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Thread: Przewalski horses are escaped Botaï horses

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    Przewalski horses are escaped Botaï horses

    Przewalski horses were supposed to be the last wild horses. In fact, they are feral :

    "They collected and later sequenced DNA from 20 Botai horse remains; they did the same for a similar number of horses living in various regions over the past 5000 years. They then compared these sequences to scores of already existing sequences, including Przewalski’s horses, and built a family tree showing which breeds were most closely related. The tree “was really quite a shock,” Orlando says.

    For one, Przewalski’s horses were in the same part of the tree as the Botai horses. From their relationship, it was clear that these “wild” horses were escaped Botai horses, the team reports today in Science. “We have now found that there are no truly wild horses left” anywhere in the world, Outram says.

    Another surprise was that all the other horses were on a separate branch of the tree, suggesting they were not Botai descendents as many have long thought."

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/...se-family-tree

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    Sad thing that there aren't any wild horses left. But somewhat cool to know what Botai (i.e. Copper Age) horses looked like. That must have been the same as those used by Yamna people as they are contemporaneous. I have seen a few in Belgium, at Han-sur-Lesse's Animal Reserve. They also have reconstituted aurochs.
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    Last edited by Dagne; 27-02-18 at 12:12.

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    It is very very different from European horses,

    it seems to me closer to donkey and Zebras than Horse,

    maybe because in Europe most horses are from Tarpan race,
    and my eyes are used to this look
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    It is very very different from European horses,

    it seems to me closer to donkey and Zebras than Horse,

    maybe because in Europe most horses are from Tarpan race,
    and my eyes are used to this look

    That's because horses evolved a lot since they were domesticated in the Steppe. Humans selectively bred them to become taller and stronger. Modern horses started appearing in Roman times, but kept changing until reaching their modern appearance only a few centuries ago. When the Huns invaded the Roman Empire, they still rode small horses closer to Przewalski horses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's because horses evolved a lot since they were domesticated in the Steppe. Humans selectively bred them to become taller and stronger. Modern horses started appearing in Roman times, but kept changing until reaching their modern appearance only a few centuries ago. When the Huns invaded the Roman Empire, they still rode small horses closer to Przewalski horses.

    But Tarpan race is also domesticated at Arianna steppe,
    and seems closer to Greek Scyriano and mountain horse and European horses
    which seem closer to modern European, which are heavily with the known Arab breeding race.


    Przewalski has 66 chromosomes
    Tarpan has 64 chromosomes

    yes indeed
    all Mongols and early Turkic populations used Przewalski,
    while Balkans and Aryans used Tarpan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    yes indeed
    all Mongols and early Turkic populations used Przewalski,
    while Balkans and Aryans used Tarpan
    1.Do you have some information about aryan horse? As far as I know, sintashta, east scythian, aryan and bronze china horse were same horses.
    This one would be aryan horse:
    http://www.ourglobaltrek.com/wp-cont...ajuraho-10.jpg

    The characterization of the Hun horse as deformes is too vague to draw conclusions from it. To a roman, most steppe horses must be looked as misshapen as the horse of the scythians, with their short legs and big heads, or those of the Sigynnae, shaggy and snub-nosed, allegedly too small to ride upon.18 The only author to give a good description of the Hun horse is Vegetius. ...following the example set by the Huns ad other barbarians, people have altogether ceased consulting veterinarians. ....The Roman horse is of a much more delicate constitution; unless it has good shelter and a warm stable, it will catch one illness after another.

    The 14 ancient genomes reported here have strong implications for the horse domestication process. First, it has recently been discovered that a now-extinct lineage of wild horses existed in the Arctic until at least ~5.2 ka and significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of present-day domesticates (14,15). The timing of the underlying admixture event(s) is, however, unknown. Using D statistics, we confirmed that this extinct lineage shared more derived polymorphisms with the Sintashta and especially Scythian horses than with present-day domesticates (Fig. 2B). The domestic horse lineage, thus, experienced a net loss of archaic introgressed tracts within the past ~2.3 ky.
    2. One more question, do you know what kind of horse Mycenaean Tholos Tomb horse is? and Did Minoan have this kind of horse burial culture also?


    AND
    A burial site containing an unusually well-preserved horse skeleton, intact even down to the hooves, was among the findings discovered during landscaping works around the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Cultural Center at the Faliro Delta, a prime tract of land in southern coastal Athens, Greece, which previously hosted the country’s only pari-mutuel horse track. The skeleton was presented to the Central Archaeological Council during a session held on Tuesday, with members stressing its importance.“In the Faliro necropolis, we have found four complete horse graves, as well as parts of other skeletons, therefore, it is not something rare for the area. What is rare and surprised us was the degree of preservation of the specific skeleton, which even has its hooves. For zoo-archaeologists or a university, this find could be an excellent opportunity for a study. Having such a large number of skeletons – four is quite a number – such a study could reach a number of conclusions on the breeds and the evolution of the species. From this point of view, this discovery is very important,” head archaeologist Stella Chrysoulaki explained.She noted that burying horses in a cemetery for people periodically occurred, while it was not strange for the Faliro necropolis, “where unbelievable things happen.” She noted that it was a cemetery stretching from the Archaic era to the Classical era, containing many strange and unusual findings. One such was the discovery of two skeletons, possibly of a couple, lying with their hands clasped. This indicated that they actually died together, since rigor mortis did not allow other conclusion, she said.A total of 136 burial sites dating back to the Archaic era had been found in the 840-square-meter ancient cemetery, including the horse burial site and sections of a mass grave, burial urns and other findings.The Central Archaeological Council approved continuing construction works over the discovered structures, which mostly consisted of ground holes, while the skeletons were removed for study. Proposals were made to display and highlight some of the findings at the cultural center.
    http://greece.greekreporter.com/file...2766371958.jpg


