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Thread: Beaker phenomenon and the genomic transformation of northwest Europe

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Already you can see the genetic cline north-south Italy. Anyway the Sicilian BBs plot close of modern-day Sicilians kinda like Myceneans.
    Someone told me it's being discussed on Eurogenes. As usual, what's posted there on Italian genetics is usually less than convincing, shall we say.

    Some good posters still on there occasionally, though why I have no idea.

    "Roy King said...Nice!
    The Sicilian BB sample already has IranNeo influence prior to the Minoan/Mycenaean/Archaic Greek/Phoenician possible migrations. Clearly, with the arrival of IE languages there is an increase in Yamnaya admixture. My guess is that there was a metal-searching movement to Sicily and/or Sardinia in the 3rd millennium BCE."

    Roy King also posted somewhere:

    "Focusing on the Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean areas: The late Neolithic Peloponnese samples are shifted toward BA Anatolia and Chalcolithic Anatolia with presumptive CHG input. The earlier Neolithic sample from the Peloponnese aligns with the early Greek Neolithic samples. The later samples are about 4000 BCE in dating and also cluster with Minoan Crete samples. The one Minoan--I9130--who is G2a in Y chromosome looks like the Early Greek Neolithic samples; the rest cluster with the late Peloponnese and the late Anatolian (Chalcolthic/BA) samples. The data strongly suggest a movement circa 4000 BCE from Anatolia to mainland Greece, perhaps associated with J2a1 and the pre-Greek substrate languages (-ss- and -nth1 toponyms)"


    So, this kind of ancestry probably started arriving in Europe even before the 3rd millennium BC. We won't know whether, when, and how much of it reached Sicily until we get some ancient dna from there, but if these "models" are at all accurate, it might have been there since before the times of the Beakers.

    With the arrival of those "Mycenaean" like genomes, that would have increased.

    From some more of the intelligent, objective posters there:


    "Alberto said...

    I'm not getting any steppe admixture in that Sicilian BB, even including other Bell Beakers in the source. Instead I get:

    Beaker_Sicily:I4930
    Anatolia_ChL 45.4%
    Balkans_N 35%
    Iberia_Central_CA 10.25%
    Balaton_Lasinja_CA 5.35%
    Malak_Preslavets 2.5%
    Vinca_MN 1.45%
    LBK_EN_Austria 0.05%"


    Matt:
    "From visual analysis, it looks like to get to Sicilians, the easiest ancient model is Mycenaean+Central_European (though this may or may not be most historically and linguistically sensible). For Balkans it's Mycenaean+Slavic. The Balkans BA populations don't seem quite right as ancestral without extensive Anatolia_BA like ancestry.

    To get to the Mycenaeans themselves, it seems like Tepecik_Ciftlik+Balkans_BA or Anatolia_BA+Balkans_BA either work, depending on whether we pick more or less Anatolian-like Balkans_BA."

    I'm not sure it would make sense to model Sicilians as Sicilian Beaker plus whatever. Beakers were only in one part of the island, plus this particular sample looks like it was an early mix. I have no idea what the rest of the island would have looked like genomically in the mid 3rd century BC or even earlier.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Someone told me it's being discussed on Eurogenes. As usual, what's posted there on Italian genetics is usually less than convincing, shall we say.
    Every day that passes Eurogenes loses more and more credibility.

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    Alberto at Eurogenes, is modeling one of the R1b-312 Bell beakers in north Italy as:

    Beaker_Northern_Italy:I2478
    Iberia_Southwest_CA 51.05%
    Yamnaya_Kalmykia 33%
    Tisza_LN 12.95%
    Armenia_ChL 2.9%
    Ireland_MN 0.1%

    It looks like he is using the added individual in Olalde paper to model that later BB in italy. All other Portugal samples there are stated as Bell Beakers. None of those are!
    Now, added I6601 is different. Olalde call it SW_Iberia_CA. However, having 2800bc-2600bc, was the only one that "meet" or was part of the people making those pots.
    Bolores individuals were buried with care, with blades, beads, etc. Sort of an elite. Bolores is in the sizandro river that flows from Zambujal (place with the most bell beakers pots) to the sea. A region completely dominated by Zambujal people.


    http://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php/tp/article/view/680/703

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Alberto at Eurogenes, is modeling one of the R1b-312 Bell beakers in north Italy as:

    Beaker_Northern_Italy:I2478
    Iberia_Southwest_CA 51.05%
    Yamnaya_Kalmykia 33%
    Tisza_LN 12.95%
    Armenia_ChL 2.9%
    Ireland_MN 0.1%

    It looks like he is using the added individual in Olalde paper to model that later BB in italy. All other Portugal samples there are stated as Bell Beakers. None of those are!
    Now, added I6601 is different. Olalde call it SW_Iberia_CA. However, having 2800bc-2600bc, was the only one that "meet" or was part of the people making those pots.
    Bolores individuals were buried with care, with blades, beads, etc. Sort of an elite. Bolores is in the sizandro river that flows from Zambujal (place with the most bell beakers pots) to the sea. A region completely dominated by Zambujal people.


    http://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php/tp/article/view/680/703
    Sorry, delete

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    All the way, it seems these BB supposed "initiators" you cites with good reasons, found place in specific quarters of Chalco strongholds in Iberia, after some centuries; it seems to me that after some isolationism they were progressively integrated or at least accepted among other Chalco culture, and this could be the beginning of a spread of their artefact----variation + maybe chronologic evolution in auDNA making and in mtDNA.
    I repeat: we don't know all about BB phenomenon and evolution...

