Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 83

Thread: Beaker phenomenon and the genomic transformation of northwest Europe

  1. #51
    Elite member holderlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-12-14
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    770


    Country: USA - Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Yes, i meant the first domesticated horses in Italy.

    If i remember correctly apart from Central Europe, horses were tamed even in Copper age Spain or Portugal


    utilizzando Tapatalk
    Maybe there was a random ancient connection with Iberians and IEs? This would help explain the entire BB phenomenon. Stranger things have happened.

    What if Iberians sailed into the Black Sea?

    OK I like this theory. I'm going with it just to annoy people. Get ready.

  2. #52
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    449


    Country: Italy



    Who knows? In the chalcolithic settlement of Zambujal in Portugal there are some remains of horses, however their number increase suddently with the Bell Beaker..

    utilizzando Tapatalk

  3. #53
    Moderator
    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    2,253


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Ygorcs, if BB appear amidst CWC it was by war and by looting or exchanging females stealt or got also an extra steppe component (BB puts an end to CWC and R1a males), or the CWC said to BB come on to our lands and share your beer with us, getting then females with steppe after the fun. The case is that first BB had zero or much less steppe admixture, so coming directly from steppe is not a possibility. Now you MUST provide a culture and genetic trail for pre-BB people outside such areas.
    You have no such evidence that all the first BB groups had zero or much less steppe admixture. Those who spread steppe admixture were Central European BBs. You apparently think about this issue as if BB and CWC were solid modern nation-states that have a definite identity and an organized and closed ethnic community. That was of course nonexistant in the early Bronze Age. BB was evidently a continental and multicentered phenomenon. I wouldn't expect genetic homogeneity from such a culture especially in the era much before easy long distance travel. The first Bell Beakers may have lacked steppe ancestry for the simple and perfectly plausible reason that they did not have the same ancestral roots nor even the same language as those that eventually expanded a lot from Central Europe. Many devices and aesthetic patterns of Western culture were rapidly adopted by 127 million Japanese people without almost any genetic influx.

    In the case of the Central European Bell Beakers, given that they were already very mixed with EEF we can even imagine that that cultural change could even have involved some genetic introgression, even if not directly from the first BBs, but from later assimilated people carrying the same culture elsewhere.

    Also, honestly, we must all remind that CWC was only superseded by BB in a few places. It is not like CWC ceased to exist and BB occupied its entire territory. Actually, the diffusion of BB people was clearly very concentrated to the west of most CWC territories, overlapping with them and replacing them in just a few areas.

    For Central European BBs to have steppe admixture they did not have to come from any CWC group. There were other routes of steppe expansion from the southeast and east, instead of the northeast, and Baden culture, among others, demonstrate that.

  4. #54
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-10-16
    Posts
    274


    Ethnic group
    Ibrico
    Country: Spain



    If the bell-shaped phenomenon has its origin in Portugal, which is what sustains science, the hardest thing to believe is that it expanded to the center of Europe and beyond as a kind of fashion, without the intervention of people, since the phenomenon or whatever you want to call it, they were not only ceramic pieces, they were also a way of burying people that imply questions of deep beliefs and religious values, this is difficult to expand as a fashion.


    Therefore, the most likely hypothesis would be:


    Expansion of the phenomenon from Portugal to the rest of Europe and North Africa, by individuals mixing WHG and EEF without steppe, it is not known yet if these individuals were R1b or not and they spoke an Indo-European or Basque or Iberian language, time will tell, mix of these individuals with people from the steppe in central Europe and later expansion of this mixture to the rest of Europe including a reflux towards the Iberian peninsula.

  5. #55
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,228


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    If the bell-shaped phenomenon has its origin in Portugal, which is what sustains science, the hardest thing to believe is that it expanded to the center of Europe and beyond as a kind of fashion, without the intervention of people, since the phenomenon or whatever you want to call it, they were not only ceramic pieces, they were also a way of burying people that imply questions of deep beliefs and religious values, this is difficult to expand as a fashion.