    Last edited by johen; 26-02-18 at 00:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    1.Do you have some information about aryan horse? As far as I know, sintashta, east scythian, aryan and bronze china horse were same horses.
    This one would be aryan horse:
    http://www.ourglobaltrek.com/wp-cont...ajuraho-10.jpg

    Lol
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @ Johen



    that is scyriano a relic from 5th century BC,

    it is Tarpan 64 chromosomes,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ Johen



    that is scyriano a relic from 5th century BC,

    it is Tarpan 64 chromosomes,
    I think ancient European might try not to ride a horse, of which legs were too thin to carry their huge body. See unstoppable Hunnic horse legs for war. That is "a beauty of ugliness" by Vegetius:


    Even until 10 centruty, I think european might be not strong for horse riding:

    Hungarian raids in the 9–10th century: really unstoppable


    Hungarians often declare themselves as the "riding nation". It is quite fair from historical point of view. Horses and horse riding played important role not only at the ancient time, during the migration of nations (from 400 to 1000 AD) when Hungarians occupied the land where Hungarian Kingdom was established. At that time, the famous Hungarian horseback achery frightened the whole Europe. But hosrses played a central role in Hungary over centuries not only in military affairs but in everyday life as well. Ancient Hungarians had relatively small, strong horses with strong survival capabilities, since the environment of their origin was poor in food and wheather conditions were also strong. This kind of horse became extinct at about the 17th-18th century, mostly due to the Turkish invasion. (The Turkish occupation period lasted one and a half century from the mid of the 16th to the beginning of the 18th century.)
    http://www.magyar-lovaskultura.hu/eng/index.htm
    Last edited by johen; 28-02-18 at 00:35.

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    @ Johen

    All horses in Europe and S West Asia are Tarpan,



    scyriano





    mountain horse
    evolution of previous
    its original height the times of Alexander was about 10 shorter at the neckshoulder
    Alexander had such kind horses, mixed with Thracian horses, when reach and conquer steppes
    much shorter than today horses but from same staff.


    Scyriano or an ancestor of it, was the horse of Myceneans,
    untouched from other modern brreding races,
    isolated for milleniums,

    these are Tarpan 64 chromosomes
    Przewalski has 66.

    That does not mean something
    but also can mean a lot.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is the actual paper. It doesn't seem as if the Botai horses had anything to do with the Indo-European migrations. So much for all of the theories built on that.

    "That none of the domesticates sampled in the past ~4000 years descend from the horses first herded at Botai entails another major implication. It suggests that during the third millennium BCE, at the latest, another unrelated group of horses became the source of all domestic populations that expanded thereafter. This is compatible with two scenarios. First, Botai-type horses experienced massive introgression capture (22) from a population of wild horses until the Botai ancestry was almost completely replaced. Alternatively, horses were successfully domesticated in a second domestication center and incorporated minute amounts of Botai ancestry during their expansion. We cannot identify the locus of this hypothetical center because of a temporal gap in our data set throughout the third millennium BCE. However, that the earliest DOM2 member was excavated in Hungary adds Eastern Europe to other candidates already suggested, including the Pontic-Caspian steppe (2), Eastern Anatolia (23), Iberia (24), Western Iran, and the Levant (25). Notwithstanding the process underlying the genomic turnover observed, the clustering of ~4023- to 3574-year-old specimens from Russia, Romania, and Georgia within DOM2 suggests that this clade already expanded throughout the steppes and Europe at the transition between the third and second millennia BCE, in line with the demographic expansion at ~4500 years ago recovered in mitochondrial Bayesian Skylines (fig. S14).This study shows that the horses exploited by the Botai people later became the feral PH. Early domestication most likely followed the “prey pathway,” whereby a hunting relationship was intensified until reaching concern for future progeny through husbandry, exploitation of milk, and harnessing (7). Other horses, however, were the main source of domestic stock over the past ~4000 years or more. Ancient human genomics (26) has revealed considerable human migrations ~5000 years ago involving Yamnaya culture pastoralists of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. This expansion might be associated with the genomic turnover identified in horses, especially if Botai horses were better suited to localized pastoral activity than to long distance travel and warfare. Future work must focus on identifying the main source of the domestic horse stock and investigating how the multiple human cultures managed the available genetic variation to forge the many horse types known in history."

    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6384/111.full


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    I don't think the Botai horses were even domesticated.

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