Beaker phenomenon and the genomic transformation of northwest Europe

Cato (it's not me who gave you a 'thumb down') it seems to me this Sicilian BB is shifted towards something Late 'anatolians' (old EF + kind of Iran) rather than towards pure 'levant'; and before those times I think the new (Chalco) mix of Eastern Mediterranean had not reached Sicily in big masses; Could this make a link with Cyprus or rather with South-East Europe of the time?
From what i know Copper Age Sicily was already under "Eastern Meditearranean influences" (Anatolia or Cyprus, probably the same peoples detected by the Kılınç et al. study that replaced EEF there), but also the rest of Italy with the Rinaldone, Gaudo, Laterza culture.

Btw i have checked the Excel file, there are no Y-DNA for Sicily only mtDNA, i dont know the origin of these maternal lines so i can't say if "my theory" is true (Beaker father - Indigenous mother or grandmother). Another explanation could be that the Beakers acquired the extra CHG in Sardinia (i remember reading a post on the Eurogenes Blog "Sardinia pack a lot of CHG" or something like that), since Sicilian Beaker came from there and not from the peninsula
 
Still need to check Y HG subclades more closely

Some initial thoughts:

Origin of BB in Portugal is interesting and suggests maritime trade origin leading to the mature phenomenon.

This looks to me simply like the first consistent long range trade networks in Europe. This is all we're seeing. I do think that it rests on Horse aided travel and Bronze/copper, which is why it heavily involves steppe cultures.

Origin of BB in Portugal is hard to buy outright though. BBs are so very similar to Corded Wares, and this really needs to be addressed. Even Eneolithic steppe pottery from the Ukraine looks like Bell Beaker (and corded ware obviously). This combined with the clear correlation with Steppe and R1b-P312 in Central and North West Europe makes it hard not to ascribe some sort of overriding significance.

I do enjoy critical thinking, but this hatred and denial of a steppe origin of the modern day Y HGs in West Europe is growing tiresome. The evidence supporting a steppe or NE Europe origin from the mesolithic is pretty darn heavy. It's almost like denying that cigarettes cause lung cancer at this point. But you still can, and I can appreciate that.

We have no R1b-M269 in Iberia immediately preceeding Bell Beaker, then all of a sudden you're loaded with R1b-P312 (among some other clades) in BB graves in Iberia and everywhere else in Europe. Hmm. We did have the M269 in El Trocs, and fine you can stand on that, but C'mon. This is like using the Kura Axes R1b alone to completely deny a steppe lauch point for IE in West Asia.


Below is an Eneolithic Steppe ware (Sredy Stog). Recall that I've always assigned PIE to latter Sredny Stog layers predating Yamnaya by at least 500 years, which also yield the first sample with a Corded Ware Genotype.

Ap4tP5Y.jpg


Below is typical Yamnaya pot

iMGA0X5.jpg


Below are some Corded Wares

U1GdfMv.jpg


Below are some Bell Beakers - I realize there is some variation, but the images below capture the range pretty well
8aSGjk1.jpg

oQh48by.jpg


Below are a couple Cardial Pots
vK37koX.jpg

S99zaYL.png

And here are some Iberian Neolithic pots
ROkTSlQ.jpg


c7L5IDa.jpg


Now tell me with a straight face that you believe the BB phenomenon had a single and unique origin in Portugal, and that modern day R1b in West Europe came from Neolithic Iberia.

It's possible, but highly unlikely at this juncture.
 
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For Iberia they have found 3 R1b more, being L51+, unfortunately they are attached to Ciempozuelos regional style pots so they are not members of the first BB wave. They even have steppe admixture, but as Portguese BA R1b and Catalan R1b BB don't have such admixture it will be necessary to check up if it came by "importation" of CWC females or just by a pan-European exchange network.