    Therefore, the most likely hypothesis would be:


    Expansion of the phenomenon from Portugal to the rest of Europe and North Africa, by individuals mixing WHG and EEF without steppe, it is not known yet if these individuals were R1b or not and spoke an Indo-European or Basque language, time will tell, a mixture of these individuals with people from the steppe in central Europe and later expansion of this mixture to the rest of Europe including a reflux to the Iberian peninsula.
    Spencer Wells did author a paper on ancient mtDna which saw a movement of women from the direction of Iberia to Central Europe. I thought at the time perhaps it was some sort of bride exchange.

    Maybe someone has a link in their files?

    I don't know remember if Olalde et al addressed that. I have to read the official paper and the Mathiesen et al one as well.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  6. #56
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    449


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    The only indubitably steppic aspect of the Bell Beaker culture are the single burials, but in many areas they still used collective burials, often hypogeum tombs.

    ...and domesticated horses, probably

    utilizzando Tapatalk

  7. #57
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    528


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Who knows? In the chalcolithic settlement of Zambujal in Portugal there are some remains of horses, however their number increase suddently with the Bell Beaker..

    utilizzando Tapatalk
    Earlier (3200 BC) Porto Carretas (or one of the other 3 blocking Guadiana River passage) already had horses. and if I remember corretly in some papers is even mentioned that by age of death, those would have be used for "soldering not food".

    .... and lets not forget the recent find in Leceia of Equus asinus, donkey from north Africa. Thats in chalcolithic. well over a thousand years before anyone thought it had happen. And one does not bring "wild" animal from a different continent.

    last update:
    In Perdigoes, late neolithic, chalcolithic and bell beaker period, there are vast "falanges" made of horse tibiae (long bone). but much more or cervids (deer). With a difference. Cervids one finds the carcass remains but not with horses. horses one just finds the "phalange". so horses not pure game.
    Last edited by Olympus Mons; 25-02-18 at 00:16.

  8. #58
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    528


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    so the case that evens such R1b line was not from the steppe was right, when someone finds it in Kura-Araxes is what logics point out, even so some die-hard steppists said the Caucasian R1b was roaming almost lost there.
    Berun.... its not kura araxes! the key is before them. Shulaveri -Shomu (6000bc-4900bc)!!! :)

    Any way another one. Italy bell beaker in Parma full r1b -312. best fit is:
    over 50% southwest Iberian CA and 30% Yamnaya Kalmykia

    Hence a male eatern bell beaker, getting a Portuguese woman in north Italy! ... Jesus!
    Last edited by Olympus Mons; 24-02-18 at 23:23.

  9. #59
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    528


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    If the bell-shaped phenomenon has its origin in Portugal, ....the most likely hypothesis would be:


    Expansion of the phenomenon from Portugal to the rest of Europe and North Africa, by individuals mixing WHG and EEF without steppe, it is not known yet if these individuals were R1b or not and they spoke an Indo-European or Basque or Iberian language, time will tell, mix of these individuals with people from the steppe in central Europe and later expansion of this mixture to the rest of Europe including a reflux towards the Iberian peninsula.
    This what is being challenge. And it does not matter that one tries to warn that:
    No, they do not have Bell beakers from Portugal ( reich states that they do, wrong). They have people from the region of bell beakers but basicly the ones "thrown" into caves not realy Bell beakers.
    Or bring their attention to the fact that Bell beakers, even the oldest ones ever radiocarbon, the ones at the footsteps of Leceia fortress, lived for hundreds of years in the same 500 meters with no bell beaker people and never mixed. So its THAT people that needs to be sampled.
    That the first wave out of Portugal would have left via Galiza and north spain by something before 2500bc.... and later bell beakers in Iberia where more "Evolved" and reflux. Actually even olalde speaks about "contrary to mtdna data and non metric dental traits". So they know that Mtdna and Nmdental clearly show exit out of iberia... and have been stating for long that the exogamy in central Europe group changed their nmdental characteristics.

