian
b) Latvian
c) Prussian
Y) Proto-Slavic

You are calling "Z" as Baltic, but more accurate is Balto-Slavic. Add the term whatever you want, the fact will stay the same.

a,b,c are called together "Baltic" . So if you write X+Y=Z or a+b+c+ Y = Z, the thing stay the same. "Y" is the special branch in comparison to a,b,c (Lithuanian, Latvian Prussian).

Baltic languages form a distinct branch of language, to which the Praslovenian is related but does not belong to it. In fact, there are many more languages: Lithuanian, Latish, Žudski, Latgal, Prussian, Jatvežski, Goledski, Scalvin and they are "brothers" form the Baltic linguistic brotherhood. Slavic language is not their brothers, but "nephew". So.. it is reason why is extremly incorrect to say that Baltic = Slavic. :)
 
I never said that Balts are not formed before the Slavs. But point is that the statement in serious science can't be: "proto-Slavs were Balts". No they weren't, since the Slavs are not only Z280 but also R1a-M458 which is also here charaterized as proto-Slavic!

You said in previous post that every East Slav with R1a is assimilated Balt, literally, that's why i, by the way, mentioned I2a Southern Slavs.

About your photo, yes, they're all Baltic. But how do you know that Slavs are from some of these cultures? Proto-Slavic homland is not still identified.

About langauge, Baltic and Slavic are clearly 2 different branches today.

If you took example: Lithuanian word for "blood" is "krajaus", while the all Slavs in world have the unique word for this "krv", as there are many other words. Slavic morphological difference is not result of innovations, but of some other influence.

In my opinion, R1a-M458 people (NON-GERMANIC) invaded southern peripheral Baltic speakers and mix of these 2 people, as well of their influence rised up proto-Slavs. R1a-M458 was surely one independent individue.

So in short: R1a-M458 (Veleti??) + R1a-Z280 (peripheral Baltic speakers) = proto-Slavs. That's my opinion which have logic according to historical context.

M458 is completely different thing. You should have started with that. I must ask some questions first, though:
1) why would anyone assume, that M458 evolved or occupied for a very long period very confined space in the backyard of balts, when there were vast steppes out there?
2) why would anyone assume, that M458 were linguistically proto-slavic all their existence(in that confined space), which is much younger development, than when they split off from northern(originally) brethrens? Linguistically, slavic language is very young(with some exceptions, one of the youngest in Europe), younger than germanic - not to mention baltic. Is there some reason why slavic should be older than germanic?
3) are there any studies that were focused of nongermanic, nonceltic(both of them are mainly R1b, especially after germans had to make their 1000+ year long "drag nach osten" from celtic area) genetical substratum which was prevalent in *so called* iranian tribes - scythians? I would think that scythians used as much proto-IE language, as balts or other unknown IE speakers of that time.
4) M458 is also significantly presented in Caucasus populations.


Blood is actually example what I would use why slavic and baltic are close and why this word is not unique to slavic, because this word has the same base as lithuanian. You just confused yourself, that vowels are sounding different, but I am speaking native language where different vowels can be used for the same word and it will still be same word. Or even worse - some words that are reversed means same - like new and young, which seems recognisable, but are more changed than version of lithuanian jaun - nauj(both are roots, as endings are not essential for comparision, when they are not present in one language).

So far you can use it as a rule, that if two completelly different people groups meet, their language mix is simplified version of both. Language only over time becomes complex. Slavic shows same hybrid signs as german(and by german I mean - germanic languages) - total collapse of morphology and structure of original IE language to simpler forms of both - and not because they contacted balts, as they either spoke same language continium or had similar dialect. Germans after collapse of their original IE language over time developed something that enriched their language structure, but slavic languages just did not had that much time to do so and to me they look like simplified baltic languages. Not that many differences and I speak fluently one baltic and one slavic language.

