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Thread: How to divide Slavs from Balts, and vice-versa before 6th century?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by teftelis View Post
    First of all none of Balts carry N-VL29 , all N1 in Balts is downstream from it from a younger clade it as I've mentioned above under N-L1025, I don't think you grasp this. Moreover there's no evidence of contacts between Balts and Mari people. Other thing N1 in Baltic states shows up around 700-500BC as seen in Genetic prehistory of Baltic sea region, where they find no N1 Baltic until 500BC, the upcoming Estonian study also find N1 appearing around 700-500BC in Estonia. Earliest sample with N1 in Balts is from 350-650AD and based on some models shows up minor Finland_Karelia like admixture. Again pointing that Finnic like population was vector of N1c in Balts not Mari like. Second thing I didn't say Mordivian is language I said Mordvinic speakers later reffered to them as Mordvins both Erzya and Moksha fall under this umbrella term. As evidenced that Baltic loanwords are only found loanwords are only in Finnic and Mordvinic, while Mari is closely related to Mordvinic it's more eastern branch and it doesn't show any hard evidence for contact with early Baltic speakers. Quote from Baltic loanwords in Mordvinic by Riho Grünthal:

    "Traditionally, it ismaintained that the Mordvinic languages share more vocabulary and grammatical features with the Finnic languages than with more eastern Uralic languages,such as Mari, the Permic languages, Hungarian, Ob-Ugric, and the Samoyediclanguages (Bartens 1999: 13; Bereczki 1988: 314; Hajdú 1962: 94–97, 1981: 54;Häkkinen 1997: 162–210; Terho Itkonen 1997: 247–260; Keresztes 1987: 32–43)"

    "More generally speaking, there are very few Mari words that are supposed to beBaltic borrowings. None of these etymologies is plausible (Mägiste 1959)"

    Also what Erzya and Moksha loanwords in Lithuanian are you talking about? As far as I'm aware there are none and I've read about this subject thoroughly unless you have some sort of secret information.
    I don't think you grasp, N also is a clade and that N-L1025 also can have downstream clades - they are not constricted on how many child branches they can have, so 93% of Lithuanian N can belong to N-VL29 and also it will be the same to say, that 93% of N of Lithuanian belongs to N-L1025. Clade is just another word for branch. Lets not make it more complex than it is already ;)

    Here is a text from wiki I'm refering, why I'm calling it Mari, because Mordvins share it at lesser frequency:
    N1a1a1a1a1a-CTS2929/VL29 Found with high frequency among Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, northwestern Russians, Swedish Saami, Karelians, Nenetses, Finns, and Maris, moderate frequency among other Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, and Poles, and low frequency among Komis, Mordva, Tatars, Chuvashes, Dolgans, Vepsa, Selkups, Karanogays, and Bashkirs[3]
    I don't have a link to Kasperaviciute published data on 2004, but you can find them a lot easier, where 93% of Lithuanians share same clade as Mari. There is also similar publication on Latvian and Estonian data, but Estonians have different proportions, but again quote from wiki(which is not reliable source, but in this case it is solely used to identify clade):

    N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936,CTS10082 Found with high frequency among Finns, Vepsa, Karelians, Swedish Saami, northwestern Russians, Bashkirs, and Volga Tatars, moderate frequency among other Russians, Komis, Nenetses, Ob-Ugrians, Dolgans, and Siberian Tatars, and low frequency among Mordva, Nganasans, Chuvashes, Estonians, Latvians, Ukrainians, and Karanogays[3] 
    Baltic-Uralic mixed cultures expanded up to Mari territory. Also, Mari(before known as Cheremis) inhabited a lot bigger territory than Mari-El republic covers now - actually native Mari speakers still live outside Mari-El, too. Besides, there is a question of Meryan as westward expansion of Mari, which is very close to modern Baltic speakers. So if we are discussing such ancient times, then Mari did not exist at that time and neither any of modern Baltic nations - that is true, but their ancestors did exist and they mingled. I'm using Mari solely because that is more closer as a top branch of Finnic and reusing naming seems like logic choice. Think of it as a clade but in linguistics. ;)

    I, honestly, don't understand why everyone is so fixed on loanwords - also I did not even mention them. Loanwords do not change language - grammar does!
    Common Latin changed into different languages, English changed from its original form - and it is impossible to claim, that Latvian and Lithuanian ancestor languages did not change even after they were influencing Uralic on Volga basin for a very long time, unlike other Baltic languages in Baltic region. And language of Latvian and Lithuanian ancestors should have changed, compared to other Baltic languages, as a mixed R1a-N1a group - actually it is different from substrate of more archaic local Baltic.


    PS This clearly is an off-topic, but I'm ready to post anything for amusement of OP - even discuss N1a in R1a topic... :]

  2. #152
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    "I don't think you grasp, N also is a clade and that N-L1025 also can have downstream clades - they are not constricted on how many child branches they can have, so 93% of Lithuanian N can belong to N-VL29 and also it will be the same to say, that 93% of N of Lithuanian belongs to N-L1025. Clade is just another word for branch. Lets not make it more complex than it is already ;)"

    Juggling buzzowords won't make you any righter. You still don't understand that Mari are upstream and carry older branches which isn't found among Balts.

    "I don't have a link to Kasperaviciute published data on 2004, but you can find them a lot easier, where 93% of Lithuanians share same clade as Mari. There is also similar publication on Latvian and Estonian data, but Estonians have different proportions, but again quote from wiki(which is not reliable source, but in this case it is solely used to identify clade)"

    You're quoting a 15 year old study they couldn't test very downstream branches/clades back then, going by your logic everyone who has N is Chinese because that's where oldest clades and basal clades are found. I think you need to a lot more studying to do on DNA. In other thread you said you don't care autosomal DNA and all that matters is Y-DNA. If you make such claims you're and trying to argue about ancient history from a genetic points of view you should just stop already. Your reasoning was "because the main tendency is that neighbours have the same,".

    "Baltic-Uralic mixed cultures expanded up to Mari territory. Also, Mari(before known as Cheremis) inhabited a lot bigger territory than Mari-El republic covers now - actually native Mari speakers still live outside Mari-El, too. Besides, there is a question of Meryan as westward expansion of Mari, which is very close to modern Baltic speakers. So if we are discussing such ancient times, then Mari did not exist at that time and neither any of modern Baltic nations - that is true, but their ancestors did exist and they mingled. I'm using Mari solely because that is more closer as a top branch of Finnic and reusing naming seems like logic choice. Think of it as a clade but in linguistics. ;)"

    What Balto-Uralic mixed cultures? How very close Mari is to modern Baltic speakers what the hell are you even talking about? Becaues they're neither close in terms of autosomal ancestry, nor linguistically the they belong to completely different language group.

    "
    I, honestly, don't understand why everyone is so fixed on loanwords - also I did not even mention them."

    You don't understand a lot of things it seems, loanwords are very useful in helping to follow contacts between peoples and see sound change laws, some loanwords if it concerns some technology even allow to pin point the time frame of supposed contacts.

    Also you obviously did mention loanwords in your previous post.

    "So, a million dollar question for you: From which ones - Erzya or Moksha Lithuanians have those loanwords?" Post 144.

    So again I'm asking what are those loanwords? Because you dodged this question again.



  3. #153
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    * Mari N1a are downstream to the same ancestors as Lithuanian N1a - they have their own clades, that might not have been researched yet, so you have an idea fix, that they are upstream unchanged. It is thou, that have no understanding on how thou dna works!

    * Are you claiming to be an alien and your DNA is working differently?



    * 15 years old study is fresh - still fresherr than the topic we are on. 15 years ago there were no downstream clades - not because they could not test them, but because they were not classified as such.

    * Yes, N in Europe comes from China. Do you have other suggestions?

    * Is this becoming something about my persona? I'm afraid I am not interested in thou, even if I have plenty of free time that I'm using on this. ;)



    * Cultures =/= languages. English is not that hard to understand.



    * We can argue about usability of loanwords, but how they are making structural language changes, which makes them apart from other languages, who might be using exactly the same loanwords?


    * You brought loanwords in - not me. So, which ones? Again - I have no need to bring them in, because I did not made that claim. Just support your claim and bring them in - Moksha, Soksha, Erzya or others - I do not care.




    I feel like this is more as an attack on my person, than even what I've written. You have no idea who I am and what are my skills and you are offering me to study. Are you providing those studies? Are you the teacher? Mind your manners, please.

  4. #154
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    15 years in genetic field isn't fresh, genetics have come a long way since then don't act stupid and I brought up studies to inform yourself better on the current views in archaeology not your own opinions. Another point is still that you don't get it, if Mari like population was the source of N1 in Baltics you'd expect to see at least some older branches in Balts like the Mari people have, but all of it some from a young clade dated to around 600BC, all Mari are upstream of it. Also you still brought up loanwords by yourself in 144# post mentioning Erzya and Moksha loanwords in Lithuanian and still haven't answered which are those yet. Moreover N-VL29 in Mari's is at very low frequency it's even more common in Nenets or Saamis than in Mari'sagain rather pointing origin of N1 in Balts else from elsewhere than from Maris, N-VL29 comes in dead in last in frequency. As per Ilumae et al. (2016) data. 93% of Lithuanians don't share the same clade as Maris, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    11.JPG






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