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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

    Among the several samples found in the recently published Mathieson et al study is found the sample of a Elite leader individual from the Varna Culture, this ruler was the priest-king of a powerful metallurgical civilisation (the earliest major assemblage of gold artifacts anywhere in the world), with male dominance and the first fully developed hierarchy.
    His grave counts with around 1000 pieces of Gold like a War Axe, Bulls and a penis protection. This is the most richest grave in the world at this time period, as far as known.

    He is found to be positive for T-M184 equivalent SNPs:
    Y3804/FGC1231+
    Z7767/FGC1179+

    This sample: ANI152 / VAR43 is
    dated as 6495yBP and his mtDNA is U2

    Varna skull grave 43 T-M184 Гроб-43-Череп-и-възстановка-на-главата.gifSkull 43 Varna VHNI-Гроб-43-череп.jpgSkull 43 Varna Портретна-реконструкция-на-човек-от-халколи.jpgSkull 43 Varna VHNI-Гроб-43-очертания-през-черепа.jpgtreasure-varna_43.jpg

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    Last edited by Alpenjager; 26-02-18 at 10:59.

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    Hey I saw him as your avatar, salento! I was wondering who he was
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Hey I saw him as your avatar, salento! I was wondering who he was
    That’s because people I’m my House think that he looks a bit like me.
    Later I changed the Avatar again to an older one. (That’s me and Neandy by the way)

    (I’m also Y T)

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    Thank you for spelling out a connective tissue of both the Verna Culture and it's Priest- King. The ability to organizing the facts adds credibility to a search for a point of entry.
    The hardest part of organizing my thoughts was answered.

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    According to Genetiker the Varna "King" was "T~M184".

    Don't we have his autosomal make-up from Mathiesen? Ah, here we go...

    Wait a minute, this Admixture chart doesn't have a Varna sample labeled ANI152, VAR 43, which is how Genetiker describes it. Is there new labeling in the official paper?




    https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...west_yamna.png


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    According to Genetiker the Varna "King" was "T~M184".

    Don't we have his autosomal make-up from Mathiesen? Ah, here we go...

    Wait a minute, this Admixture chart doesn't have a Varna sample labeled ANI152, VAR 43, which is how Genetiker describes it. Is there new labeling in the official paper?




    https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...west_yamna.png
    Is it this maybe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Is it this maybe?
    That's it! Thanks. I wasn't at my laptop and couldn't read it properly on my small device.

    It looks to me like some steppe, and two kinds of "western" h/g, yes, but the total is perhaps under 20%?

    In looking at the PCA, a Varna sample lands, again, on the Tuscans. I'm definitely going to start calling my Lunigiana and eastern Ligurian half "Tuscan". :) Varna, Globular Amphora, the Iron Age Thracian, and in the post Roman era, even some of the Pannonian locals (the southern ones), have been described as Tuscan like

    I wonder if that's the King? Or, given how Tuscans are often modeled as 1/3 "Germanic" like, which I've always thought meant all the more steppe heavy northerners who moved south, maybe it's the Varna sample with more stepp?

    On the other PCA in Mathiesen et al, where they put all the samples, am I reading it right and some land in Sicily? Maybe one of those is the "King".

    I'm going to try to get a visual of it, but I'm not as good as you. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's it! Thanks. I wasn't at my laptop and couldn't read it properly on my small device.

    It looks to me like some steppe, and two kinds of "western" h/g, yes, but the total is perhaps under 20%?

    In looking at the PCA, a Varna sample lands, again, on the Tuscans. I'm definitely going to start calling my Lunigiana and eastern Ligurian half "Tuscan". :) Varna, Globular Amphora, the Iron Age Thracian, and in the post Roman era, even some of the Pannonian locals (the southern ones), have been described as Tuscan like

    I wonder if that's the King? Or, given how Tuscans are often modeled as 1/3 "Germanic" like, which I've always thought meant all the more steppe heavy northerners who moved south, maybe it's the Varna sample with more stepp?

    On the other PCA in Mathiesen et al, where they put all the samples, am I reading it right and some land in Sicily? Maybe one of those is the "King".

    I'm going to try to get a visual of it, but I'm not as good as you. :)
    In this context, every-time I read Tuscans, I always assume a share ancestry with Ancient Etruscans.

    Those Numbers are very small.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    In this context, every-time I read Tuscans, I always assume a share ancestry with Ancient Etruscans.

    Those Numbers are very small.
    I'm not sure what you mean by that. Varna and Globular Amphora are long before any proposed migration of people from Lydia to Toscana in the first millennium BC.

    If they're really like Tuscans, then the Etruscans would be basically autochthonous.

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    Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?

    A bit confused

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    Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?

    A bit confused
    I spent over a year in Florence.
    Appearance wise, IMO most Tuscans are a mix: 3/4 Mediterranean, 1/4 Celt.
    Matteo Renzi - Former Italian PM, and Mayor of Florence.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...eo_Renzi_2.jpg
    Roberto Benigni

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I spent over a year in Florence.
    Appearance wise, IMO most Tuscans are a mix: 3/4 Mediterranean, 1/4 Celt.
    Matteo Renzi - Former Italian PM, and Mayor of Florence.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Matteo_Renzi_2.jpg
    Roberto Benigni
    We have the genetics, no need to guess, unless you mean strictly in terms of appearance?

    Matteo Renzi looks nothing like a Celt, and shows nothing of that influence, if that's what you were going for, and furthermore most of his ancestors are from the Marche, which is quite different. He looks really Central Italian to me, not specifically Tuscan.

    Also, Benigni, whom I adore, is hardly "typical" of more "Mediterranean" looking Tuscans, although he's maybe a funnier looking version of Dante.



    There is certainly a range among Tuscans, however. These are the ones that immediately come to my mind.

    Yves Montand:


    Luigi Ugolini:


    Paolo Ruffini:



    Gianna Nannini when she was young:


    Oriana Fallaci:


    Irene Grandi:


    Stefania Sandrelli:


    Massimiliano Allegri-maybe closer to Varna man?


    Maybe more what you're thinking of when you say showing more of the "Celtic" influence? (although it could very well be Italic influence as well) It's my impression that these "types" are more common in the northwestern part of Toscana proper, like Livorno, Viareggio, etc., and that people get more "Mediterranean" as you go toward Lazio. However, that's not always the case. There are really no hard and fast rules for this sort of thing in Italy: you can always find exceptions. Zeffirelli, for example, was born around Firenze, while Allegri comes from the northwest.

    Jovanotti:


    Marcello Lippi when he was young and a player:


    Franco Zeffirelli:



    As for Sile, if he had the slightest modicum of civility, he would be still here, even if he has a reputation for posting material which is totally incorrect and confused.

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    Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We have the genetics, no need to guess, unless you mean strictly in terms of appearance?
    I do mean In Term of Appearances, not genetics.
    Lorenzo De Medici:

    La Gioconda:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I do mean In Term of Appearances, not genetics.
    Lorenzo De Medici:

    If you think that portrait is realistic or you're either a ***** and just another anthrotard.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Matteo Renzi looks nothing like a Celt, and shows nothing of that influence, if that's what you were going for, and furthermore most of his ancestors are from the Marche, which is quite different. He looks really Central Italian to me, not specifically Tuscan.
    Really? Never heard of Renzi who has ancestors from Marche.

    It has been recently revealed that Franco Zeffirelli in his paternal line is one of the Leonardo Da Vinci's descendants.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Really? Never heard of Renzi who has ancestors from Marche.

    It has been recently revealed that Franco Zeffirelli in his paternal line is one of the Leonardo Da Vinci's descendants.



    Nobody knows how Leonardo looks like for sure. All the Portraits out there are speculations.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I spent over a year in Florence.
    Appearance wise, IMO most Tuscans are a mix: 3/4 Mediterranean, 1/4 Celt.
    Florence has now not less non-native people than other big and medium Italian cities, becoming more similar to Rome or Milan or Turin, or any other Italian city that has received large migrations, especially from southern Italy. The Italian demography north of Naples has changed everywhere in Italy in the last 50-70 years due to domestic migrations. Tuscans do have more Mediterranean types than north Italians from the the Alps and Prealps, but it's much less noticeable with north Italian people from the Po Valley.

    Anthropological maps realized shortly after the unification of Italy and then before the great demographic changes occurred in Italy in the last 150 years. According to the first map, there is a bit more blondism in Tuscany and other central Italian regions than in the eastern part of Emilia-Romagna, lower north Italian Po Valley.

    Blondism in Italy








    Height in Italy 1879-1883



    Roberto Benigni is a comedian, hardly comedians are average faces. Roberto Benigni with his wife who is a north Italian actress from Romagna. Anyway, Benigni is not a Med type.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Florence has now not less non-native people than other big and medium Italian cities, becoming more similar to Rome or Milan or Turin, or any other Italian city that has received large migrations, especially from southern Italy. The Italian demography north of Naples has changed everywhere in Italy in the last 50-70 years due to domestic migrations. Tuscans do have more Mediterranean types than north Italians from the the Alps and Prealps, but it's much less noticeable with north Italian people from the Po Valley.

    Anthropological maps realized shortly after the unification of Italy and then before the great demographic changes occurred in Italy in the last 150 years. According to the first map, there is a bit more blondism in Tuscany and other central Italian regions than in the eastern part of Emilia-Romagna, lower north Italian Po Valley.

    Blondism in Italy








    Height in Italy 1879-1883



    Roberto Benigni is a comedian, hardly comedians are average faces. Roberto Benigni with his wife who is a north Italian actress from Romagna. Anyway, Benigni is not a Med type.

    Exactly right, Pax.

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    Elite leader of the Varna Culture T-M184 ( western Black sea coast )

    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Wait, what does Tuscan like actually mean? Don't Tuscans vary? Is being Tuscan like simply a matter of being genetically similar to any Tuscan group, whether Southern Tuscan, northern, or in between?

    A bit confused
    IMO, a Tuscan mean: an Individual with more or less North/Center Italy + Etruscan Ancestry.
    Some on my results specifically single out the Tuscans, asserting that I match the reference DNA from Tuscans individuals with Italian Ancestry. (In other results I also match the Center and South Italians.)

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    Sile input in this Thread would be Highly Appreciated. He has extended Knowledge of the T-M184 Haplogroup!

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.



    Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.



    Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/
    Thanks, Eastara,

    Yes, I wondered upthread if maybe the Varna outlier with quite a bit of Yamnaya was the one who landed near Tuscans, given the genetic make-up of modern Tuscans, and not the "King" or chieftan or wealthiest man, however we would define him.

    I need someone who isn't slightly colorblind to read these for me. :)

    Which WHGs would have been near Varna? Would it have been Ukraine samples? Does Genetiker have pigmentation data for them?

    I know there was a blonde, blue-eyed Neolithic sample that Gamba et al showed quite a while ago. KO1 would have been the WHG in the area, yes?


    I know there was at least one in Anatolia.

    Then there are all the Globular Amphora ones. I don't know which particular hunter-gatherers they would have encountered.

    All of this said, I don't know what algorithm Genetiker is using, with how many snps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    Varna samples do not fall over modern Tuscans, but at no man land of modern Europeans, where most of the Neolithic samples are. As far as I can see Varna are the red outlined orange squares and probably only Varna outlier, who has more Yamnaya falls over the Tuscans. In fact the Balkan Bronze age (blue filled red circles) is all over the Tuscans.



    Regarding the racial type, Genetiker just released the pigmentation from the published genomes. Again only Varna outlier is blond/blue eyed, the other was normal dark hair/brown eyes for the EEF. However there are other Neolithic samples that are blue eyed and even blond. Not sure if it is from admixture with local WHD/EHD or it already existed in Western Anatolia before migrating to Europe.
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/
    There's a Sicilian like Iron Age Balkan as well, it's the red dot with the green dot inscribed in it. The other Iron Age balkans are, um, with the various Neolithic farmers directly below the Sicilians? My eyes hurt

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