If you are making claims, that difference in resulting baltic hybrid of slavic languages are not result of innovations(but were brought unchanged from some other language), that means, that you are claiming that slavic languages were like that from protoIE and I would like to hear explanation for that claim. Also, no linguists support that as of now, as proto-slavic-baltic language models(there are more than one and I am only supporting one) were built to explain why linguistical similarities between baltic and slavic are so close. And baltic languages have all the vocabulary base, morphology and syntax, that are lost in slavic.
 
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See it in this way:

X+Y=Z
x=a+b+c

a) Lithuanian
b) Latvian
c) Prussian
Y) Proto-Slavic

You are calling "Z" as Baltic, but more accurate is Balto-Slavic. Add the term whatever you want, the fact will stay the same.

a,b,c are called together "Baltic" . So if you write X+Y=Z or a+b+c+ Y = Z, the thing stay the same. "Y" is the special branch in comparison to a,b,c (Lithuanian, Latvian Prussian).

Baltic languages form a distinct branch of language, to which the Praslovenian is related but does not belong to it. In fact, there are many more languages: Lithuanian, Latish, Žudski, Latgal, Prussian, Jatvežski, Goledski, Scalvin and they are "brothers" form the Baltic linguistic brotherhood. Slavic language is not their brothers, but "nephew". So.. it is reason why is extremly incorrect to say that Baltic = Slavic. :)

If we are talking germanic language group with english, german, danish then slavic languages are not as far from baltic as germanic languages differ among themselves.
If we are talking about different groups of R1a in historical populations - same thing.


Let me picture something more accurate:
a) medieval danish-saxon germanic
b) medieval english used in medieval England
c) medieval english used in medieval Scotland
Y) jamaican english
 
I'd bet more on much more "international" cultural influences from being a "border" culture (that's what the region stretching Ukraine/Russia/Belarus always was) than on any heavy intermixing with other peoples. Proto-Slavs were probably for centuries bordering on Scytho-Samartian, Germanic and Daco-Thracian regions and much more subject to their influences, being more southerly nations full of "innovations" and prestige goods from the Mediterranean world and Central Asia. Being a border region, they must've had more intermixing with other non-Balto-Slavic peoples, but I doubt they were really very influenced (genetically) by Iranic peoples of the steppe. The few ancient DNA of Iron Age Scythians that have been analyzed, if I'm not mistakn, didn't look very "Slavic", at least if you consider just the haplogroups that are clearly associated with all the lands where Slavic migration really made a big impact.

Proto-slavic language is considered to be started in 8-9th century and that is WAY AFTER the date, that proposed this author to discuss the topic: 6th century. We just can't speak about slavs, proto-slavs and proto-slavic language from that period. Only because of that - IMO OP is just tr00lling, that he is mentioning slavs or proto-slavs. At best we can discuss about groups that were participating in future slav creation.

I am not pushing agenda, that Golden Horde replaced russians with tatars and mongols, why would you insist, that assimilation of local populations by so called slavic did not exist? There are theories, that propose, that goths took with them local population(which is logical, because your relatives are also relatives from mother side - not only y-dna father side), when they moved to Crimea. Russian historians have published papers, that vikings with prussians colonized and created Novgorod among finnish people. Why would you think, that different groups of people did not mix up in ancient times, if they do now? What has changed so much? Even if we are beating bush about proto-slavs, we still use common internet for that.

And only because we call scythians iranians, doesn't mean, that they came all the way from Iran, but had similar nomad culture, what we think invaded India and Iran and also moved back and forth. Quite possibly they were as much Iranians, just like Magyars are related genetically to Finnish.
 
Proto-slavic language is considered to be started in 8-9th century and that is WAY AFTER the date, that proposed this author to discuss the topic: 6th century. We just can't speak about slavs, proto-slavs and proto-slavic language from that period. Only because of that - IMO OP is just tr00lling, that he is mentioning slavs or proto-slavs. At best we can discuss about groups that were participating in future slav creation.

I am not pushing agenda, that Golden Horde replaced russians with tatars and mongols, why would you insist, that assimilation of local populations by so called slavic did not exist? There are theories, that propose, that goths took with them local population(which is logical, because your relatives are also relatives from mother side - not only y-dna father side), when they moved to Crimea. Russian historians have published papers, that vikings with prussians colonized and created Novgorod among finnish people. Why would you think, that different groups of people did not mix up in ancient times, if they do now? What has changed so much? Even if we are beating bush about proto-slavs, we still use common internet for that.

And only because we call scythians iranians, doesn't mean, that they came all the way from Iran, but had similar nomad culture, what we think invaded India and Iran and also moved back and forth. Quite possibly they were as much Iranians, just like Magyars are related genetically to Finnish.

Your date estimates are off. By the 9th century there were already different Slavic dialects verging on different sister languages, as can be attested from the first texts in Cyrillic, which already have typical sound rules that only pertain to South Slavic, not to other branches, thus indicating that the dialects had already been diverging for some time. By the 10-11th century the first documents in Slavic languages already show clearly distinct, though still very close, languages, so Proto-Slavic was certainly much older. Most linguists do consider that Proto-Slavic was probably spoken between the early centuries AD and 600 AD. Clearly distinct dialects do not evolve in just a few decades.

As for the rest of your comment, honestly I didn't understand what you mean, because your comments have little to do with what I said in my previous message.

I never told, for example, that different groups of people do not mix. I just said that Slavs came mainly from the "Balto-Slavic" that you for some reason prefer to call "Balts" even if they also included the language and much of the culture of future Slavs. Also, I never said that Scythians came from Iran and don't know where you took that information to feel the need to oppose to it.

I said that the REAL ANCIENT DNA of Scythians has already been analyzed and they definitely look like many modern people of Southern Russia or Ukraine, but they were clearly distinct from other Slavic natiions, so if they did mix heavily with Proto-Slavs then "strangely" those early Slavs didn't carry much Scythian genetic influence to other places they migrated to. Unlikely. People mix, but you can't simply assume that such a mixing occurred to explain why Slavs were so different from other Balts, and anyway cultural mixing is even more probable and numerous than genetic mixing especially in the last milennia with populations already relatively numerous and, thus, less easy to absorb entirely.

Actually, the example of the Golden Horde that you mentioned is very useful for me, because if you look at Tatar, Chuvash or Bashkir autosomal DNA and Y-DNA haplogroups nowadays you'll soon find out that they look nothing "much" Northeastern Asian and definitely very unlike Eastern Turks, what clearly indicates that they mixed a lot - and that can clearly seen in how their DNA looks nothing like that of those who remained closer to the Turkic homeland. Now, Slavs, instead, absorbed all the local peoples where they migrated to, much like those of the Golden Horde, but there is still nothing particularly "Scythian Iron Age Steppe" in the admixtures that seem to have come from the Slavic expansion. Instead, what they really look like is very close to that of people that were Baltic-speaking in the past or now.

Finally, I also didn't understand why you're talking about Vikings in Rus' and their foundation of Novgorod. That happened centuries AFTER the Slavic migrations started and when the Vikings came Proto-Slavic had already been expanding and even diverging into many different dialects for a long time, so it has nothing to do with their ethnogenesis.

Anyhow, if you have evidences of the occurrence of actual and very intense intermixing (I don't deny that some interbreeding and assimilation must've happened, of course), not just cultural influence, I'll be glad to receive them because Slavic ethnogenesis would be even more interesting if that had indeed occurred. That would also make some sense since Proto-Slavic probably appeared right to the north of where Sarmatians, Alans and Goths lived in the Late Antiquity.
 
If we are talking germanic language group with english, german, danish then slavic languages are not as far from baltic as germanic languages differ among themselves.
If we are talking about different groups of R1a in historical populations - same thing.