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@Berun,
a.Those Portuguese BA R1b -P312 do not have steppe. How would they have diluted Steppe ancestry so fast? - Arriving “steppe” R1bs to Portugal then it would have been (especially south Portugal) by very late last quarter 3rd millennia. – How come 1800bc Portuguese BA R1b-P312 has no Steppe admix?

b. Today Portugal (special the region of original BB) has the highest R1b percentage that are M269 (xP312) in all Iberia. To find something similar one needs to go to Britany or northern France. What migration of R1b from steppe would arrive to the further western part of Europe (Portugal) with M269 (xp312) when all beakers supposedly “bringing it” are P312?

c. In a Region (Iberia) noticeable for being dominated by DF27 (TRMC 2400bc) it’s also odd that the son of DF27, Z195 (basically same TRMC as DF27 – so DF27 new is “Son”) is almost non existant in Portugal. – Just to be clear : Spanish people (all) are Z195 (“the son”) but Portuguese R1b are not Z195. At all.

Something is fishy.


a.Those Portuguese BA R1b -P312 do not have steppe. How would they have diluted Steppe ancestry so fast? - Arriving “steppe” R1bs to Portugal then it would have been (especially south Portugal) by very late last quarter 3rd millennia. – How come 1800bc Portuguese BA R1b-P312 has no Steppe admix?

Well, there's like over 40 generations to reduce it to invisible. Plenty. Look at R1b-M269 in Eastern Canada, unless you actually believe in the Solutrean hypothesis. You had a very similar situation where a bunch of high status (or otherwise powerful) guys showed up with the Hudson Bay Company to trade. Now 300 years layer we have a very high percentage of R1b-M269 in the native American population with little to no Steppe.


Today Portugal (special the region of original BB) has the highest R1b percentage that are M269 (xP312) in all Iberia. To find something similar one needs to go to Britany or northern France. What migration of R1b from steppe would arrive to the further western part of Europe (Portugal) with M269 (xp312) when all beakers supposedly “bringing it” are P312?


No one is saying "All Beakers" are bringing anything but beakers.


In a Region (Iberia) noticeable for being dominated by DF27 (TRMC 2400bc) it’s also odd that the son of DF27, Z195 (basically same TRMC as DF27 – so DF27 new is “Son”) is almost non existant in Portugal. – Just to be clear : Spanish people (all) are Z195 (“the son”) but Portuguese R1b are not Z195. At all.


So you're trying to say that because men in Iberia, in 2018, are predominately a descendant of DF27, whereas men in Portugal, In 2018 mind you, are predominantly DF27, that this strongly suggests that DF27 originated in Portugal? OK


Something is fishy


no
 
holderlin, you don't try to see the deept of the case, you just look A and Z and you guess you have an abecedary. So, which date have the CWC pots?
The same goes with the case of Basques high in R1b (along no-IE Iberian, Aquitanian, Tartessian), or the fact that BB R1b DECREASE steppe in ancient CWC areas, so that BB IMPOSSIBLE to come from CWC and much less from steppe. By the way I would wait a L51 roaming there at least. Come on, how the hell you can expand an Iberian culture in half Europe without any genetic trace, by BB TV?
 
holderlin, you don't try to see the deept of the case, you just look A and Z and you guess you have an abecedary. So, which date have the CWC pots?
The same goes with the case of Basques high in R1b (along no-IE Iberian, Aquitanian, Tartessian), or the fact that BB R1b DECREASE steppe in ancient CWC areas, so that BB IMPOSSIBLE to come from CWC and much less from steppe. By the way I would wait a L51 roaming there at least. Come on, how the hell you can expand an Iberian culture in half Europe without any genetic trace, by BB TV?

I forgot what the argument is really.

I think that the pots themselves had multiple influences, and I don't think the Central European BB came from CWC. I think they came from Ukraine and began gradually expanding West even before Yamnaya. They were contemporaneous with CWC before overtaking them in some parts, and when this happened I'm not surprised that they had less steppe by that time. They had been mixing for awhile.

I do think the big picture overshadows the exceptions that you highlight.

We have no steppe in pre-BB Western Europe, then we have BBs, steppe, and R1b-P312 all over the place. Yes there are some inconsistencies with this broad picture, but I don't think it's enough to challenge it. Why would hiding R1b-P312 suddenly and randomly explode with BBs in Iberia with no relation to the R1b-P312 in Central Europe that is also bringing BBs?
 
I forgot what the argument is really.

