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Thread: Understanding 6th-Cent Barbarian Social Organization & Migration thru Paleogenomics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Balaton is one of the areas of the Keszthely culture, to which we were alerted on the prior thread by Wonomyro.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture

    There were only a couple of thousand of them left by that time, poor people, so it hardly seems likely that the ones brought with the Lombards to Italy would have had a huge impact, but some, perhaps.
    They were those who didn't go to Italy with Langobards.

    Or perhaps those who were resettled by Avars from the peripheral parts of the Khaganate e. g. Dalmatia, which is also possible.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    For the mentally challenged in the greater population genetics hobby world:

    What the authors did was compare the strontium isotope values of the EARLIEST "more northern" samples with the samples that were "more southern". One might start to think that a lot of people in the hobby either just don't bother to read ALL the parts of the relevant papers, or, like one of our late members, are dyslexic and so can't manage to read and understand more than a sentence at a time. I don't know what to suggest in those cases. There's no special classes where someone could read it to them. Or, perhaps in some cases, it's just deliberate misinformation, propaganda, if you will, like that recently engaged in by the Polish government.

    The reality is that all of this just backfires. The NORDICIST version of history has been killed by science. It's been going on for four years. People are just going to have to deal with it.

    For a reasoned, objective analysis of the other issues read the posts above in the thread.

    My word, anthrogenica is turning into another racist t-roll infested anthrofora. What a pity.

    Why not just pull nonsense out of the air, guys? They can't even stick with things that could be debated by reasonable people, like maybe these were people from other parts of the Italian peninsula who somehow just wound up there. No, THEY WERE JEWS! The poor Jews have to be dragged into everything. It's what's at the bottom of so much of this crap, and particularly in terms of eastern Europe. It's us, the holy, blonde Aryans versus the Jews. Everybody has to be shoe-horned into one group or another. What losers these people are...nothing to be proud of except that.

    I find it very amusing, by the way, that so many young men are afraid to debate me, so they do it "long distance". :) What on earth is happening to men?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I find it very amusing, by the way, that so many young men are afraid to debate me, so they do it "long distance". :) What on earth is happening to men?
    Maybe because they quickly get banned here... (Oooops, another infraction is comming...?)

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Maybe because they quickly get banned here... (Oooops, another infraction is comming...?)
    My dear Wonomyro, just when I was warming up to you out of gratitude for a good contribution to our body of knowledge. :)

    I have never in my life given out infractions for disagreeing with me. I issue infractions for insulting other people, other ethnic groups, for insulting me as well, :), for refusing to stop posting off topic material in certain threads despite repeated warnings, for refusing to comply with rules about which flag you're allowed to post, etc.

    If you get ten infraction points, then fifteen, then twenty, you're banned. Only Maciamo can ban people outright, and has.

    I'm a very adapted person, very rule abiding myself, a great believer in law and order. I have lived by that socially, professionally, and now here.

    I've also issued infractions for profanity laden pms sent to me by young men who when bested in a debate can't resist sending such pms, also with very graphic sexual descriptions and comments, I might add.

    It seems that the ego of very young men nowadays is very quickly "deflated" and shrunken if you get my point, and they feel that this kind of language somehow reasserts their masculinity. Of course, it does the exact opposite. They just don't make men like they used to...

    Not asking for sympathy. In the real world, the idiots who treated me this way lived to "rue the day" as they say. Here, I can only issue infractions, lucky for them.

    Of course, one did resort to threatening me. That was a mistake too. He's being watched.

    Ed. I do reserve the right to give downvotes, although even there I don't give them for just a difference of opinion. I give them for posts that are devoid of actual data support and that moreover reek of agenda. Those don't have anything to do with getting banned, though. Clear?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @Angela

    I don't understand why you target Anthrogenica. I don't agree with them but you are moderator in a forum where the owner of that forum had done things like connecting blondness with Indo-Europeans or wondering if E-V13 should be attributed to 'Libyan slaves' (bicicleur had done that too).

