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Thread: Understanding 6th-Cent Barbarian Social Organization & Migration thru Paleogenomics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Can it be Slavic? This is around the time of the Slavic migration and this area might have been one of the starting points to cross the Danube. I was actually expecting some I2a2, but also a little more R1a, so the lack of it seems a little strange to me, although the sample is small to tell for sure. Maybe within the Slavic "home" areas I2a2 was more southwestern than R1a, so as there were many waves going South, heavily I2a2 waves crossed the Danube first, followed then by slightly more balanced I2a2-R1a waves later.
    Are you sure that you didn't mean I2a1 instead of I2a2?

    I2a2 is not the typical Slavic clade: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_...oups.shtml#I2b
    Neopisivo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Can it be Slavic? This is around the time of the Slavic migration and this area might have been one of the starting points to cross the Danube. I was actually expecting some I2a2, but also a little more R1a, so the lack of it seems a little strange to me, although the sample is small to tell for sure. Maybe within the Slavic "home" areas I2a2 was more southwestern than R1a, so as there were many waves going South, heavily I2a2 waves crossed the Danube first, followed then by slightly more balanced I2a2-R1a waves later.
    Yeah, I was thinking about this too. The people with these precise haplogroups aren't coming out very "Slavic" at all in terms of autosomal make up, however, They come out as closest to Cerman or English, French etc. You'll see what I mean in the next post.

    Of course, that's not dispositive as yDna and autosomal can be discordant to some degree.

    This is what they say in the paper:

    ". A consistent percentage of haplotypes belongs to the I haplogroup (26.4%), both in the I1a and, more abundantly, in I2a2 sub-haplogroups. They are particularly frequent in the northern Balkans with a westward gradient in central and western Europe, with some lineages belonging to I2a2a1b particularly common in the Germanic region."

    Ed. No one has held it's a particularly "Slavic" clade.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Are you sure that you didn't mean I2a1 instead of I2a2?

    I2a2 is not the typical Slavic clade: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_...oups.shtml#I2b
    Actually yes, I thought I saw I2a2 :). My bad!

    I guess it's not nearly as Slavic as I thought it would be. I2a1 fits their supposed original territory better though.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Actually yes, I thought I saw I2a2 :). My bad!

    I guess it's not nearly as Slavic as I thought it would be. I2a1 fits their supposed original territory better though.
    However, there are 2 "Avar" samples that appear to be of Slavic origin. Autosomally, no Y-DNA.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    For those who doubt there were people in Northwest Italy who were proposed by the authors as Southern Italian like/Sicilian like, they might want to take a look at the following. The ones who weren't that "southern" were Tuscan like, so even if some of that is because of movement from the south, it seems that unless the modeling shows this is wrong, northern Italy was more "southern" before the Lombards came than it was afterwards. So, as I proposed when that paper came out by Hellenthal et al (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/343/6172/747, and to some extent Sarno et al), the mixing agent might be "Northern" at the beginning of the medieval period, not Byzantine like or whatever they were claiming, and they got the timing as well as the direction of flow wrong.

    In fact, there were Sicilian like people buried in Szolad.

    None of these very "southern" men carry very "exotic" y, either, not even J2, much less J1, except for one E-13. In fact, in Colegno, you have one E-V13, one G2a1, one I1a3,, and one T1a2b. All the rest are R1b1.

    Anyway, here it is:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Wow I had no idea Sicilian like people were in northwest Italy at that time, that's cool info, thanks!
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Results vary by reference sample used, and we really need more detailed analysis.

    My point was that I wasn't incorrect in saying that some parts of the paper do show this.

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    Some of the y calls are very interesting indeed:

    Look at all the R1b U-106 in the Lombard cemetery in Pannonia

    SZ16, SZ23, SZ22, SZ2, SZ11 and SZ4.

    I only see one CL U-106: CL84.

    Was it diluted as they picked up more men after they left Pannonia, or did it vary by area in Italy and we'll find more elsewhere? I ask because there's much more U-106 in Italy than that would indicate.

    OK, the Lombards have worn me out. Back to real life.