  10. #60
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,913

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    You have no such evidence that all the first BB groups had zero or much less steppe admixture. Those who spread steppe admixture were Central European BBs. You apparently think about this issue as if BB and CWC were solid modern nation-states that have a definite identity and an organized and closed ethnic community. That was of course nonexistant in the early Bronze Age. BB was evidently a continental and multicentered phenomenon. I wouldn't expect genetic homogeneity from such a culture especially in the era much before easy long distance travel. The first Bell Beakers may have lacked steppe ancestry for the simple and perfectly plausible reason that they did not have the same ancestral roots nor even the same language as those that eventually expanded a lot from Central Europe. Many devices and aesthetic patterns of Western culture were rapidly adopted by 127 million Japanese people without almost any genetic influx.

    In the case of the Central European Bell Beakers, given that they were already very mixed with EEF we can even imagine that that cultural change could even have involved some genetic introgression, even if not directly from the first BBs, but from later assimilated people carrying the same culture elsewhere.

    Also, honestly, we must all remind that CWC was only superseded by BB in a few places. It is not like CWC ceased to exist and BB occupied its entire territory. Actually, the diffusion of BB people was clearly very concentrated to the west of most CWC territories, overlapping with them and replacing them in just a few areas.

    For Central European BBs to have steppe admixture they did not have to come from any CWC group. There were other routes of steppe expansion from the southeast and east, instead of the northeast, and Baden culture, among others, demonstrate that.
    some good points which in some way agree with Angela posts. At this stage, even if it despites me, we still know little about the very reality of BB phenomenon. I keep on interested in the 'dinaric' types (rather a Center-South-East Europe aspect) which seems having been a between all/spreading element just after the beginning of BB "birth" in Portugal, maybe matured there from other places (marked by its pottery aspect and after by some other artefacts) and which {the physical type}was found as well on Middle-North Atlantic shores regions than in Rhône-Rhine regions and also in Central Europe before to dilute by time (it was still well present among Round Barrows people of the 2200/2000 BC in S-W England, and even denser in some Ireland and Scotland places of Food vessel);
    I'm even not sure the Y-R1b haplo could be tightly linked to first BBs. We see L21 already well present among British BBs, and U152 among Bavarian BBs, maybe DF 27 if DNA would have been studied deeper or in a better state, what doesn' check a quick spreading of the BB cultural aspect in Western Europe (300 years at the most, say between 2500 and 2200 BC?) which would have supposed a relatively more homogenous geographical distribution even if variated.
    MY IMPRESSION (how to be strongly affirmative?) is that some groups, not by force R1b, propagated quickly enough this cultural aspect (limited to elites?) which was adopted by already well settled groups or regional groups of these groups dominated by Y-R1b, cousins one to another for the most but already diffenciated since around 3000 BC.

  11. #61
    Elite member
    Join Date
    23-02-15
    Location
    Groningen
    Posts
    1,149

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b/ E-V22

    Ethnic group
    North Sea Germanic
    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Beaker phenomenon and the genomic transformation of northwest Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    seen from far it seems that archeologically first BBs (Portugal) passed their knowledge or their package has been adopted by foreign elites of Central Europe origin (at a point at least); so it could confirm some archeologists hypthesis; BTW the "mixed" BB's are in central-northern Spain and southeastern France: hazard? - the more "North-East" position of british BBs is not so strange because we know the first beakers of South-West Britain showed physically an input of the northern element in CWC + an input of a kind of HG's ('borrebylike'), apparently picked in northern Germany (see JC Coon and H. Hubert).
    The question of Y-R1b seems to me confirming a two ways penetration of R1b in Europe westwards, a Mediterranean one and a Danube or/and South Baltic one. But can we be sure we can attach these southern Y-R1b to first BB's pottery???
    Exactly Moesan, with the help of David of Eurogenes news Global 25 can be shown that my autosomal DNA is striking familiar with that of the British Bell Beaker. Indeed the phenotype is also striking familiar as you describe.