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    It's such an idiotic claim for people to suggest that the Collegno samples are Jews. The y-dna doesn't suggest it, and why wouldn't they be Italian? They resemble some Italians that are in Italy today, from both Tuscany and the south. Only a desperate agenda driven person would suggest something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It's such an idiotic claim for people to suggest that the Collegno samples are Jews. The y-dna doesn't suggest it, and why wouldn't they be Italian? They resemble some Italians that are in Italy today, from both Tuscany and the south. Only a desperate agenda driven person would suggest something like that.
    I know, my guess is that these groups either moved to collegno from other Italian areas or are natives to that area. I also doubt they were Jews or non Italian in general.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I know, my guess is that these groups either moved to collegno from other Italian areas or are natives to that area. I also doubt they were Jews or non Italian in general.
    Your guess? ITS A FACT, and it says it in the paper. They are locals of Collegno .



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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    [
    A. Papadimitriou;533257]@Angela

    I don't understand why you target Anthrogenica. I don't agree with them but you are moderator in a forum where the owner of that forum had done things like connecting blondness with Indo-Europeans or wondering if E-V13 should be attributed to 'Libyan slaves' (bicicleur had done that too)
    To be absolutely clear, so that everyone should be able to understand it: a lot of people have speculated a lot of things when we didn't have dozens of papers on ancient dna. Even then, those speculations weren't pulled out of thin air: they were based on what data we had. They didn't stem from any noxious agenda, either.

    WE NOW HAVE THAT ANCIENT DNA. It doesn't matter. Now things are made up without any factual support at all. If you can't see the difference then you're really not being honest.

    To compare people like Bicicleur and Maciamo, men for whom I have the utmost respect, to the clowns now running around unsupervised at anthrogenica is an insult of the highest order.

    Is that clear enough?

    As for sites other than anthrogenica, I don't frequent racist sites so I don't know what they're saying, and don't care, frankly. Anyone who reads them is a lost cause. Let the FBI and various monitoring agencies deal with them and their members.

    I used to respect anthrogenica, on the other hand, and a lot of their members. I barely see any of those respectable members there any more. Instead, the madmen have taken over the asylum. In the past, people who posted such crap unsupported by any data whatsoever would have been banned outright. Now, either there are no full time moderators, or they're asleep at the wheel, or stormfront, forumbiodiversity, or theapcity types have inadvertently been made moderators. It's too bad.

    Now get back on topic, and, btw, write for yourself, not for people who don't have the guts to say it here themselves.

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    I'm sorry for interjecting, but given the amount of studies recently released when should the Rackigarhi paper be joining them? I've heard rumors it could be released this month, does anyone know when we will finally get our ancient dna from south Asia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Your guess? ITS A FACT, and it says it in the paper. They are locals of Collegno .


    Got it, thank you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Got it, thank you!
    You should read the paper before making assumptions about the content. It will only serve to cause confusion.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Now here's a perfect example of what I mean about agenda driven people posting opinions not only based on no evidence, but posting "supposed" evidence which is, in fact, misinformation for propaganda purposes.

    The genetically "southern" people in Collegno's cemetery not only might be non-Italians, but are non-Italian, and the proof is this:


    "Originally Posted by Principe,

    Collegno was a Roman Trading post, and would have been a Merchant city during Roman times, it makes sense that we would see a variation in population."

    See, there's this slight problem. It wasn't a merchant city from any information I've been able to gather. It was a mansio.

    Mansio is sometimes translated as a post office, but it was more like the buildings erected as way stations for the Pony Express in the American west. They were rest stops for messengers to get fresh horses, and food, and served to house royal officials on imperial business.

    So, no, not a Mecca for Jewish merchants.

    This is from the "Who, me, I'm not a Nordicist!", "I would never try to make all Italians Jews or Lebanese or anything other than Italian", late poster.

    How can people fall for this crap, even nice people like KingJohn?

    Now, does it mean absolutely that 100% of the ancestors of these people had been in Northern Italy for the previous 1000 years? No, it doesn't mean that. We have no way of knowing that, but why would you assume or speculate they're JEWS for God's sake, when they fit within Italian genetic variation.

    We'll see when we finally get more dna if in other areas the people were more "northern" shifted. We would also have to keep in mind, though, that those people might be not yet assimilated Gallic peoples. It takes a long time for people to totally mix even in a relatively proscribed area. I actually don't think it happened in Italy until the Middle Ages were well under way.

