Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 66

Thread: Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,008
    Points
    42,480
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,480, Level: 63
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 470
    Overall activity: 77.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Really? Never heard of Renzi who has ancestors from Marche.

    It has been recently revealed that Franco Zeffirelli in his paternal line is one of the Leonardo Da Vinci's descendants.



    Nobody knows how Leonardo looks like for sure. All the Portraits out there are speculations.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

  2. #27
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,863
    Points
    311,408
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,408, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    This - that they were basically autochthonous, though not necessarily from Tuscany originally, maybe somewhere north or east from it - looks an increasingly promising hypothesis IMO.
    Another possibility is that the elites of the first millennium BC were a mix of prior elites with a more "northern" orientation because of input from various prior "Indo-European" speaking migrants from over the Alps, locals absorbed over time, and perhaps some input from the southeast. I'm definitely not sure that this input, perhaps including J2, of which there is quite a bit in Toscana, came in the first millennium BC.

    I have been saying for years that I think it will turn out that J2 (and bearers of other haplogroups as well) who carried more Caucasus like ancestry started entering Europe long before the first millennium BC, starting, indeed in the late Neolithic.

    I think I may be right, although when precisely this reached Italy has to wait for some more ancient dna from Italy.

    From Roy King:
    "Focusing on the Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean areas: The late Neolithic Peloponnese samples are shifted toward BA Anatolia and Chalcolithic Anatolia with presumptive CHG input. The earlier Neolithic sample from the Peloponnese aligns with the early Greek Neolithic samples. The later samples are about 4000 BCE in dating and also cluster with Minoan Crete samples. The one Minoan--I9130--who is G2a in Y chromosome looks like the Early Greek Neolithic samples; the rest cluster with the late Peloponnese and the late Anatolian (Chalcolthic/BA) samples. The data strongly suggest a movement circa 4000 BCE from Anatolia to mainland Greece, perhaps associated with J2a1 and the pre-Greek substrate languages (-ss- and -nth1 toponyms).

    This would explain why some of these samples are "like" modern Tuscans despite the fact that modern Tuscans supposedly have excess "Caucasus".


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #28
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,863
    Points
    311,408
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,408, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry, content deleted.

  4. #29
    Moderator Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,101
    Points
    29,559
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,559, Level: 52
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Nobody knows how Leonardo looks like for sure. All the Portraits out there are speculations.
    This is widely accepted as self portrait of Leonardo da Vinci.



    and this is accepted as a portrait of Leonardo done by his pupil Francesco Melzi.


  5. #30
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,863
    Points
    311,408
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,408, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    This is widely accepted as self portrait of Leonardo da Vinci.



    and this is accepted as a portrait of Leonardo done by his pupil Francesco Melzi.

    Thank you for interjecting some sanity, here.

    Marcello Lippi should have someone do his genealogy and see if he's a descendent of Fra Lippo Lippi. :)

    Self portrait of Filippino Lippi:




    I did see it in an article that Renzi has ancestry from the Marche, but I can't find it now. Maybe the author was wrong.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    29-12-16
    Posts
    71
    Points
    2,865
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,865, Level: 15
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Country: Bulgaria



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.



    Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/

  7. #32
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,863
    Points
    311,408
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,408, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.



    Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/
    Thanks, Eastara,

    Yes, I wondered upthread if maybe the Varna outlier with quite a bit of Yamnaya was the one who landed near Tuscans, given the genetic make-up of modern Tuscans, and not the "King" or chieftan or wealthiest man, however we would define him.

    I need someone who isn't slightly colorblind to read these for me. :)

    Which WHGs would have been near Varna? Would it have been Ukraine samples? Does Genetiker have pigmentation data for them?

    I know there was a blonde, blue-eyed Neolithic sample that Gamba et al showed quite a while ago. KO1 would have been the WHG in the area, yes?


    I know there was at least one in Anatolia.

    Then there are all the Globular Amphora ones. I don't know which particular hunter-gatherers they would have encountered.

    All of this said, I don't know what algorithm Genetiker is using, with how many snps.

  8. #33
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,240
    Points
    12,112
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,112, Level: 33
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 538
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.



    Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/
    There's a Sicilian like Iron Age Balkan as well, it's the red dot with the green dot inscribed in it. The other Iron Age balkans are, um, with the various Neolithic farmers directly below the Sicilians? My eyes hurt
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  9. #34
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,863
    Points
    311,408
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,408, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Has anyone checked the burial context of those Iron Age Balkan samples? Did Mathiesen et al provide it in the paper? Maybe I'm spoiled by Amorim et al, but without something like that how do we know how they fit in that time and place?

    One of them was included in a prior paper. He was buried in a pit and it seems as if he was some type of sacrifice. At the time I speculated he was a local enslaved by the incoming Indo-Europeans.

    As I say, I don't know anything about the context of the others.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    249
    Points
    10,077
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,077, Level: 30
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 473
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    All of you should relativize these Mathieson et al autosomal results.

    If you take a look into the numbers of the genomes, you will see quickly that Varna Outlier have 14 times more information than Varna Elite Leader. We can't talk about autosomal "FACTS" with a BAM file with less than 30k SNPs and mostly 1-2 reads/SNP

    The Varna Outlier female is in fact a reliable genome, ~400k but not the autosomal results of Varna Elite leader. He still could be blond perfectly because most of his linked SNPs have not been sequenced yet.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    29-12-16
    Posts
    71
    Points
    2,865
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,865, Level: 15
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Country: Bulgaria



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Has anyone checked the burial context of those Iron Age Balkan samples? Did Mathiesen et al provide it in the paper? Maybe I'm spoiled by Amorim et al, but without something like that how do we know how they fit in that time and place?

    One of them was included in a prior paper. He was buried in a pit and it seems as if he was some type of sacrifice. At the time I speculated he was a local enslaved by the incoming Indo-Europeans.

    As I say, I don't know anything about the context of the others.
    Yes, a detailed context with original photos of the excavations are given in the Supplementary Data:
    https://media.nature.com/original/na...re25778-s2.pdf

    It seems the Bulgarian Iron Age was accidentally included into the Neolithic/Chalcolithic samples from Dzhulyunitza. No indication this young woman could be a sacrifice.

    The Early Neolithic settlement of Dzhulyunitsa-Smardesh is located in north central Bulgaria,near the slanting northern slopes of the Pre-Balkan, where it is conterminal with the Danubianplain. This area is part of the Middle Yantra river valley which belongs to the Lower Danubecatchment. The site is situated on the first unflooded terrace, in a field called Smardesh, at analtitude of between 70 and 77 m. It is 4 km south of the current location of the Yantra and 2-3km west of its tributaries - the rivers Stara and Zlatarishka. The Early Neolithc site occupies approximately 10 hectares, decreasing in its final phase to ~0.5 ha.4,5 Dzhulyunitsa-Smardeshhas been excavated from 2001 up to present, revealing that the terrace was inhabited throughall periods. Graves were unearthed dating to the Late Iron Age, Early Bronze Age, LateChalcolithic and Early Neolithic. The Late Chalcolithic graves probably belong to anecropolis situated SE of the Chalcolithic settlement.

    Ÿ I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton inflexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head toSE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper)ornaments smaller than 5 mm.




  12. #37
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,863
    Points
    311,408
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,408, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I went back and re-read that section. I don't understand why some people have concluded this sample represents a new wave of migrants from Anatolia or other areas of the Mid-east. There's nothing in the archaeological context to indicate that from what I can see.

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,008
    Points
    42,480
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,480, Level: 63
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 470
    Overall activity: 77.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

    Migration Map of T-M184
    (Thread of The genomic history of Southeastern Europe-Mathiesen need/s this little map too - imho)

    What’s Interesting is that at some point split in 4. It goes To Europe, Asia, and goes back towards North Africa, and the Horn of Africa.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    249
    Points
    10,077
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,077, Level: 30
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 473
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Migration Map of T-M184
    (Thread of The genomic history of Southeastern Europe-Mathiesen need/s this little map too - imho)

    What’s Interesting is that at some point split in 4. It goes To Europe, Asia, North Africa, and towards the Horn of Africa.
    This is an outdated map. There is nothing like a split in 4. please see my tree: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

    Even is thought that T1a1 and T1a2 are splited separated from T1a3.

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,008
    Points
    42,480
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,480, Level: 63
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 470
    Overall activity: 77.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    This is an outdated map. There is nothing like a split in 4. please see my tree: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-M184_tree.png

    Even is thought that T1a1 and T1a2 are splited separated from T1a3.
    Migrations vs Subclades Mutations.
    Got this from 23andme V5 more o less couple of month ago as part of my results.
    Thanks (Your tree Shows me as Europe Middle Bronze Age)
    This is what NatGeo Helix got.

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    249
    Points
    10,077
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,077, Level: 30
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 473
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Migrations vs Subclades Mutations.
    Got this from 23andme V5 more o less couple of month ago as part of my results.
    Thanks (Your tree Shows me as Europe Middle Bronze Age)
    This is what NatGeo Helix got.
    Al of these maps has a very poor research behind it. Too limited references. Don't take into account them. I have talked with 23andMe team some years ago and they use close to nothing to make these maps. Genographic project also have outdated maps.
    Last edited by Alpenjager; 03-03-18 at 00:30.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    112
    Points
    1,765
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,765, Level: 11
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 85
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: USA - Connecticut



    The amount of information that we currently have at our fingertips seems to open our minds to a field of possibilities. I'm starting my second month and all I can say is thank you for sharing the high and lows of knowing about where to start.

  18. #43
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,008
    Points
    42,480
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,480, Level: 63
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 470
    Overall activity: 77.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?

    A bit confused
    IMO, a Tuscan mean: an Individual with more or less North/Center Italy + Etruscan Ancestry.
    Some on my results specifically single out the Tuscans, asserting that I match the reference DNA from Tuscans individuals with Italian Ancestry. (In other results I also match the Center and South Italians.)

  19. #44
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,863
    Points
    311,408
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,408, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    You mean these Etruscans? :)


  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,008
    Points
    42,480
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,480, Level: 63
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 470
    Overall activity: 77.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    I don’t Know, it’s all confusing to me, all DNA companies seems to a degree to contradict themselves. I give up, and go away for a while!

  21. #46
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,863
    Points
    311,408
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,408, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I don’t Know, it’s all confusing to me, all DNA companies seems to a degree to contradict themselves. I give up, and go away for a while!
    Stick with academic papers and you'll be fine. :)

  22. #47
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    249
    Points
    10,077
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,077, Level: 30
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 473
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I got GEDmatch autosomal results for Var43 Unreliable really, because there are less than 11k SNPs, but anyway and as a curiosity I will post here:

    GEDROSIA Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions


    Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic------------------36%
    East European HG---------------------------29%
    Iran Neolithic-----------------------------------15%
    Natufian-----------------------------------------11%
    Karitiana------------------------------------------8%

    Single Population Sharing:
    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Anatolia_ChL 22.89

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,008
    Points
    42,480
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,480, Level: 63
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 470
    Overall activity: 77.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    I got GEDmatch autosomal results for Var43 Unreliable really, because there are less than 11k SNPs, but anyway and as a curiosity I will post here:

    GEDROSIA Near East Neolithic K13 Admixture Proportions


    Anatolia-Aegean Neolithic------------------36%
    East European HG---------------------------29%
    Iran Neolithic-----------------------------------15%
    Natufian-----------------------------------------11%
    Karitiana------------------------------------------8%

    Single Population Sharing:
    #Population (source)Distance
    1Anatolia_ChL22.89
    Do you know the Gedmatch Kit Numbers of var43 and the others that you posted on the Y T in Germany ? Thanks a lot if you post them.

  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-03-11
    Posts
    249
    Points
    10,077
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,077, Level: 30
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 473
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Asturias



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Do you know the Gedmatch Kit Numbers of var43 and the others that you posted on the Y T in Germany ? Thanks a lot if you post them.
    Z002783 ANI152 (VAR43)

    Z017041 I0700 Malak Preslavets

    Z113504 I1108 Malak Preslavets

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,008
    Points
    42,480
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,480, Level: 63
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 470
    Overall activity: 77.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    Z002783 ANI152 (VAR43)

    Z017041 I0700 Malak Preslavets

    Z113504 I1108 Malak Preslavets
    Thanks for the Kit numbers Alpenjager. :)

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •