Who were R1a-M458 and what was their language most likely?

[RajvoSa]

Who were R1a-M458 and what was their language most likely?

[Dibran]

Who were R1a-M458 and what was their language most likely?

I am curious to know the same. Many posit Proto-Slavic tribes. Probable but a tunnel vision view. There is currently no ancient DNA samples of M458. So, currently most of it is just speculation, some of which is well educated, based on modern distributions.

Many think it originated around Poland and East Germany. If this is the case, it could have spread with Slavs and Ostrogoths in the early middle ages. Some have stated(and I have yet to find a source confirming this) that the most R1a diversity is in Romania, around the Morava. This is not too far from one of the theoretical Urheimats of Slavs. I wouldn't know who could have spread it if from the Morava. Maybe Ostrogoths? Slavs? Getae? Maybe Sarmatians? who the hell knows lol. Without ancient DNA its mostly speculation. But, the most probable case is the Slavic tribes, like the Sklavenoi in the middle ages. Some cases may be with Goths. There is even M458 in England which could have arrived with Viking invasions that brought Pomeranian Slavs? I think the classification "Germano-Slavic" stated here on Eupedia may be true. If it spread from Poland/East Germany, it mostly would be carried by Slavic and East Germanic tribes.

[RajvoSa]

I am curious to know the same. Many posit Proto-Slavic tribes. Probable but a tunnel vision view. There is currently no ancient DNA samples of M458. So, currently most of it is just speculation, some of which is well educated, based on modern distributions.

Many think it originated around Poland and East Germany. If this is the case, it could have spread with Slavs and Ostrogoths in the early middle ages. Some have stated(and I have yet to find a source confirming this) that the most R1a diversity is in Romania, around the Morava. This is not too far from one of the theoretical Urheimats of Slavs. I wouldn't know who could have spread it if from the Morava. Maybe Ostrogoths? Slavs? Getae? Maybe Sarmatians? who the hell knows lol. Without ancient DNA its mostly speculation. But, the most probable case is the Slavic tribes, like the Sklavenoi in the middle ages. Some cases may be with Goths. There is even M458 in England which could have arrived with Viking invasions that brought Pomeranian Slavs? I think the classification "Germano-Slavic" stated here on Eupedia may be true. If it spread from Poland/East Germany, it mostly would be carried by Slavic and East Germanic tribes.

Thanks. Also the question is what was their proto-language. More closer to Germanic, or Balto-Slavic, or even an independent individual one?!

[Dibran]

Thanks. Also the question is what was their proto-language. More closer to Germanic, or Balto-Slavic, or even an independent individual one?!

I am pretty sure Proto-Slavic. I think because it spread with Corded Ware, which if I remember correctly, were a pivotal contributor to Proto-Balto-Slavic. M458 by most is considered Proto-Slavic. But, I think(given modern distribution), that Germano-Slavic makes the most sense.

[RajvoSa]

I am pretty sure Proto-Slavic. I think because it spread with Corded Ware, which if I remember correctly, were a pivotal contributor to Proto-Balto-Slavic. M458 by most is considered Proto-Slavic. But, I think(given modern distribution), that Germano-Slavic makes the most sense.

Maybe they are the factor what makes Slavic different from the Baltic languages.

[twójstary]

M458 in Germany is from West Slavic origin, they're obviously Germanic speakers right now, but originally they were Slavic Polabians. If you want to go that route and call it "Germano-Slavic". Then perhaps you should call R1b U106 in Poland and Czech "Slavo-Germanic". Same kind of logic applies here.

[RajvoSa]

M458 in Germany is from West Slavic origin, they're obviously Germanic speakers right now, but originally they were Slavic Polabians. If you want to go that route and call it "Germano-Slavic". Then perhaps you should call R1b U106 in Poland and Czech "Slavo-Germanic". Same kind of logic applies here.

In science, M458 is called just Slavic, becouse it's primarly Slavic. But the question is what language they spoke in Central Europe before the proto-Slavic is formed.

[Dibran]

M458 in Germany is from West Slavic origin, they're obviously Germanic speakers right now, but originally they were Slavic Polabians. If you want to go that route and call it "Germano-Slavic". Then perhaps you should call R1b U106 in Poland and Czech "Slavo-Germanic". Same kind of logic applies here.