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    POPRES means Population Reference Sample. And what does HellBus mean?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    POPRES means Population Reference Sample. And what does HellBus mean?
    "HellBus​: The same imputation procedure was carried out on 512,368 SNPs in 1,582European and Asian individuals from Hellenthal et al.72(henceforth the HellBus dataset).52Following imputation, biallelic SNPs were filtered to be >=5% minor allele frequencywith a r2imputation of value of >=0.9, resulting in a final imputed SNP set of 4,883,514SNPs. 779,577 SNPs overlapped with the autosomal SNPs included in the 1240K captureand were thus used for downstream statistical analyses."

    Page 52 of the Supplementary Text.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If they are, then what does this do to the theory that modern Tuscans show all these signs of a lot of additional "West Asian" from slaves, or, later on, from Byzantines? Was there a modern "Tuscan like" group living somewhere in Pannonia or the northern Balkans, perhaps since the Bronze Age, as there were people who were "modern Tuscan like" in the Iron Age in, was it Thrace?
    There is a linguistic assumption by some scholars that Daco-Thracian certainly came from somewhere to the north much nearer to where Baltic and Slavic (particularly the former) were initially spoken. Assuming that most of Poland, Belarus and North Ukraine were most probably Balto-Slavic-speaking in the Iron Age, Daco-Thracians could realistically have come from north/northwest of the Carpathians, near or even in Pannonia. Of course their "Southern-looking" genetic makeup can have been an artifact of their arrival in the Balkans and eventual heavy admixture with the local peoples, but what if they were already more "Southern European" than "Northern European" in their homeland?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We solved the mistery of the origin of Etruscians.

    They came with Langobards!!!

    (just kidding...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    There is a linguistic assumption by some scholars that Daco-Thracian certainly came from somewhere to the north much nearer to where Baltic and Slavic (particularly the former) were initially spoken. Assuming that most of Poland, Belarus and North Ukraine were most probably Balto-Slavic-speaking in the Iron Age, Daco-Thracians could realistically have come from north/northwest of the Carpathians, near or even in Pannonia. Of course their "Southern-looking" genetic makeup can have been an artifact of their arrival in the Balkans and eventual heavy admixture with the local peoples, but what if they were already more "Southern European" than "Northern European" in their homeland?
    I think it depends on which "Thracians" we're discussing.

    Ages ago, there was a paper that did an analysis on samples from elite graves, and then a sample from a poor grave, who might have been a sacrifice. The samples from the "elite" graves (some from the Bronze Age, but also some from the Iron Age) came out looking "French" and also "British, so basically Western and Northwestern European. The man who was sacrificed was, however, variously "Tuscan" like or "Oetzi" like, but at any rate much more EEF like.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...racian+samples


    That finding was ridiculed, but I wonder if those same samples were retested in Mathiesen et al.

    Might we be seeing something similar in Szabo, i.e. people who didn't really stay and put down roots, and really change the local gene pool? Maybe they passed through after a couple of hundred years, or, even if they stayed, maybe they just didn't change the gene pool because there weren't enough of them.

    Maybe the majority or at least a big chunk of the population remained or became "Tuscan like", i.e. maybe even Mycenaean like originally, changed a bit, maybe 1/4 of them, to become "Tuscan like", although some remained even more southern, only to really change later on with the arrival of the Slavic migrations, which might have been more numerous.

    In Hungary, yesterday's Pannonia, you also have lots of "Germanic" migrations east to change the people even more.

    This is all speculation. We need more samples, and I really should start delving into the Mathiesen samples, but I think it's worth investigating. Those people in Szolad who were not only Tuscan like, but Sicilian like, couldn't have been the odd person descended from Roman soldiers. There was a community of them, and we know about them.

    It's all in this thread:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ht=Lombard+dna

    I still think this statement is valid:
    "I doubt there were any Tuscans in Pannonia, though, so I have a feeling perhaps it's that people pretty similar to modern Tuscans were still living in Pannonia all the way into the post Roman era? Perhaps it's like the fact that Globular Amphora people were pretty close to modern Tuscans, or Spain Chalcolithic? "

    "Tuscan like" genetically means a very "southern" Neolithic like population admixed with perhaps 1/4 to 1/3 more northern elements?

