Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

If you think that portrait is realistic or you're either a ***** and just another anthrotard.

1200px-Verrocchio_Lorenzo_de_Medici.jpg
I had not intention to offend anybody, and I don’t believe I did.
Che cosa ho detto per meritare questo?
(What did I say to merit this?)
Va bè dai, non fa niente.
(It’s ok, it doesn’t matter.)
 
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I'm not sure what you mean by that. Varna and Globular Amphora are long before any proposed migration of people from Lydia to Toscana in the first millennium BC.

If they're really like Tuscans, then the Etruscans would be basically autochthonous.

This - that they were basically autochthonous, though not necessarily from Tuscany originally, maybe somewhere north or east from it - looks an increasingly promising hypothesis IMO.
 
I meant the Numbers in the picture are very small, and hard to read. We couldn’t see it. lol

That wasn't the part of your post to which I was referring. It was this:

In this context, every-time I read Tuscans, I always assume a share ancestry with Ancient Etruscans.

I didn't know what you meant by it.

As I said, Varna and Globular Amphora are thousands of years before any proposed migration of Lydians to Toscana in the first millennium BC.

So, if those people were really already "Tuscan" like, then that might indicate that if any such migration did take place, it didn't change the genetics of the people very much.
 
Matteo Renzi looks nothing like a Celt, and shows nothing of that influence, if that's what you were going for, and furthermore most of his ancestors are from the Marche, which is quite different. He looks really Central Italian to me, not specifically Tuscan.

Really? Never heard of Renzi who has ancestors from Marche.

It has been recently revealed that Franco Zeffirelli in his paternal line is one of the Leonardo Da Vinci's descendants.

Franco-Zeffirelli-%C3%A8-discendente-di-Leonardo-Da-Vinci.jpg


zeffirelli_franco_inf.jpg
 
That wasn't the part of your post to which I was referring. It was this:



I didn't know what you meant by it.

As I said, Varna and Globular Amphora are thousands of years before any proposed migration of Lydians to Toscana in the first millennium BC.

So, if those people were really already "Tuscan" like, then that might indicate that if any such migration did take place, it didn't change the genetics of the people very much.

In this context, It only meant that when somebody mention Tuscans it’s not always easy to understand f they also mean Etruscans too.
Sorry from my part for not been clear.
 
Really? Never heard of Renzi who has ancestors from Marche.

It has been recently revealed that Franco Zeffirelli in his paternal line is one of the Leonardo Da Vinci's descendants.

Franco-Zeffirelli-%C3%A8-discendente-di-Leonardo-Da-Vinci.jpg


zeffirelli_franco_inf.jpg
Nobody knows how Leonardo looks like for sure. All the Portraits out there are speculations.
 
This - that they were basically autochthonous, though not necessarily from Tuscany originally, maybe somewhere north or east from it - looks an increasingly promising hypothesis IMO.

Another possibility is that the elites of the first millennium BC were a mix of prior elites with a more "northern" orientation because of input from various prior "Indo-European" speaking migrants from over the Alps, locals absorbed over time, and perhaps some input from the southeast. I'm definitely not sure that this input, perhaps including J2, of which there is quite a bit in Toscana, came in the first millennium BC.

I have been saying for years that I think it will turn out that J2 (and bearers of other haplogroups as well) who carried more Caucasus like ancestry started entering Europe long before the first millennium BC, starting, indeed in the late Neolithic.

I think I may be right, although when precisely this reached Italy has to wait for some more ancient dna from Italy.

From Roy King:
"Focusing on the Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean areas: The late Neolithic Peloponnese samples are shifted toward BA Anatolia and Chalcolithic Anatolia with presumptive CHG input. The earlier Neolithic sample from the Peloponnese aligns with the early Greek Neolithic samples. The later samples are about 4000 BCE in dating and also cluster with Minoan Crete samples. The one Minoan--I9130--who is G2a in Y chromosome looks like the Early Greek Neolithic samples; the rest cluster with the late Peloponnese and the late Anatolian (Chalcolthic/BA) samples. The data strongly suggest a movement circa 4000 BCE from Anatolia to mainland Greece, perhaps associated with J2a1 and the pre-Greek substrate languages (-ss- and -nth1 toponyms).

This would explain why some of these samples are "like" modern Tuscans despite the fact that modern Tuscans supposedly have excess "Caucasus".
 
Sorry, content deleted.
 
Nobody knows how Leonardo looks like for sure. All the Portraits out there are speculations.

This is widely accepted as self portrait of Leonardo da Vinci.

Leonardo_self.jpg


and this is accepted as a portrait of Leonardo done by his pupil Francesco Melzi.

Francesco_Melzi_-_Portrait_of_Leonardo_-_WGA14795.jpg
 
This is widely accepted as self portrait of Leonardo da Vinci.

Leonardo_self.jpg


and this is accepted as a portrait of Leonardo done by his pupil Francesco Melzi.

Francesco_Melzi_-_Portrait_of_Leonardo_-_WGA14795.jpg

Thank you for interjecting some sanity, here.

Marcello Lippi should have someone do his genealogy and see if he's a descendent of Fra Lippo Lippi. :)

Self portrait of Filippino Lippi:
41_00575081~fra-filippo-lippi_selfportrait.jpg


5497.jpg


I did see it in an article that Renzi has ancestry from the Marche, but I can't find it now. Maybe the author was wrong.
 
Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.

nature25778-sf1.jpg


Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/
 
Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.

nature25778-sf1.jpg


Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/

Thanks, Eastara,

Yes, I wondered upthread if maybe the Varna outlier with quite a bit of Yamnaya was the one who landed near Tuscans, given the genetic make-up of modern Tuscans, and not the "King" or chieftan or wealthiest man, however we would define him.

I need someone who isn't slightly colorblind to read these for me. :)

Which WHGs would have been near Varna? Would it have been Ukraine samples? Does Genetiker have pigmentation data for them?

I know there was a blonde, blue-eyed Neolithic sample that Gamba et al showed quite a while ago. KO1 would have been the WHG in the area, yes?
e2f58637e92f5766da4525af77d1cc0e--iron-age-communication.jpg


I know there was at least one in Anatolia.

Then there are all the Globular Amphora ones. I don't know which particular hunter-gatherers they would have encountered.

All of this said, I don't know what algorithm Genetiker is using, with how many snps.
 
Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.

nature25778-sf1.jpg


Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/

There's a Sicilian like Iron Age Balkan as well, it's the red dot with the green dot inscribed in it. The other Iron Age balkans are, um, with the various Neolithic farmers directly below the Sicilians? My eyes hurt
 
Has anyone checked the burial context of those Iron Age Balkan samples? Did Mathiesen et al provide it in the paper? Maybe I'm spoiled by Amorim et al, but without something like that how do we know how they fit in that time and place?

One of them was included in a prior paper. He was buried in a pit and it seems as if he was some type of sacrifice. At the time I speculated he was a local enslaved by the incoming Indo-Europeans.

As I say, I don't know anything about the context of the others.
 
All of you should relativize these Mathieson et al autosomal results.

If you take a look into the numbers of the genomes, you will see quickly that Varna Outlier have 14 times more information than Varna Elite Leader. We can't talk about autosomal "FACTS" with a BAM file with less than 30k SNPs and mostly 1-2 reads/SNP

The Varna Outlier female is in fact a reliable genome, ~400k but not the autosomal results of Varna Elite leader. He still could be blond perfectly because most of his linked SNPs have not been sequenced yet.
 
Has anyone checked the burial context of those Iron Age Balkan samples? Did Mathiesen et al provide it in the paper? Maybe I'm spoiled by Amorim et al, but without something like that how do we know how they fit in that time and place?

One of them was included in a prior paper. He was buried in a pit and it seems as if he was some type of sacrifice. At the time I speculated he was a local enslaved by the incoming Indo-Europeans.

As I say, I don't know anything about the context of the others.

Yes, a detailed context with original photos of the excavations are given in the Supplementary Data:
https://media.nature.com/original/n...urnal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature25778-s2.pdf

It seems the Bulgarian Iron Age was accidentally included into the Neolithic/Chalcolithic samples from Dzhulyunitza. No indication this young woman could be a sacrifice.

The Early Neolithic settlement of Dzhulyunitsa-Smardesh is located in north central Bulgaria,near the slanting northern slopes of the Pre-Balkan, where it is conterminal with the Danubianplain. This area is part of the Middle Yantra river valley which belongs to the Lower Danubecatchment. The site is situated on the first unflooded terrace, in a field called Smardesh, at analtitude of between 70 and 77 m. It is 4 km south of the current location of the Yantra and 2-3km west of its tributaries - the rivers Stara and Zlatarishka. The Early Neolithc site occupies approximately 10 hectares, decreasing in its final phase to ~0.5 ha.4,5 Dzhulyunitsa-Smardeshhas been excavated from 2001 up to present, revealing that the terrace was inhabited throughall periods. Graves were unearthed dating to the Late Iron Age, Early Bronze Age, LateChalcolithic and Early Neolithic. The Late Chalcolithic graves probably belong to anecropolis situated SE of the Chalcolithic settlement.

Ÿ I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton inflexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head toSE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper)ornaments smaller than 5 mm.



 
I went back and re-read that section. I don't understand why some people have concluded this sample represents a new wave of migrants from Anatolia or other areas of the Mid-east. There's nothing in the archaeological context to indicate that from what I can see.
 
Migration Map of T-M184
(Thread of The genomic history of Southeastern Europe-Mathiesen need/s this little map too - imho)
qbESOwz_d.jpg

What’s Interesting is that at some point split in 4. It goes To Europe, Asia, and goes back towards North Africa, and the Horn of Africa.
 
Migration Map of T-M184
(Thread of The genomic history of Southeastern Europe-Mathiesen need/s this little map too - imho)
qbESOwz_d.jpg

What’s Interesting is that at some point split in 4. It goes To Europe, Asia, North Africa, and towards the Horn of Africa.

This is an outdated map. There is nothing like a split in 4. please see my tree: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Haplogroup_T-M184_tree.png

Even is thought that T1a1 and T1a2 are splited separated from T1a3.
 

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