    It’s rooted in the The Northern British/North Rhine Beaker Group (N/NR) as described by Clarke:
    ‘The particular interest of the Northern/North Rhine group and its close cousin the Barbed Wire beaker group, is that both groups only just scrape within the de nition of beakers of the Bell beaker tradition. Both tlle Northern/North Rhine and the Barbed-Wire beaker groups comprise traditions of mixed Late Corded Ware and peripheral Bell beaker origin. This mixture of traditions can be recognised in the squat, protruding foot, ovoid body beakers with recurved rims, incised or grooved decoration with a poor repertoire� of basic beaker motifs and a neolithic poverty of grave associations. To these factors can be added the occasional use of cremation burial rite in a small grave with the beaker beside the cremation heap, and a number of vessels without decoration below the belly.
    The Northern/North Rhine beaker group then is represented by the small squat . or globular vessels with protruding feet. The decoration frequently consists of heavy grooving below the rim with crude or carelessly incised zones on the body, including metopic motifs. The typical motif is the multiple outlined triangle of the diagnostic form common throughout the Corded Ware tradition and entirely alien in the Bell beakermotifassemblage(Struve, 1955,p.136).The origin of the groups seems to lie in the similar assemblages found immediately North of the old Rhine Delta and along the hinterland of the Frisian coasts. The Dutch examples of this group have been partially de ned by Modderman (1955) but the type is centered across the border in coastal Germany4. In this area it would appear that late and devolved Corded Ware groups integrated small bands of beaker settlers producing a pottery assemblage of hybrid character.
    These folk, with their strong non-beaker background, apparently crossed the North Sea in a series of small bands somewhere around 1700 B.C. or slightly later. The settlers clustered in three foci based on the North Sea Coast: - around the Moray Firth, in the Border Counties and on the Yorkshire Wolds. The domestic assemblage included both undecorated and non-plastic rusticated ware. The main importance of these settlers from across the North Sea lies in the subsequent inte­ gration of certain of their pottery features with the later Dutch beakers of the Veluwe type, giving rise to regional insular variations such as the beakers with short, angular. all-over-grooved necks.

    http://rjh.ub.rug.nl/Palaeohistoria/...ad/24936/22384


    Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
    Last edited by Northener; 25-02-18 at 12:51.

  12. #62
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    449


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Berun.... its not kura araxes! the key is before them. Shulaveri -Shomu (6000bc-4900bc)!!! :)

    Any way another one. Italy bell beaker in Parma full r1b -312. best fit is:
    over 50% southwest Iberian CA and 30% Yamnaya Kalmykia

    Hence a male eatern bell beaker, getting a Portuguese woman in north Italy! ... Jesus!
    Interesting

    I2477 from Parma was 45% Iberian CA and 0.3% Yamnaya, the rest Balkanic and Remedello. See it on Eurogenes blog comments

    She was a woman, mtDNA T2b3+151

  13. #63
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,228


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Interesting

    I2477 from Parma was 45% Iberian CA and 0.3% Yamnaya, the rest Balkanic and Remedello. See it on Eurogenes blog comments

    She was a woman, mtDNA T2b3+151
    Exactly. She's not a "Portugese woman".

    Some people have to stop thinking so literally and one dimensionally. This woman's .3% could be noise for all we know, and even if not, she could just be an average person from the surrounding area. The Remedello like and Balkan like alleles certainly fit. I've been saying for more than three years that there was a movement of Balkan area people into Italy in the Copper Age, maybe starting with a search for metals. Maybe some Copper Age farmer like genes also came from Iberia by way of southern France. I wish we had more samples from the latter area. Or maybe Copper Age farmers from around Emilia had some genetic input from Liguria that was like the alleles in Spain and southern France around that time.

    Also, the people in mid-Central Europe who encountered the "eastern" soon to become "Beakers" were slightly different than the Copper Age Iberians.

    I just don't think we know enough to be certain of this stuff yet.

  14. #64
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    528


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Interesting

    I2477 from Parma was 45% Iberian CA and 0.3% Yamnaya, the rest Balkanic and Remedello. See it on Eurogenes blog comments

    She was a woman, mtDNA T2b3+151
    I am talking about I2478. A male, R1b full P312.