    As you can see, if I reserve my jugement concerning SHulaveri culture (I'm weak in archeol), I'm not in complete opposition to your theory of Portugal as a source; but I 'm still unsure of remote origins of BB, i'm tempted to see in somewhere in East or South-East.
    Moesan,
    Shulaveri Shomu will break my heart of they don’t turn out to be something real special. Now the Bell Beakers people from Portugal, either R1b or other, won’t really kill me.
    For now we have Shulaveri mtdna H15, H2a and I1… not typical of the region at all.
    Now, I don’t think they are the origin of BB. Just say that M269, L23 was born there! And when they disappear (4900BC) they went north Caucasus and steppe. They went west as one sees in KUM6, and even back to Balkans (where I think they came from in the 6300bc).
    Crazy , Crazy is me thinking that they formed Merimde beni salama and El-omari in Egypt. They follow “cousins” R1b-V88 that already were in Fayum . But much more crazy is me thinking that they follow their cattle to jump into Iberia in 3800-3300bc. --- And if they were the L23, already L51…then they would be the origin of Bell beakers. Crazy I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Already you can see the genetic cline north-south Italy. Anyway the Sicilian BBs plot close of modern-day Sicilians kinda like Myceneans.
    Do you think the Parma sample (I2478) is close to modern North Italians or even Tuscans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Do you think the Parma sample (I2478) is close to modern North Italians or even Tuscans?
    Hopefully, Hauteville will respond, but in the meantime you can look at posts 5 and 6 on this thread. There are three Bell Beaker samples from Parma. One is still very Sardinian like, i.e. late Neolithic, early Chalcolithic like, and plots there.

    I always have difficulty when the modern populations aren't labeled, but it seems to me that one plots among Spaniards, and one sort of in no man's land by itself, so, close to Northern Italians, perhaps, but needing both more Yamnaya and more CHG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    replacement of approximately 90% of Britain’s gene pool
    I think 90% is exaggerated because Bronze Age individuals with just 10% Neolithic British do NOT cluster with modern British. The ones that cluster with modern British are those who had ca. 20% Neolithic British. Also, average levels of Neolithic British in the population continued to increase after the initial invasion. It probably stabilized at +/- 20% in the Iron Age. Or, alternatively, there could be some new immigration from the continent that increased EEF admixture.

    =====

    It is interesting to compare individual Bronze Age samples with different levels of Neolithic British DNA.

    We can do this using for example GEDmatch or Global25. Below, I'm showing comparisons with use of G25.

    G25 scaled coordinates, distances of ancient individuals to full modern populations averages datasheet:

    Distance to: Bell_Beaker_England:I2416 (41% Neolithic British according to the official study):
    0.05189469 Basque_Spanish
    0.05292850 French_South
    0.05369300 French_Occitanie
    0.05375401 Spanish_Soria
    0.05376447 Basque_French
    (...)

    Distance to: Bell_Beaker_England:I1767 (26% Neolithic British according to the official study):
    0.02822366 Orcadian
    0.02969795 English_Cornwall
    0.03015939 English
    0.03022438 Scottish
    0.03076527 Welsh
    0.03150396 French_Brittany
    0.03255775 Irish
    (...)

    Distance to: Scotland_LBA:I2859 (18% Neolithic British according to the official study):
    0.02322505 Welsh
    0.02455399 Irish
    0.02561519 English
    0.02573993 English_Cornwall
    0.02593560 Scottish
    0.02600515 Orcadian
    0.02735488 French_Brittany
    (...)

    Distance to: Scotland_LBA:I2861 (17% Neolithic British according to the official study):
    0.02370501 Orcadian
    0.02441159 Irish
    0.02528121 Scottish
    0.02696494 Shetlandic
    (...)

    =====

    If you run samples with just 10% Neolithic British, they will not be so close to modern British populations.

    Because modern British people have around 20% of Neolithic British DNA - not the too often repeated 10%.

    =====

    Neolithic British DNA levels for all individuals, the ones with ca. 20% are the most similar to modern British:

    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM2_ESM.pdf - see Tables S9, S10 and S11



    This one - I5367 - was just 10% British Neolithic, and that's why is not so close to modern British, who are more Neolithic:

    Using Global25 scaled again:

    Distance to: Bell_Beaker_Scotland:I5367
    0.02862240 Icelandic
    0.03007086 Swedish
    0.03263945 Norwegian
    (...)



    ^^^
    On the other hand, I5379 (who was exactly 20% British Neolithic as seen above) is closest to modern Orcadians and Scottish.

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