    This is the group we were talking about. Wonomyro brought it to our attention:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture

    @Wonomyro,
    Wash out your mouth with soap! :)

    I'll make a prediction, though: I think their elites might be more "northern" than people expected, going by that one PCA we have. That could still mean they were a mix of some sort, with perhaps some extra southeastern ancestry arriving in the late Bronze Age, to overlay the ruling more northern perhaps more IE like elite. None of that will tell us what average Etruscans were like, however, because they didn't get big grandiose graves.

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    How accurate is this data and whether these are the final results of Y haplotype research for R1b.?

    https://i.imgur.com/bTI5fBo.png

    According to this data in Italia Collegno exist ancestor subclades
    R1b1a2a
    R1b1a2a1a etc..
    and in Hungaria Szólád exist descendants subclades
    R1b1a2a1a1b
    R1b1a2a1a1c etc..
    If this is final then migration goes from Italy to Hungary at least for this peoples ?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It would be strange if ancient northern italians were really so southern genetically considering that in the Bronze Age North Italy was almost a prolongation of the Danube valley (Beaker, Polada, Wieselburg-Gàta in Friuli, Terramare, Canegrate/Golasecca all show influences from the north of the Alps)..not to mention the later Gaulish invasion

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    It would be strange if ancient northern italians were really so southern genetically considering that in the Bronze Age North Italy was almost a prolongation of the Danube valley (Beaker, Polada, Wieselburg-Gàta in Friuli, Terramare, Canegrate/Golasecca all show influences from the north of the Alps)..not to mention the later Gaulish invasion
    Yes, it surprised me too, so I combed through not only the paper, but the supplementary text, and it seems that the authors conducted a rather exhaustive analysis not only of the archaeological context, kinship networks based on genetic analysis, and precise dating of the remains, but a more than exhaustive isotope analysis of each sample. Indeed, as Razib Khan pointed out, the paper is in that way an excellent example of multi-disciplinary analysis. I wouldn't expect anything less of Johannes Krause.

    This is what they concluded:
    ""In contrast, in Collegno it was notable that the five individuals with major southern ancestry are primarily assigned to Italy using PAA, exhibited local strontium signatures. When examining the two major kindred, we observe the striking general pattern that earlier generations had strontium isotope values that diverged from the local range more than later generations (Fig 3D, Figure S15.3). This appears to fit a model of individuals of central/northern European ancestry migrating and settling in Collegno amongst a set of local individuals of primarily Italian origin. "

    Again, in another part of the study:
    ""At Collegno it has been possible to identify first-generation migrants with ‘northern’ ancestry, who were followed by two or three generations of stable settlement. They settled among individuals with high percentages of ‘southern’ ancestry."

    That seems pretty clear, yes?

    To contest the conclusion you would have to be able to show that they're wrong about the isotope analysis, or they compared samples from vastly different dates, etc.

    Now, this doesn't mean that every site in Italy is going to be the same. It means this was the case here.

    Perhaps, as I was speculating above, there was indeed an influx of Indo-European speaking people into Italy. We may find graves in other parts of Italy which are pretty "northern". However, we always have this problem in archaeology, and therefore in genetics, that we usually only find elite graves. The mass of the people weren't buried with that kind of care. This analysis is unique in that they recovered the remains not only of the "elite", but of those who weren't "elite".

    That's also why I mentioned above the disparity between the Thracian remains. It took a long time for these groups to admix thoroughly. Look at the hunter-gatherers and the Neolithic farmers. It took two thousand years.

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    no i'm not contesting their result :) i'm just surprised beacuse i have always believed that Germanic migrations had a negligible impact in Southern Europe

    However more samples, possibly pre-romans, are needed IMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    no i'm not contesting their result :) i'm just surprised beacuse i have always believed that Germanic migrations had a negligible impact in Southern Europe
    I didn't mean you personally. :) I just don't doubt that in certain quarters the conclusions of this study, performed under the aegis of a heavy weight in the field are not particularly welcome, shall we say.

    I didn't think the Barbarian invasions had a negligible effect, but I thought it was minor, maybe ten percent or so, and higher in areas of heavy Lombard settlement, like the Veneto and parts of Lombardia. That's because I was basically using U-106 and I1 as markers to its extent, given it was probably more heavily male, which these burials seem to suggest was the case. I did hold out the possibility it might be more if the Lombards had picked up R1b on their travels.