    Are most people really not capable of distinguishing agenda driven special pleading, and twisted data from attempts to be fair and balanced in analyzing papers. Can't they at least bother to read the papers?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Your guess? ITS A FACT, and it says it in the paper. They are locals of Collegno .
    It is not a fact yet. Just your wishful thinking.

    (Why did you send me an infraction?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    It is not a fact yet. Just your wishful thinking.

    (Why did you send me an infraction?)
    It's not a fact they were locals? Yes it is, it's in the paper.

    You received an infraction for resisting moderation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    It's not a fact they were locals? It's in the paper.
    We need more papers to be sure.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    You people who want to challenge the findings of the paper that the "southern" samples were locals have to prove that the authors performed the strontium isotope analysis on the samples incorrectly and/or on misdated samples. Good luck with that.

    Otherwise, you're doing nothing but showing that you're not analyzing the paper honestly and objectively.

    By the way, Wonomyro, saying that Croatia is considered a Balkan country by the rest of the world, and might be modeled as "Southern European" was not an insult, and so was no grounds for you to insult me. That infraction was richly deserved, as was the one for refusing to abide by a moderator warning to desist from persistently dragging a thread off topic to discuss your "theories".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    [

    To be absolutely clear, so that everyone should be able to understand it: a lot of people have speculated a lot of things when we didn't have dozens of papers on ancient dna. Even then, those speculations weren't pulled out of thin air: they were based on what data we had. They didn't stem from any noxious agenda, either.

    WE NOW HAVE THAT ANCIENT DNA. It doesn't matter. Now things are made up without any factual support at all. If you can't see the difference then you're really not being honest.

    To compare people like Bicicleur and Maciamo, men for whom I have the utmost respect, to the clowns now running around unsupervised at anthrogenica is an insult of the highest order.

    Is that clear enough?

    As for sites other than anthrogenica, I don't frequent racist sites so I don't know what they're saying, and don't care, frankly. Anyone who reads them is a lost cause. Let the FBI and various monitoring agencies deal with them and their members.

    I used to respect anthrogenica, on the other hand, and a lot of their members. I barely see any of those respectable members there any more. Instead, the madmen have taken over the asylum. In the past, people who posted such crap unsupported by any data whatsoever would have been banned outright. Now, either there are no full time moderators, or they're asleep at the wheel, or stormfront, forumbiodiversity, or theapcity types have inadvertently been made moderators. It's too bad.

    Now get back on topic, and, btw, write for yourself, not for people who don't have the guts to say it here themselves.
    Maciamo is a person who is as racist as it can get and there is nothing scientific about his texts and maps. You have chosen to overlook that but I wasn't born yesterday.

    I noticed that when he understood that the data didn't fit his agendas that well, he started to become less vocal. But your posts that target Anthrogenica or even Davidski serve more as a diversion because some people (maybe people from FBI too) know what has been written here.

    I am the exact opposite of people like Principe and Sikeliot by the way but I don't forget easily. The 'Libyan slaves' is something that I can't forget, for example.

    I won't comment again here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Maciamo is a person who is as racist as it can get and there is nothing scientific about his texts and maps. You have chosen to overlook that but I wasn't born yesterday.

    I noticed that when he understood that the data didn't fit his agendas that well, he started to become less vocal. But your posts that target Anthrogenica or even Davidski serve more as a diversion because some people (maybe people from FBI too) know what has been written here.

    I am the exact opposite of people like Principe and Sikeliot by the way but I don't forget easily. The 'Libyan slaves' is something that I can't forget, for example.

    I won't comment again here.
    If I believed that, I wouldn't be a moderator here. You're not allowed to insult Maciamo, both because it's his site, and because I owe him a great deal, and I believe he doesn't deserve it.

    Some of the things that are said are not meant as insults, Papadimitriou.

    I'm sorry about all of this, because you've provided good information, and I have nothing against you personally.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Angela, the Mathieson quasi-Tuscan northern Thracian (probably) you have in mind is labeled Balkan_IA here. Check out the Northern Italian Beaker samples too. The non-included Sicilian Beaker one looks Early Neolithic with a little Caucasus but no steppe btw, in case you haven't checked out that paper yet.

    In general, it seems that Southern Europe (Iberia_BA -> modern Iberia, NItaly_Beaker -> modern Northern Italy, Balkan_BA_IA-Mycenaean -> modern Balkans and South Italy-Sicily) has moved towards the position that the outlying Yamnaya_Bulgaria occupies, which imo indicates further northern and near eastern influx since the Bronze Age. Check out some of the labeled northern Europe too, quite a bit of change there as well towards more southern and western directions.

    It'll be interesting to see what the genomes from this paper are like, since their analysis doesn't clear everything up, including the fact they the didn't bother to include some sort of Iran_N source and kept to the usual WHG-EEF-steppe trichotomy in their ADMIXTURE analysis, even though we know that at least the Aegean (so likely much of Italy down the line too) already had a good amount of it in the Bronze-Iron Age.

    It's certainly interesting that genetics often agrees with traditional accounts of migration which is what this paper is more about than more personal amateur desires, anyway...

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    It just keeps getting better.

    Now that I've showed that there was deliberate misinformation being pedaled, and that Collegno was not a trading city with perhaps lots of people from other parts of the world, including Jews, but a mansio or inn and post office for imperial officials, the story has now changed. Wait for it...it's great!

    "Jews from the area around Milano, 141 kilometers away, during a time of constant warfare, where there was supposedly a large community of them(except for the fact that Mediolanum had been attacked and destroyed numerous times during the Barbarian Invasions, last destroyed by the Goths, and there was no "city" of any kind there for Jews or anyone else) took a trip and rested at this particular way station. Maybe one of them, who, if we could just analyze the sample some more, might have carried a "Jewish" subclade of E-V13 (which Jewish sub-clade, Ashkenazi in origin, didn't rise to prominence for another 400 years when the Ashkenazi population was created in the Rheinland through a bottleneck), was overtaken by the beauty of the local girls and decided to stay and voila! Oh, and the other two samples? Maybe, if they just analyzed their y lines more, we would discover some hitherto unknown "Jewish" clades?

    This is what passes for reasoned analysis in some places.

    Oh, and go ahead, Azzurro, down vote it, like you have dozens and dozens of my posts. I DON'T CARE. You're the one who writes these "masterpieces", not me. That's all anyone needs to know.


    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegno

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansio

    Ed. Milano:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan
    Last edited by Angela; 23-02-18 at 15:58.

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    Country: Croatia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    By the way, Wonomyro, saying that Croatia is considered a Balkan country by the rest of the world
    That’s the remain of the colonial discourse. People in Slovenia and Croatia don’t like that term for many reasons, and that is the fact. You may respect that or not - It’s your choice. Now when you know it you can’t play on ignorance.

    "European colonizers tended to construct the identities of colonized peoples and lands as other: undeveloped, primitive, and immature; as homogeneous objects, rather than sources of knowledge; see Anand (2007) New Polit. Sci. 29, 1 on Western colonial representations of the (non-Western) other."

    http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/...10803095625148

    Sounds familiar?

    However, Croatians call their country a (partly) Mediterranean one, which is true. (And you blame us for racism against "EEF" people...what a nonsense...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    , and might be modelled as "Southern European"
    It might be modelled whatever you like but this is what happens:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...erland_Croatia

    Please, take a look at the PCA and tell me in which cluster do you see Croatian samples (CRO)? They were supposed to belong to “southern Europe” by the authors, therefore the letters have same colour (blue) as the rest of the SE countries, but obviously showed up somewhere else, and that makes them easily observable.

    All papers I’ve seen show more or less the same or similar arrangement. That is the fact.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    "Originally Posted by Principe,

    Collegno was a Roman Trading post, and would have been a Merchant city during Roman times, it makes sense that we would see a variation in population."


    See, there's this slight problem. It wasn't a merchant city from any information I've been able to gather. It was a mansio.


    Wow, that’s an incredibly ignorant assumption for Azzurro to make. Not only does he not understand genetics, he can’t even get his translation for the Latin words right to fit into his bogus agenda driven theories! It’s no wonder places like anthrogenica are a dump; they allow this kind of nonsense to be written on their boards. It’s a good thing people like that are eventually ejected from this forum.

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