I think that the pots themselves had multiple influences, and I don't think the Central European BB came from CWC. I think they came from Ukraine and began gradually expanding West even before Yamnaya. They were contemporaneous with CWC before overtaking them in some parts, and when this happened I'm not surprised that they had less steppe by that time. They had been mixing for awhile.

I do think the big picture overshadows the exceptions that you highlight.

We have no steppe in pre-BB Western Europe, then we have BBs, steppe, and R1b-P312 all over the place. Yes there are some inconsistencies with this broad picture, but I don't think it's enough to challenge it. Why would hiding R1b-P312 suddenly and randomly explode with BBs in Iberia with no relation to the R1b-P312 in Central Europe that is also bringing BBs?

if you sample hundreds of central european/british bell beakers, most late in BB culture chronology, sample a handfull of late Iberian BB in places outside the original route of BB dating (madrid, Barcelona).... then add a couple lowlifes, have beens, dumped in caves, in portugal and called them BB...and what will you have? what is the name for it?

everybody knows the following if one wants to figure who original Bell beakers where - everything still i first half 3rd milenia:
a. sample Huts near leceia in Oeiras portugal (oldest bell beaker people) -- in 3 hundred years never mixed (pottery) with neighbors 500 meter away
b, Sample where oldest and most vast bell beakers is found, in Zambujal.
c. My opinion... sample first VNSP and surroundings, even before Bell beakers appear but where the copos people lived.
d. Sample oldest Galizia and north spain BB places (the exit route).

Then we will see.
 
Such steppe BB in Spain are late as to suggest that such component arrived with the corded variant of BB pots, but if I recall well, corded BB pots were found in Portugal dating by 2800 or so.

Again you get an abecedary with A and Z but you don't look at the details, making a combo steppe / R1b is not straighforward here, take firts into account those Iberian R1b without it.

Moreover you need to imagine a sort of unatested migration to make real such combo, so unconsciously you are loading the charge of evidence to accept such combo.

Well, a year ago I gave a lot of red alarms about an steppe Urheimat for IE, and now everybody has clear that there was a real danger. The BB case is even more evident, it shows even more inconsistencies.
 
The correlation between R1b and Bell Beaker is stunning...i wonder what were other I, G, J, E men doing at that time?? How is possible that they didn't partecipate in this expansions?

BB must have been a really closed sect of drunk archers
 
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From what i know Copper Age Sicily was already under "Eastern Meditearranean influences" (Anatolia or Cyprus, probably the same peoples detected by the Kılınç et al. study that replaced EEF there), but also the rest of Italy with the Rinaldone, Gaudo, Laterza culture.

Btw i have checked the Excel file, there are no Y-DNA for Sicily only mtDNA, i dont know the origin of these maternal lines so i can't say if "my theory" is true (Beaker father - Indigenous mother or grandmother). Another explanation could be that the Beakers acquired the extra CHG in Sardinia (i remember reading a post on the Eurogenes Blog "Sardinia pack a lot of CHG" or something like that), since Sicilian Beaker came from there and not from the peninsula

I wrote "before those times"(Chalco in West, I think did not go back too soon before the 3000BC, unlike East where it was present earlier). My thought was that first Southwestern BB's could have passed along Mediterranea shores before to settle in South Portugal. They could have been some basic SNP's of Y-R1b too, but very washed their genomes by local matings on the way.
&: Otherwise, concerning R1b, I think since some time now that L51 formed in eastern Europe and send tiny groups through South and more fleshy groups through Central and maybe Northern Europe where they had more chances to prosperate and create new SNP's down L11 (U106 North, and P312 Central, before L21, U152 and DF27); I cannot say to date if P312 came directly through South or already represents a Central European introgression in Iberia (perhaps I missed some anDNA?) I'll try to chack this.
 
We have only been looking for DF27 since the summer of 2012. Before that, for about a year, we were looking for Z196. [More recently replaced by the equivalent Z195, which is easier to test with a chip.] And before that, it was just P312* (not U152, not L21, what the heck can it be?).

DF27 is hard to test, especially with one pass in one direction, so it doesn't show up in most chip tests. And even with NextGen sequencing, it can only be teased out of the BAM file with some luck. Deteriorated aDNA samples make that problem considerably worse. However: since 2012 it has become increasingly apparent that most of the old P312* (not U152, not L21) in western Europe was turning out to be DF27 -- though probably less than half of it will be Z195+. (And certainly there are other possibilities -- L238, DF99 and so on.)

Anyway, there are 25 samples in the new paper that qualify as P312* by the early 2011 standard (not U152, not L21). One of them (I0806, from present Quedlinburg, Germany) has previously been tagged as DF27+, and the upstream ZZ11+. Here's the whole list:

I2566
I5382
I1382
I1389
I1390
I0806
I3599
I4132
I5665
I2478
I4068
I4069
I4073
I4074
I5748
I5750
I7202
I2421
I2602
I5441
I7630
I2567
I2569
I5516
I5359

I expect that many of them were DF27+. Whether our BAM file wizards (Rich Rocca, Alex Williamson and others) are able to force them to admit it remains to be seen. Anyway, the embargo on those files has been lifted, and over the next few weeks a much closer look will be taken. So, stay tuned.
 
@Razyn
hey, getting this samples with place and dates would really be interesting... do you know if any supplement has it like that?
 
@Berun,
a.Those Portuguese BA R1b -P312 do not have steppe. How would they have diluted Steppe ancestry so fast? - Arriving “steppe” R1bs to Portugal then it would have been (especially south Portugal) by very late last quarter 3rd millennia. – How come 1800bc Portuguese BA R1b-P312 has no Steppe admix?.

I don't know why you assume those who brought R1b-P312 were still "steppic" tribes. That their ancestors came from the steppe is an entirely different matter. There is some evidence of out-of-steppe migration towards the west (the core of Central Europe) as early as 3,000 BC and the interaction with pre-IE non-steppe cultures in the Balkans dates to even earlier than that. For R1b-M269 to have been spread by steppe tribes we don't need to find individuals rich in steppe admixture in all places, especially when, as you say, their arrival to Iberia may have been as late as 2,200-2,000 BC and probably only expanded strongly there after 2,000 BC. In 1,000 years of migrations to lands that were already quite well peopled many things could've happened, mostly involving high degree of intermixing.

In fact, even Corded Ware people who migrated to lands that were certainly miuch less densely settled and less EEF-rich had at least some 25% of non-steppe admixture. To those coming from a more southern source in Central Europe I'd think that as much as 50% of non-steppe was likely (do we have evidences for that before Bell Beaker proper, by the way?). Until they arrived in Iberia, they'd then have passed through Western Europe, mainly France, but unfortunately (why is that so???) we don't seem to have a very good understanding of French genetic makeup in the early-mid Bronze Age.

More admixture must've ensued even before migrating into Spain (e.g. 1/3 50% steppe-like people + 2/3 0% steppe-like people >>> 17% steppe admixture), and then arriving in Iberia they have more 300-400 years of admixture with locals that apparently were very numerous because they are still very dominant in the genetic ancestry of Iberians, even after later and documented IE-speaking migrations from the east, like that of Celts, Romans, Germans and Alans. (Maintaining the same example, those men with 17% steppe admixture - 1/4 steppe-carrying people + 3/4 non-steppe-carrying people >>> merely 4% in average!).

I don't think that 1 R1b-carrying man without steppe ancestry is enough to deny all the other evidences. If we find a consistent and numerous pattern of R1b-M269 without any steppe admixture then yes, we'll have to reconsider everything.
 
holderlin, you don't try to see the deept of the case, you just look A and Z and you guess you have an abecedary. So, which date have the CWC pots?
The same goes with the case of Basques high in R1b (along no-IE Iberian, Aquitanian, Tartessian), or the fact that BB R1b DECREASE steppe in ancient CWC areas, so that BB IMPOSSIBLE to come from CWC and much less from steppe

Impossible? Through what logic? Bell Beakers definitely are a local cultural phenomenon, but that still says nothing about PART of their ancestrality and the distant origin of their language. The fact that R1b decrease steppe in ancient CWC areas objectively tell us just one thing and nothing else: CWC had more steppe ancestry than Bell Beakers. Period. Nothing else can be asserted, much less that Bell Beaker populations (not necessarily all of them) may have had profound ancestral links with migrating tribes originally from the steppe. Admixtures don't come and go in definite and closed blocks, they mix throughout the centuries especially if your particular admixture is the newcomer to an area already heavily populated by other admixtures. If earlier Central European Bell Beakers had e.g. 40% steppe admixture, that would make them decrease the former CWC admixture in the areas where they expanded, but still that does not mean they don't have steppe roots.
 
Ygorcs, if BB appear amidst CWC it was by war and by looting or exchanging females stealt or got also an extra steppe component (BB puts an end to CWC and R1a males), or the CWC said to BB come on to our lands and share your beer with us, getting then females with steppe after the fun. The case is that first BB had zero or much less steppe admixture, so coming directly from steppe is not a possibility. Now you MUST provide a culture and genetic trail for pre-BB people outside such areas.
 
"There was a view that migration is a very rare process in human evolution,” said the study’s leader, Dr David Reich, a researcher at Harvard Medical School who specialises in genetics and human history The new analysis suggested this could not be further from the truth, he added.“The orthodoxy – the assumption that present-day people are directly descended from the people who always lived in that same area – is wrong almost everywhere,” he said. The research contradicts widely held assumptions about European countries’ supposedly “indigenous” populations, claims frequently used by a growing number of prominent populist politicians across the continent to justify anti-immigration policies.Two papers authored by large, multidisciplinary teams spanning dozens of international institutions unravelled the genetic history of the ancient inhabitants of north-west and south-eastern Europe.
Thank you for sharing David Reich articles and stories. The choice of where to turn can be modified when your surrounded by threads.Sometimes the brain stops working primarily when it finds itself overloaded. The choice of studying, researching, and adding to a conversation can make the simplest idea a tome of transparency. I'm sure that the process of the seacrh is one of those reasons to be alive.
 
I don't know why you assume those who brought R1b-P312 were still "steppic" tribes. That their ancestors came from the steppe is an entirely different matter. There is some evidence of out-of-steppe migration towards the west (the core of Central Europe) as early as 3,000 BC and the interaction with pre-IE non-steppe cultures in the Balkans dates to even earlier than that. For R1b-M269 to have been spread by steppe tribes we don't need to find individuals rich in steppe admixture in all places, especially when, as you say, their arrival to Iberia may have been as late as 2,200-2,000 BC and probably only expanded strongly there after 2,000 BC. In 1,000 years of migrations to lands that were already quite well peopled many things could've happened, mostly involving high degree of intermixing.

In fact, even Corded Ware people who migrated to lands that were certainly miuch less densely settled and less EEF-rich had at least some 25% of non-steppe admixture. To those coming from a more southern source in Central Europe I'd think that as much as 50% of non-steppe was likely (do we have evidences for that before Bell Beaker proper, by the way?). Until they arrived in Iberia, they'd then have passed through Western Europe, mainly France, but unfortunately (why is that so???) we don't seem to have a very good understanding of French genetic makeup in the early-mid Bronze Age.

More admixture must've ensued even before migrating into Spain (e.g. 1/3 50% steppe-like people + 2/3 0% steppe-like people >>> 17% steppe admixture), and then arriving in Iberia they have more 300-400 years of admixture with locals that apparently were very numerous because they are still very dominant in the genetic ancestry of Iberians, even after later and documented IE-speaking migrations from the east, like that of Celts, Romans, Germans and Alans. (Maintaining the same example, those men with 17% steppe admixture - 1/4 steppe-carrying people + 3/4 non-steppe-carrying people >>> merely 4% in average!).

I don't think that 1 R1b-carrying man without steppe ancestry is enough to deny all the other evidences. If we find a consistent and numerous pattern of R1b-M269 without any steppe admixture then yes, we'll have to reconsider everything.

So much could be said... Even that than lets shut this, and others, forum down because all this narratives portraying ancient genomics are just dumb. Everyone can be from every where. Lets just wait for hundreds of thousands adna and...

However let me just say this. There is a steppe sample, I5884, 2700bc in steppe, that is not only r1b.M269 but r1b z2103...without any, any, steppe admix.
Yes, 2015 onwards popular narratives are becoming very very frail...
 

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