    Given that we have R1b U-152 among the "Lombards" at Szabo, that is now a possibility:

    Table S9.2
    SZ5 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b CTS1595

    In fact, it's Z36, isn't it?

    Then at Colegio there's this:
    CL49 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a

    Does that seem reasonable to you?

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    According to Razib Khan in his post about this study yesterday, the elite individuals and the low status "southern-shifted" individuals are both groups different from the indigenous individuals of Pannonia. Both groups would've been marked by some very mobile individuals, so they were apparently not locals at all, and Pannonians were neither "northern Europeans" nor "southern Europeans" like the people whose DNA was analyzed. Is that true? Then what were indigenous Pannonians like?

    That, if confirmed, would change our perspectives about this, because those "Italian-like" individuals would also be foreigners accompanying the Lombard tribes/bands as a sort of "caste" with lower status, reduced mixing with the higher status Lombards and its own distinctive genetic profile. But if Lombards came from the north as it seems most probable due to their language affiliatiion, where did those "southern Europeans" get attached and absorbed by the Lombard tribes, even if apparently in a seggregated way? That sounds so strange/unlikely and, I must say, also so detrimental to the apparent Lombard society... As Angela said, this was really a society apparently much less admirable than the Roman way of dealing with assimilated foreigners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I didn't mean you personally. :) I just don't doubt that in certain quarters the conclusions of this study, performed under the aegis of a heavy weight in the field are not particularly welcome, shall we say.

    I didn't think the Barbarian invasions had a negligible effect, but I thought it was minor, maybe ten percent or so, and higher in areas of heavy Lombard settlement, like the Veneto and parts of Lombardia. That's because I was basically using U-106 and I1 as markers to its extent, given it was probably more heavily male, which these burials seem to suggest was the case. I did hold out the possibility it might be more if the Lombards had picked up R1b on their travels.

    Given that we have R1b U-152 among the "Lombards" at Szabo, that is now a possibility:

    Table S9.2
    SZ5 R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b CTS1595

    In fact, it's Z36, isn't it?

    Then at Colegio there's this:
    CL49 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a

    Does that seem reasonable to you?

    This does not exclude that Z36 may have arrived sooner in Italy as well. Z36 seems not to be Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    no i'm not contesting their result :) i'm just surprised beacuse i have always believed that Germanic migrations had a negligible impact in Southern Europe

    However more samples, possibly pre-romans, are needed IMO
    You're repeating my mantra of more samples, please. :)

    It's called preaching to the choir.

    Of course, we'd have to be careful to be cognizant of the fact that elite graves might not present the whole story, yes?

    Plus, didn't I just say this may not be the result everywhere?

    I just don't see how the results of this particular study can be reasonably contested. If someone were to do that, absent some pretty convincing hard evidence, it would suggest some sort of wilful blindness or reacting out of some agenda, perhaps.

    @ PaxAugusta,
    As to Z36, you're absolutely correct that it may have arrived in multiple waves. It's just that in terms of tracking "Germanic" influence in Italy, which turns out to be as much if not more "British" like, as in a combination of "Celtic" and "Germanic", not including some R1b may have led to an underestimation of influence from the Barbarian invasions, at least in the north.

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    For me the results are 100% reliable...no problems, also 6th century AD is not in my area of interest, i prefer prehistory

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    According to Razib Khan in his post about this study yesterday, the elite individuals and the low status "southern-shifted" individuals are both groups different from the indigenous individuals of Pannonia. Both groups would've been marked by some very mobile individuals, so they were apparently not locals at all, and Pannonians were neither "northern Europeans" nor "southern Europeans" like the people whose DNA was analyzed. Is that true? Then what were indigenous Pannonians like?
    That, if confirmed, would change our perspectives about this, because those "Italian-like" individuals would also be foreigners accompanying the Lombard tribes/bands as a sort of "caste" with lower status, reduced mixing with the higher status Lombards and its own distinctive genetic profile. But if Lombards came from the north as it seems most probable due to their language affiliatiion, where did those "southern Europeans" get attached and absorbed by the Lombard tribes, even if apparently in a seggregated way? That sounds so strange/unlikely and, I must say, also so detrimental to the apparent Lombard society... As Angela said, this was really a society apparently much less admirable than the Roman way of dealing with assimilated foreigners.
    history states
    Alboin’s invading army included not only Longobards but Gepids, Bulgars, Sarmatians, Pannonians, Suevi, Noricans, and others 6,10.
    Noricans = illyrians who became celtinized by the early iron age
    Pannonians where always a illyrian/dacian mx
    gepids = sometimes associated with goths
    these are the people that left pannonia after 300 years of settlement to invade ostrogoth italy and take control
    .
    .
    In one chart it plots clearly these individuals and shows who is northern as it shows BAS, IBS and BER ( bergamo ) in blue and the southern shows
    Tus and then TSI and ALB, GRE etc in yellow ..........
    .
    .TUS must mean northern tuscany/ligurians and emilians nad TSI as southern tuscans, romans and central italians.
    .
    As Angela stated previously SZ36 is the most closest to TSI and CL23 sits closest to Bergamo and shifted towards BUL ...........noted in other charts as Hungarian bronze age group
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  24. #49
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interestingly, it seems we were on the right track in attributing some of the "southern" samples in Szabo to the Pannonian Romanized population.

    From the study:

    "Within Szólád we find that adult individuals with both predominantly central/northern and southern genomic ancestry possess similar non-local signatures (Alt et al.13 described this as Range I) (Fig 4). This might suggest that individuals from both ancestry groups immigrated into Szólád together despite the differences in material culture. However, we also note generally a quite diverse non-local range amongst adults with central/northern ancestry (for example SZ4 and SZ16 are extreme outliers), pointing to not all individuals having origins from the same location prior to settling in Szólád."

    "A comparison of ancestry groups with the evidence of mobility at Szólád, aspreviously published in Alt et al.28, shows much greater heterogeneity than at Collegno.Like at Collegno, most children display local isotopic values. However, at Szólád there isa distinct cluster of children with >70% ‘northern’ ancestry who clearly all grew uptogether (identified as Range II in 56), whereas the two children with >70% ‘southern’ancestry (SZ36 and 40) grew up in a different location from them (in Range I). The adultsare highly variable. Individuals with >70% ‘northern’ ancestry have a greater range ofstrontium isotope values than those with >70% ‘southern’ ancestry. The latter group mayhave been local to the Balaton environs, based on bioavailable reference data from theregion, but their strontium isotope values do not overlap with the tight cluster of childrenin ‘range II’."

    Balaton is one of the areas of the Keszthely culture, to which we were alerted on the prior thread by Wonomyro.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture

    There were only a couple of thousand of them left by that time, poor people, so it hardly seems likely that the ones brought with the Lombards to Italy would have had a huge impact, but some, perhaps. The fact that the Lombards were in such a horrible state by the time they arrived, in terms of not only battle injuries but malnutrition, adds to that. The isotope analysis at other sites would tell us.

    It's nice to see that calm and steady and objective analysis of all the variables pays off.

    Something else interesting...

    I wonder if the following indicates perhaps an absorption of some more "Gallic" admixed groups in northern Italy.

    "Similar to Kindred SZ1, Kindred CL1 is predominantly of central/northern European ancestry. However, while genetically quite similar, on average members of this kindred possess slightly less FIN ancestry and are thus more shifted towards northwestern Europe in the PCA, SPA analysis and PAA. In addition, this group is again not genetically homogenous, with the unsampled father of CL87 being of much greater central/northern European ancestry than the mother, CL102, who has an ancestry profile again most consistent with modern day France based on PAA (Figures S13.8). "

    "Kindred CL2 also has a more mixed genetic ancestry based on the ADMIXTURE analysis, containing significant contributions from CEU+GBR, TSI and IBS. This would generally associate individuals in this kindred with a more modern central European ancestry than Kindreds SZ1 and CL1. Interestingly the grave goods of the daughter CL47 and an unsampled adjacent female, CL48, resemble burials from this time in southern France and Switzerland (Supplementary Text S3)."

  25. #50
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    There's a Cypriot like person as well (I assume CYP stands for Cypriot), Im amazed at the diversity of these samples.

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