Let me picture something more accurate:
a) medieval danish-saxon germanic
b) medieval english used in medieval England
c) medieval english used in medieval Scotland
Y) jamaican english

As I understood, you want to equalize Slavic branch with Baltic, and begin to call it Baltic, but you don't have proofs for such hypothesis. It's clear like a day that Slavic lang. family is totally different language family to begin with it, and never was alike Lithuanian or Latvian, even the greatest Baltic nationalist never claimed just things. Since those Baltic cultures established, in that time, those 2 dialects (But also west Baltic - Prussian) were separated, and if you don't admit that Slavic language was never alike Lithuanian and Latvian, there is no any purpose to continue this discussion, otherwise linguists wouldn't call it Balto-Slavic but simply Baltic.

Let me picture something more accurate

Your comparison is not accurate at all. Firstly, you need to learn about Balto-Slavic differences to claim something that "proto-Slavic" was Baltic. No one serious linguist would conclude something like that and never was in history. 2 Russian linguists, Toporov and Ivanov claimed that proto-Slavic was peripheral Baltic dialect, but alsodifferent from the modern northern Baltic descedants (Lithuanian, Latvian) and this is not even questionable. Those are facts. So these 2 languages already have been separated under Baltic cultures, and if you want do deny these conclusions from the linguists, you need to post here a proofs.

I have proofs;

Some linguists claims that Baltic and Slavic were always separated, and their arguments are:

The arguments of the first type are:

Different fate of Indo-European / * a / , / * o / , / * a / and / * o / : / * a / , / * o / given / * o / in the Slavic, but / * a / in the Baltic, the difference / * a / and / * o / is preserved in the Baltic, but disappears in the Slavonic.
The Praindo-European / * sr / is preserved in the Baltic, but is transformed into / str / in Slavic, although several similar changes in the Baltic make it possible to assume that in the case of / * sr / we are dealing with archaism.
In the Baltic, the suffix -mo is used in ordinal numerals, whereas in the Slavic suffix -wo is used .
The suffix of the Baltic verbs is 1 liter. units hours nast. at. -mai , while in the Slavic it is not so (now this objection is under discussion).
In the Baltic often uses the infix -sto- , while in the Slavic it is absent.
In the pobaltic did not differ forms of units. h. and many others. h. in the verbs of 3 liters, while in the Proto-Slavic this difference persisted.
The Baltic suffix of adjectives -inga is not used in Slavic languages.
Baltic diminutive suffix -l- not used in Slavic languages (though, perhaps, it corresponds to the Russian suffix caressing -ul- : grandma , grandpa , etc...).
The Slavic suffix of the verbal nouns -tel- ( učitelj, graditelj ) is not used in the Baltic languages.
The pre- Indo-European suffix -es was in the Proto-Slavic ( teles, skies ), but is not used in the Baltic languages.
The Slavonic suffix of participles -lo is not used in the Baltic languages.
In the Proto-Slavic law operates an open syllable, which is absent in the Baltic (including the Prabalese) languages.
Slavic languages ​​retained the primordial European aorist by -s- (a sigmatic aorist), whereas in the Baltic languages ​​its traces were not found. (This claim is disputed.)
The pre-Slavic quantitative numerals of the large quantitativ ( five, six, ... , etc.) have the suffix -t , while in the Baltic languages ​​there are no traces of it.
The absence in the Baltic languages ​​of Meie's law, associated with satematic reflexes and the operation of the law "hands". The law of "hand" operated before the beginning of the satemization of languages, hence it is possible to see in this the division of languages ​​before the beginning of the processes of satemization.
 
Proto-slavic language is considered to be started in 8-9th century

Please, don't spread disinformations on such serious forum, picture down:

zy5wkm.png


This "pre-Slavic" or whatever you want to call him was already divided from Baltic-speakers!

I wouldn't speak about Germanic language if i am not well informed!
 
Your date estimates are off. By the 9th century there were already different Slavic dialects verging on different sister languages, as can be attested from the first texts in Cyrillic, which already have typical sound rules that only pertain to South Slavic, not to other branches, thus indicating that the dialects had already been diverging for some time. By the 10-11th century the first documents in Slavic languages already show clearly distinct, though still very close, languages, so Proto-Slavic was certainly much older. Most linguists do consider that Proto-Slavic was probably spoken between the early centuries AD and 600 AD. Clearly distinct dialects do not evolve in just a few decades.

As for the rest of your comment, honestly I didn't understand what you mean, because your comments have little to do with what I said in my previous message.

I never told, for example, that different groups of people do not mix. I just said that Slavs came mainly from the "Balto-Slavic" that you for some reason prefer to call "Balts" even if they also included the language and much of the culture of future Slavs. Also, I never said that Scythians came from Iran and don't know where you took that information to feel the need to oppose to it.

I said that the REAL ANCIENT DNA of Scythians has already been analyzed and they definitely look like many modern people of Southern Russia or Ukraine, but they were clearly distinct from other Slavic natiions, so if they did mix heavily with Proto-Slavs then "strangely" those early Slavs didn't carry much Scythian genetic influence to other places they migrated to. Unlikely. People mix, but you can't simply assume that such a mixing occurred to explain why Slavs were so different from other Balts, and anyway cultural mixing is even more probable and numerous than genetic mixing especially in the last milennia with populations already relatively numerous and, thus, less easy to absorb entirely.

Actually, the example of the Golden Horde that you mentioned is very useful for me, because if you look at Tatar, Chuvash or Bashkir autosomal DNA and Y-DNA haplogroups nowadays you'll soon find out that they look nothing "much" Northeastern Asian and definitely very unlike Eastern Turks, what clearly indicates that they mixed a lot - and that can clearly seen in how their DNA looks nothing like that of those who remained closer to the Turkic homeland. Now, Slavs, instead, absorbed all the local peoples where they migrated to, much like those of the Golden Horde, but there is still nothing particularly "Scythian Iron Age Steppe" in the admixtures that seem to have come from the Slavic expansion. Instead, what they really look like is very close to that of people that were Baltic-speaking in the past or now.

Finally, I also didn't understand why you're talking about Vikings in Rus' and their foundation of Novgorod. That happened centuries AFTER the Slavic migrations started and when the Vikings came Proto-Slavic had already been expanding and even diverging into many different dialects for a long time, so it has nothing to do with their ethnogenesis.

Anyhow, if you have evidences of the occurrence of actual and very intense intermixing (I don't deny that some interbreeding and assimilation must've happened, of course), not just cultural influence, I'll be glad to receive them because Slavic ethnogenesis would be even more interesting if that had indeed occurred. That would also make some sense since Proto-Slavic probably appeared right to the north of where Sarmatians, Alans and Goths lived in the Late Antiquity.

Main statements of linguists are that ancestor of modern Baltic speakers, and ancestors of modern Slavic speakers divided from each other somewhere about 1500 BC. This man is claiming that they separated in 5-6th century AD.

About other things, you explained well. (y)
 
why would anyone assume, that M458 were linguistically proto-slavic all their existence(in that confined space)

Maybe is not linguistically, but genetically it is. And even M458 is described here, on Eupedia, as proto-Slavic branch. This is not questionable that proto-Slavs are R1a-M458 + R1a-Z280. Even the administrator of Family Tree DNA proved it many times.


And baltic languages have all the vocabulary base, morphology and syntax, that are lost in slavic.

Yes. But there are many things in Slavic which never appeared in Baltic languages. Such as suffix "-elj" ("učitelj" (teacher), "graditelj" (builder), "branitelj" (defender)) and many other suffix, which i explained in post above, which linguists can't explain, and me myself also. By the way suffix "-elj" is typical for all Slavic countries, from Macedonia to the Russia, while it is unexistant among Baltic languages. Relations between Baltic and Slavic are not explained well yet! There are many mysterious things about it. You can't compare it with differentiations among Germanic languages, that would be totally nonsense!
 
If you say there was one proto-language that unites Baltic and Slavic, then it becomes fruitless to argue whether it should be called Baltic, Slavic or Balto-Slavic.
Both modern Baltic and modern Slavic languages have went through quite some changes since those days.
 
Maybe is not linguistically, but genetically it is. And even M458 is described here, on Eupedia, as proto-Slavic branch. This is not questionable that proto-Slavs are R1a-M458 + R1a-Z280. Even the administrator of Family Tree DNA proved it many times.




Yes. But there are many things in Slavic which never appeared in Baltic languages. Such as suffix "-elj" ("učitelj" (teacher), "graditelj" (builder), "branitelj" (defender)) and many other suffix, which i explained in post above, which linguists can't explain, and me myself also. By the way suffix "-elj" is typical for all Slavic countries, from Macedonia to the Russia, while it is unexistant among Baltic languages. Relations between Baltic and Slavic are not explained well yet! There are many mysterious things about it. You can't compare it with differentiations among Germanic languages, that would be totally nonsense!
Suffix -elis is normal for Latvian.
Ziemelis - winter wind. Ziema - winter.
 
Maybe is not linguistically, but genetically it is. And even M458 is described here, on Eupedia, as proto-Slavic branch. This is not questionable that proto-Slavs are R1a-M458 + R1a-Z280. Even the administrator of Family Tree DNA proved it many times.


Yes. But there are many things in Slavic which never appeared in Baltic languages. Such as suffix "-elj" ("učitelj" (teacher), "graditelj" (builder), "branitelj" (defender)) and many other suffix, which i explained in post above, which linguists can't explain, and me myself also. By the way suffix "-elj" is typical for all Slavic countries, from Macedonia to the Russia, while it is unexistant among Baltic languages. Relations between Baltic and Slavic are not explained well yet! There are many mysterious things about it. You can't compare it with differentiations among Germanic languages, that would be totally nonsense!


Eupedia is not an academically supported site. And yes, it is QUESTIONABLE considering there are NO ancient DNA samples for M458. Who its dominant in today is irrelevant. Where are your ancient samples proving its unquestionable connection to Slavic? Because no ancient DNA has been found. It has already been made clear to you. Even Caucasus populations have it. The Dargins for instance, on the Southern end of the Caucasus has 22% R1a-M458. The damn Turkic Nogai also have old basal M458. Using your reasoning all E-V13 is Albanian because its dominant in Albanians. See how silly that sounds?

Until ancient DNA surfaces for M458, your words are just words without legs.
 
Main statements of linguists are that ancestor of modern Baltic speakers, and ancestors of modern Slavic speakers divided from each other somewhere about 1500 BC. This man is claiming that they separated in 5-6th century AD.

About other things, you explained well. (y)

Thanks. Yes, there is no doubt that the separation between Proto-Baltic and Proto-Slavic was relatively early, with most estimates ranging between 1,000 and 1,500 BC, even if they clearly came from the same IE ancestral language and probably arose from the same Corded Ware horizon. But still I think many people get confused at this because of the very late appearance of Proto-Slavic as one common lanuage that gave us all the modern Slavic languages, which suggests to many that,, no, the immediate ancestor of Proto-Slavic can't be that old. It shouldn't be that confusing. We have many examples of one daughter language replacing all the other daughter languages that belonged to the same branch. Latin superseded all other Italic languages. Later Celtic languages, associated with the Hallstatt and especially La Tene cultures, most probably replaced all other earlier Celtic or maybe Para-Celtic languages that also derived from Proto-Italo-Celtic. That same way, the most probable thing is that Proto-Slavic was just the "Latin of Eastern Europe" that for some reason became a prestigious lingua franca and the main language of immigrant armies and bands. There were certainly other languages similar to it in an "Old Slavic family", but they were easily replaced by a very closely related and much more useful language, (Late) Proto-Slavic.
 

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