  15. #65
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    449


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    I am talking about I2478. A male, R1b full P312.
    I know, I2477 is one of the other two BB from Parma

    See "Full output" in the comment of Eurogenes

  16. #66
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    528


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    I know, I2477 is one of the other two BB from Parma

    See "Full output" in the comment of Eurogenes
    Thanks. Just did. Wow. I respect Alberto.
    I am banned in there. Can you ask alberto which one is he using to give such a clear Southwesten Iberia CA... which is Portugal. So, land of older BB.

  17. #67
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    449


    Country: Italy



    actually i've never made a comment there, i'm just a lurker

  18. #68
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    528


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    actually i've never made a comment there, i'm just a lurker
    Come on. Just ask him. :)
    Its ok. As long as you dont say anything against Steppe theory they all dont care.

  19. #69
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    449


    Country: Italy



    The problem is that they require a LiveJournal, Wordpress ecc account, i dont have it..i only have google plus but i prefer not to use it for privacy reasons.

    I'm pretty sure that some user of this forum post there regularly

  20. #70
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    528


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    The problem is that they require a LiveJournal, Wordpress ecc account, i dont have it..i only have google plus but i prefer not to use it for privary reasons.

    I'm pretty sure that some user of this forum post there regularly
    Yes. I will get to him. ;) dont worry. thanks for bringing it to my attention.

  21. #71
    Moderator
    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    2,253


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    If the bell-shaped phenomenon has its origin in Portugal, which is what sustains science, the hardest thing to believe is that it expanded to the center of Europe and beyond as a kind of fashion, without the intervention of people, since the phenomenon or whatever you want to call it, they were not only ceramic pieces, they were also a way of burying people that imply questions of deep beliefs and religious values, this is difficult to expand as a fashion.


    Therefore, the most likely hypothesis would be:


    Expansion of the phenomenon from Portugal to the rest of Europe and North Africa, by individuals mixing WHG and EEF without steppe, it is not known yet if these individuals were R1b or not and they spoke an Indo-European or Basque or Iberian language, time will tell, mix of these individuals with people from the steppe in central Europe and later expansion of this mixture to the rest of Europe including a reflux towards the Iberian peninsula.
    That is exactly what I think is the most likely scenario, though I think that the admixture with the first Iberian BBs of Portugal may have been quite minor and additional admixture involved intermediary BBs or BB-influenced peoples in the rest of Iberia and maybe as far as Atlantic (western) France, who may have already been a bit influenced by steppe introgression. What I definitely do not think is most likely is that the first BBs were those who spread R1b to the entire Western and much of Central Europe. I think that, regardless of whether R1b men originally spoke IE or not, this haplogroup became associated with IE-speaking tribes of Central Europe and then expanded from there, not from Iberia, which after all has a substantial number of R1b and, more specifically, R1b-M269 only relatively late in comparison with places much further to the east in Eastern Europe (Balkans, Ukraine, Caucasus). And, coincidence or not, the steppe admixture appears in Central and Central-West Europe and we suddenly see many R1b men there.

  22. #72
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    72
    Posts
    4,913

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    This what is being challenge. And it does not matter that one tries to warn that:
    No, they do not have Bell beakers from Portugal ( reich states that they do, wrong). They have people from the region of bell beakers but basicly the ones "thrown" into caves not realy Bell beakers.
    Or bring their attention to the fact that Bell beakers, even the oldest ones ever radiocarbon, the ones at the footsteps of Leceia fortress, lived for hundreds of years in the same 500 meters with no bell beaker people and never mixed. So its THAT people that needs to be sampled.
    That the first wave out of Portugal would have left via Galiza and north spain by something before 2500bc.... and later bell beakers in Iberia where more "Evolved" and reflux. Actually even olalde speaks about "contrary to mtdna data and non metric dental traits". So they know that Mtdna and Nmdental clearly show exit out of iberia... and have been stating for long that the exogamy in central Europe group changed their nmdental characteristics.
    All the way, it seems these BB supposed "initiators" you cites with good reasons, found place in specific quarters of Chalco strongholds in Iberia, after some centuries; it seems to me that after some isolationism they were progressively integrated or at least accepted among other Chalco culture, and this could be the beginning of a spread of their artefacts (chiefly pottery to begin) perhaps in a religious or elitist snobism context. I don't see any contradiction in this spreading and the change in auDNA, as time passed and as some diverse local elites adopted it - in Alantic and Central+Rhine Europe, until the auDNA source became almost dried.
    and I was stroken when I looked to PCA of BBs compared to CWC by instance:
    the CWC were more grouped, compact spite their large area of settlements, compared to BB's of these studies, the ONES OF CENTRAL WEST EUROPE, more limited in cultural spreading, but covering all today Europe - PCA speaking - from Northwest to Balkans-South-East: so a very large spectrum which implies crossings with females of different places.
    I think we need still more anDNA of BBs of diverse place and PERIODS if we want compare the variation + maybe chronologic evolution in auDNA making and in mtDNA.
    I repeat: we don't know all about BB phenomenon and evolution...