Perhaps. But, without ancient YDNA samples, its mere speculation. We have no ancient samples, so conclusions drawn on modern distributions may provide hints but are not telling.

[Dibran]

In science, M458 is called just Slavic, becouse it's primarly Slavic. But the question is what language they spoke in Central Europe before the proto-Slavic is formed.

New update,

My Albanian Y37 match ordered the M458 SNP panel at Yseq.

Per Michal and Trojet, the STR prediction of me and him forming an "Albanian" sub-branch below L1029 was correct, since he is confirmed L1029+ and negative for all its sub-branches. Perhaps we can get a more adjusted and accurate TMRCA confirmed. Just waiting to hear from Trojet. The next step is to order BigY for my father during sale, to define our cluster on Yfull.

[RajvoSa]

New update,

My Albanian Y37 match ordered the M458 SNP panel at Yseq.

Per Michal and Trojet, the STR prediction of me and him forming an "Albanian" sub-branch below L1029 was correct, since he is confirmed L1029+ and negative for all its sub-branches. Perhaps we can get a more adjusted and accurate TMRCA confirmed. Just waiting to hear from Trojet. The next step is to order BigY for my father during sale, to define our cluster on Yfull.

How it come even to Albania?

[Dibran]

How it come even to Albania?

Slavic, or possibly Ostrogothic tribes. It formed a founder effect within Albania, defining mine and my matches shared "Albanian" cluster under L1029*. So far shared only between us with a TMRCA between 1000-1600ypb.

[lyakh]

M458 appears for me to be associated with the expansion of Slavs which took place about 1500 ybp, not with East Germanic tribes. M458 probably does not come from Poland, but from area east of it, in northern Ukraine, Belarus or some western parts of Russia (Middle Dnieper basin). I suppose that M458 holders spoke proto-Slavic language about 2000 ybp. Earlier they, in my opinion, spoke older pra-Slavic language from Balto-Slavic family (maybe proto-Balto-Slavic).

Vast majority of M458 is CTS11962 (TMRCA about 3000 ybp, there are two sublineages of CTS11962 (YP515 and (larger) L1029) which have TMRCA about 2000 ybp) or L260 (TMRCA about 2500 ybp, there are two sublineages of L260 (YP256 and YP1337) with TMRCA about 2000 ybp).

[LeBrok]

M458 appears for me to be associated with the expansion of Slavs which took place about 1500 ybp, not with East Germanic tribes. M458 probably does not come from Poland, but from area east of it, in northern Ukraine, Belarus or some western parts of Russia (Middle Dnieper basin). I suppose that M458 holders spoke proto-Slavic language about 2000 ybp. Earlier they, in my opinion, spoke older pra-Slavic language from Balto-Slavic family (maybe proto-Balto-Slavic).

Vast majority of M458 is CTS11962 (TMRCA about 3000 ybp, there are two sublineages of CTS11962 (YP515 and (larger) L1029) which have TMRCA about 2000 ybp) or L260 (TMRCA about 2500 ybp, there are two sublineages of L260 (YP256 and YP1337) with TMRCA about 2000 ybp).

Exactly like my view on this matter.

[/Serg/]

They were Slavic people, a branch known as "Polesskie slaviane". In Slavic languages, "Les" means forest, "sloboda" means village, they were tribes who lives near forests. "Poland", "Polsha" is a country with the same name.

The same for the name "Russia", it has originated as "Porechenskie slaviane", those who lives near rivers, commonly Dnepr or Ruza. "Porechje" became "Porussjia" then "Russija" and then "Rossia" (so, today's language has no words similar or closer to the country name).

The same about Belorussia, it's about the river called Ruza, or just "the River".

[RajvoSa]

The same about Belorussia, it's about the river called Ruza, or just "the River".

The name Rus' surely came with Varangian Rus' tribe.

[/Serg/]

The name Rus' surely came with Varangian Rus' tribe.

Wikipedia states that "Varangians" (or "Varjagi" - warriors in modern pronouncation) were people of Scandinavian origin. It's known fact that they were widely lived in the north of the country, and even the name of a capital, - Moscow, - has nothing in common with bridges or cows, it's a word from northern language, as many villages in suburbian area. Historical books, of course, doesn't clarify that question.

Long time before of IX-X ages, Slovenians (from "sloboda" - the village, a place to live in) or Slavic people were farmers who settled down near the rivers. Some time ago I doubted that "river" could became the root for the name of the nation but it seems to be true: "rus" means just a river in old language, so Austrian family name "Ruban" and Belorussian family name "Ruwba" means fishermen ("ruwba" also means a fish, "ryba").

Some sources, like "Povest' vremennyh let" ("The Old Time Story") argues that a name of the old capital, Kiev, was a name of the local ruler which name was Key. I doubted too but he and his sister were historical persons.

Greek historians, especially Konstantin The Emperiour, were correct. But those tribes originated years before their manuscripts and books were written.

[qtr]

А. Зубов is a professor, who have some lectures in YT channel of Novaya gazeta(in russian). Not all of them are interesting to me, as I am specifically interested in ancient times and how they are connected with people, but he mentioned that descendant of Rjurik in late 19th century or early 20th century considered himself Rus, but people of Russia - not Rus. Besides - it makes sense to call land Russian, as they reigned over it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyd6f7HpwOA
This is one of his recent lectures(have not seen it, though) about 1917. I am sure, that one of the lectures of Novaya Gazeta channel contains his given information about this citation, that he gave about Rjurik.

[qtr]

Wikipedia states that "Varangians" (or "Varjagi" - warriors in modern pronouncation) were people of Scandinavian origin. It's known fact that they were widely lived in the north of the country, and even the name of a capital, - Moscow, - has nothing in common with bridges or cows, it's a word from northern language, as many villages in suburbian area. Historical books, of course, doesn't clarify that question.

Long time before of IX-X ages, Slovenians (from "sloboda" - the village, a place to live in) or Slavic people were farmers who settled down near the rivers. Some time ago I doubted that "river" could became the root for the name of the nation but it seems to be true: "rus" means just a river in old language, so Austrian family name "Ruban" and Belorussian family name "Ruwba" means fishermen ("ruwba" also means a fish, "ryba").

Some sources, like "Povest' vremennyh let" ("The Old Time Story") argues that a name of the old capital, Kiev, was a name of the local ruler which name was Key. I doubted too but he and his sister were historical persons.

Greek historians, especially Konstantin The Emperiour, were correct. But those tribes originated years before their manuscripts and books were written.

Varjagi most probably in slavic was vorjugi - looters, as that is what vikings also did.

There are a lot of viking influences in russian language - one of the most famous is beremenna - which clearly means, that vikings were more interested, that local women bear male children, than female... it is scandinavian name - it has nothing to do with slavic.

Повѣсть времѧньныхъ лѣтъ had some heavy editing and comes from 12th century - it told about creation of Rus, which is not really that great help about topic, if you don't have any other sources to compare.

Rus did not had capital Moscow - it was Kiev. Moscow was established long after viking conquest era in that region and has name from river. It wasn't even in existence, when this chronicle was written.

[Dibran]

M458 appears for me to be associated with the expansion of Slavs which took place about 1500 ybp, not with East Germanic tribes. M458 probably does not come from Poland, but from area east of it, in northern Ukraine, Belarus or some western parts of Russia (Middle Dnieper basin). I suppose that M458 holders spoke proto-Slavic language about 2000 ybp. Earlier they, in my opinion, spoke older pra-Slavic language from Balto-Slavic family (maybe proto-Balto-Slavic).

Vast majority of M458 is CTS11962 (TMRCA about 3000 ybp, there are two sublineages of CTS11962 (YP515 and (larger) L1029) which have TMRCA about 2000 ybp) or L260 (TMRCA about 2500 ybp, there are two sublineages of L260 (YP256 and YP1337) with TMRCA about 2000 ybp).

CTS11962 formed 4500ypb and has a TMRCA of 3200ypb not 3000. Sure, semantics, but with aging it means everything. Additionally, if we use Michals aging methods, the TMRCA could likely be as far back as 3500ypb. Which would mean the TMRCA of L1029 is between 2000-2300ypb.

Additionally, this user vayda gathers a great deal of data, creating maps for not only L1029, but sub-cluster maps. All recent and up to date. http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/

I belong to a founder effect within L1029 B-Western. My relation to other L1029 is between 2000-2300ypb. Additionally B-Western is most common in Germany and Poland(most diversity occurring here). As far as the Balkans, the overwhelming majority of L1029 is part of M458 B-Eastern(YP417 and downstream clades).

For instance, L1029 B-Western only makes up 20 percent or so of Bulgarian M458, which is predominantly YP417 and downstream clades. As far as the Balkans M458-B-Western is most common in Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, Greece. M458 reaches minimal percentages elsewhere in the Balkans, of which most belongs to M458-B-Eastern clades.

The center of B-Western is Germany and Poland with a West-East cline. Most West Slavs are predominantly part of M458 A-Western(L260 and its clades). Context is everything. It is likely Proto-Slavic, but there is no guarantee the carrier in my case(given founder effect and only another Albanian in my branch) actually spoke Slavic. Could have for all we know been a Germanized Proto-Slav that arrived with Goths. Otherwise this cluster(or mine specifically) should have a higher percentage in the Balkans.

The Goths swept through Eastern Europe on their way into the Balkans and could have likely assimilated it among other Proto-Slavic clades. Z280/Z92/YP417/YP515/I2a1b-Din are the strongest correlation with Sclavenoi and Antes migrations into the Balkans. They also make up great a deal of R1a in the Balkans outside of Bulgaria and Romania whom have equal or higher levels of M458 compare to Z280.

If my ancestor spoke Slavic, given no one but another Albanian shared my branch, then it could have arrived atypically as a merchant from the Amber Road(or slave ). Or even a earlier Antes Mercenary for the Romans against the Huns(3-400AD). Too much pseudo science and broad generalizations are made in this field.

There is also no ancient YDNA for M458 or its subclades. Which makes most of the assumption well educated conjecture for all positions involved. The only ADNA we have for M458 are late middle age samples. This doesn't tell us anything about where they were with a definite position in the early middle ages or late iron age. Take into consideration the turbulent times of the late iron and early middle ages as well as the shifting borders and lack of national consciousness than it makes it more difficult to really know without ancient YDNA samples. One sample is not enough to really make a full conclusion let alone broad generalizations off of no ancient samples.

[Sile]

CTS11962 formed 4500ypb and has a TMRCA of 3200ypb not 3000. Sure, semantics, but with aging it means everything. Additionally, if we use Michals aging methods, the TMRCA could likely be as far back as 3500ypb. Which would mean the TMRCA of L1029 is between 2000-2300ypb.

Additionally, this user vayda gathers a great deal of data, creating maps for not only L1029, but sub-cluster maps. All recent and up to date. http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/

I belong to a founder effect within L1029 B-Western. My relation to other L1029 is between 2000-2300ypb. Additionally B-Western is most common in Germany and Poland(most diversity occurring here). As far as the Balkans, the overwhelming majority of L1029 is part of M458 B-Eastern(YP417 and downstream clades).

For instance, L1029 B-Western only makes up 20 percent or so of Bulgarian M458, which is predominantly YP417 and downstream clades. As far as the Balkans M458-B-Western is most common in Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, Greece. M458 reaches minimal percentages elsewhere in the Balkans, of which most belongs to M458-B-Eastern clades.

The center of B-Western is Germany and Poland with a West-East cline. Most West Slavs are predominantly part of M458 A-Western(L260 and its clades). Context is everything. It is likely Proto-Slavic, but there is no guarantee the carrier in my case(given founder effect and only another Albanian in my branch) actually spoke Slavic. Could have for all we know been a Germanized Proto-Slav that arrived with Goths. Otherwise this cluster(or mine specifically) should have a higher percentage in the Balkans.

The Goths swept through Eastern Europe on their way into the Balkans and could have likely assimilated it among other Proto-Slavic clades. Z280/Z92/YP417/YP515/I2a1b-Din are the strongest correlation with Sclavenoi and Antes migrations into the Balkans. They also make of the great deal of R1a in the Balkans outside of Bulgaria and Romania whom have equal or higher levels of M458.

If my ancestor spoke Slavic, given no one but another Albanian shared my branch, then it could have arrived atypically as a merchant. Or even a earlier Antes Mercenary for the Romans against the Huns(3-400AD). Too much pseudo science and broad generalizations are made in this field.

There is also no ancient YDNA for M458 or its subclades. Which makes most of the assumption well educated conjecture for all positions involved. The only ADNA we have for M458 are late middle age samples. This doesn't tell us anything about where they were with a definite position in the early middle ages or late iron age. Take into consideration the turbulent times of the late iron and early middle ages as well as the shifting borders and lack of national consciousness than it makes it more difficult to really know without ancient YDNA samples. One sample is not enough to really make a full conclusion let alone broad generalizations off of no ancient samples.

ybp is measured from January 1950AD .........your L1029, if it is 2000ybp would mean 50BC

[Dibran]

ybp is measured from January 1950AD .........your L1029, if it is 2000ybp would mean 50BC

Could you elaborate? L1029 was discovered in 2012 only 6 years ago...

Yfull also updates estimates. Theoretically(if they apply Michals estimates in their aging) it should be between 2000-2300ypb....


According to a google search: Before Present (BP) years is a time scale used mainly in geology and other scientific disciplines to specify when events occurred in the past. Because the "present" time changes, standard practice is to use 1 January 1950 as the commencement date of the age scale, reflecting the origin of practical radiocarbon dating in the 1950s. The abbreviation "BP", with the same meaning, has also been interpreted^[1] as "Before Physics"; that is, before nuclear weapons testing artificially altered the proportion of the carbon isotopes in the atmosphere, making dating after that time likely to be unreliable.


L1029 was only discovered in 2012, so that doesn't change what I said. Using Michals estimates its likely within that range.

[MaxCRO]

proto west slavic imo.

[Dibran]

proto west slavic imo.

Maybe. We still need ancient YDNA(500AD and earlier) to make any hypothesis. Modern distributions don't mean much. That would only be for its subclades any way. M458(if that is what you called proto-west slavic) Formed 4200BC and as a MRCA of 3200BC. That is 4200 years ago. Proto-Slavic was only attested in the early middle ages as Slavic and its languages didn't diverge until the middle/high-middle ages.

It could be Proto-Balto Slavic. But there was no such thing as Proto-West Slavic in 3200BC. L260 could be Proto-West Slavic, as this is the prevailing clade among them. M458 and its subclades still remain a mystery until ancient DNA surfaces. Not even one sample is conclusive, yet, alot is said about it with no samples. Lets wait and see.

[Srbadija]

Maybe. We still need ancient YDNA(500AD and earlier) to make any hypothesis. Modern distributions don't mean much. That would only be for its subclades any way. M458(if that is what you called proto-west slavic) Formed 4200BC and as a MRCA of 3200BC. That is 4200 years ago. Proto-Slavic was only attested in the early middle ages as Slavic and its languages didn't diverge until the middle/high-middle ages.

It could be Proto-Balto Slavic. But there was no such thing as Proto-West Slavic in 3200BC. L260 could be Proto-West Slavic, as this is the prevailing clade among them. M458 and its subclades still remain a mystery until ancient DNA surfaces. Not even one sample is conclusive, yet, alot is said about it with no samples. Lets wait and see.

Proto-Balto-Slavic could be Z280. But M458 could easily be just Slavic, or pre-Slavic, but not Baltic really.

[Dibran]

Proto-Balto-Slavic could be Z280. But M458 could easily be just Slavic, or pre-Slavic, but not Baltic really.

No aDNA. Idk how many times I have to repeat myself. Z280 has been found in abundance from samples dating Bronze, Iron, and early middle ages. It is virtually found everywhere in Slavs in significant amounts. There is no ADNA for M458 or any of its subclades from before the 12th century. Which means absolutely nothing. We need samples 500AD and earlier to make any assumptions. It is literally highest in Central Europe, and practically fades to nothingness further east with a huge drop. It should be the reverse considering migratory patterns of the Slavic tribes from East to West. It is highest between the Elbe and the Oder and likely developed somewhere there. In the Balkans, with the exception of Bulgarians and Romanians, it reaches extremely low percentages elsewhere. Entire M458 in Serbia for instance is only 4 percent. Z280/I2-Din has the highest concentration in all Slavic countries. M458 is highest in Central Europe/West Slavs. Even then they mostly belong to L260, with L1029 being dominant in Germany Poland and South-West Belarus. If it is Slavic it is Proto-Slavic. If not, then Pre-Slavic. The only definite Slavic clades are the downstream clades from L260/L1029/YP515 that match the dating of the great migration wave. Like I said, Proto-Slavic was attested up to the late iron and early middle ages. Slavic was 5th-7th century. With common slavic and its language branches diverging in the high middle ages. Slavic as attested in the 5th and 7th centuries did not develop in 3200BC.