    As you can see, if I reserve my jugement concerning SHulaveri culture (I'm weak in archeol), I'm not in complete opposition to your theory of Portugal as a source; but I 'm still unsure of remote origins of BB, i'm tempted to see in somewhere in East or South-East.

  23. #73
    Elite member
    Join Date
    23-02-15
    Location
    Groningen
    Posts
    1,149

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b/ E-V22

    Ethnic group
    North Sea Germanic
    Country: Netherlands



    Beaker phenomenon and the genomic transformation of northwest Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That is exactly what I think is the most likely scenario, though I think that the admixture with the first Iberian BBs of Portugal may have been quite minor and additional admixture involved intermediary BBs or BB-influenced peoples in the rest of Iberia and maybe as far as Atlantic (western) France, who may have already been a bit influenced by steppe introgression. What I definitely do not think is most likely is that the first BBs were those who spread R1b to the entire Western and much of Central Europe. I think that, regardless of whether R1b men originally spoke IE or not, this haplogroup became associated with IE-speaking tribes of Central Europe and then expanded from there, not from Iberia, which after all has a substantial number of R1b and, more specifically, R1b-M269 only relatively late in comparison with places much further to the east in Eastern Europe (Balkans, Ukraine, Caucasus). And, coincidence or not, the steppe admixture appears in Central and Central-West Europe and we suddenly see many R1b men there.
    I guess that the latest phase of the Bell Beaker, the Barbed Wire Beaker, was most probably a factor in the spread of R1BU106. For example: the samples Rise98, Lille Beddinge, Scania Sweden and Oostwoud, North Dutch.

  24. #74
    Elite member Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    820

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    From what i know Copper Age Sicily was already under "Eastern Meditearranean influences" (Anatolia or Cyprus, probably the same peoples detected by the Kılınç et al. study that replaced EEF there), but also the rest of Italy with the Rinaldone, Gaudo, Laterza culture.

    Btw i have checked the Excel file, there are no Y-DNA for Sicily only mtDNA, i dont know the origin of these maternal lines so i can't say if "my theory" is true (Beaker father - Indigenous mother or grandmother). Another explanation could be that the Beakers acquired the extra CHG in Sardinia (i remember reading a post on the Eurogenes Blog "Sardinia pack a lot of CHG" or something like that), since Sicilian Beaker came from there and not from the peninsula
    Already you can see the genetic cline north-south Italy. Anyway the Sicilian BBs plot close of modern-day Sicilians kinda like Myceneans.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  25. #75
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    114


    Country: USA - Connecticut



    Exclamation Hidden secrets

    Thanks for your challenge it an intoxicating taste that won't stop until I take a sip. Since I've located the books maybe if I have some specifics I can help more. It's truly amazing that we can find so much that has been concealed.
    (1) The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey, by Spencer Wells

    p. 27} Inside each of our cells, what we think of as our genome - the complete DNA sequence that encodes all of the proteins made in our bodies, in addition to a lot of other DNA that has no known function - is really present in two copies. The DNA is packaged into neat, linear components known as chromosomes - we have twenty-three pairs of them. Chromosomes are found inside a cellular structure known as the nucleus. One of the main features of our genome is the astounding compartmentalization - like computer folders within folders within folders. In all there are 3,000,000,000 (3 billion) building blocks, known as nucleotides (which come in four flavours: A, C, G and T), in the human genome, and we need some way to get at all of the information it contains in a straightforward way.
    {p. 28} The reason we have two copies of each chromosome is more compli- cated, but it comes down to sex. When a sperm fertilizes an egg, one of the main things that happens is that part of the father's genome and part of the mother's genome combine in a 50:50 ratio to form the new genome of the baby. Biologically speaking, one of the reasons for sex is that it generates new genomes every generation. The new combinations arise, not only at the moment of conception with the 50:50 mixing of the maternal and paternal genomes, but also prior to that, when the sperm and egg themselves are being formed. This pre-sexual mixing, known as genetic recombination, is possible because of the linear nature of the chromosomes - it is relatively easy to break both chromosomes in the middle and reattach them to their partners, forming new, chimeric chromosomes in the process. The reason why this occurs, as with the mixing of Mum's and Dad's DNA, is that it is probably a good thing, evolutionarily speaking, to generate diversity in each generation. If the environment changes, you'll be ready to react.
    But wait, you might say, why are these broken and reattached chromosomes any different from the ones that existed before? They were supposed to be duplicates! The reason, quite simply, is that they aren't exact copies of each other - they differ from each other at many locations along their length. They are like duplicates of duplicates of duplicates of duplicates, made with a dodgy copying machine that introduces a small number of random errors every time the chromo- somes are copied. These errors are the mutations mentioned above, and the differences between each chromosome in a pair are the polymorphisms. Polymorphisms are found roughly every 1,000 nucleotides along the chromosome, and serve to distinguish the chromosomes from each other. So, when recombination occurs, the new chromosomes are different from the parental types.
    The evolutionary effect of recombination is to break up sets of polymorphisms that are linked together on the same piece of DNA. Again, this diversity-generating mechanism is a good thing evolutionarily speaking, but it makes life very difficult for molecular biologists who want to read the history book in the human genome.
    {p. 29} Recombination allows each polymorphism on a chromosome to behave independently from the others. Over time the polymorphisms are recombined many, many times, and after hundreds or thousands of generations, the pattern of polymorphisms that existed in the common ancestor of the chromosomes has been entirely lost. The descendant chromosomes have been completely shuffled, and no trace of the original deck remains. The reason this is bad for evolutionary studies is that, without being able to say something about the ancestor, we cannot apply Ockham's razor to the pattern of polymorphisms, and we therefore have no idea how many changes really distinguish the shuffled chromosomes. At the moment, all of our estimates of molecular clocks are based on the rate at which new polymorphisms appear through mutation. Recombination makes it look like there have been mutations when there haven't, and because of this it causes us to overestimate the time that has elapsed since the common ancestor.

    2) Deep Ancestry: Inside the Genographic Project, by Spencer Wells

    It goes into greater detail about haplogroups (of both mtDNA and Y Chromosome). Persons sharing a genetic marker eg M9 or M52 are assigned to haplogroups.
    The major Y chromosome haplogroups for Europe are R1a1, R1b, I1a, I1b, J2, N and E36. Major mitochondrial haplogroups for Europe are H, K, T, U, V and J.
    Haplogroup J is a genetic signature from the first Neoloithic agriculturalists in the Middle East about 10,000 years ago; they expanded outwards from there, east as far as the Indus Valley, and also into east and central Europe, but the lineages carried by these Neolithic expansions are found today at low frequencies.
    For Haplogroup J, the ancestral line is "Eve" -> L1/L0 -> L2 -> L3 -> N -> R -> J.
    For R1b, the ancestral line is "Adam" -> M168 -> M89 -> M9 -> M207 -> M173 -> M343. Persons in R1b are descendants of the Cro-Magnon people, some of whom created the cave paintings in southern France. M343 is the defining marker of haplogroup R1b.
    For R1a1, the ancestral line is "Adam" -> M168 -> M89 -> M9 -> M45 -> M207 -> M173 -> M17. M17 is the defining marker of haplogroup R1a1; its bearers were the Aryan invaders from the steppes.
    Deep Ancestry: Inside the Genographic Project

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •