Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30

Thread: R1b-L23

  1. #1
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-17
    Posts
    8
    Points
    1,569
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,569, Level: 11
    Level completed: 7%, Points required for next Level: 281
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5

    Ethnic group
    Slovak/Hungarian
    Country: Slovakia



    R1b-L23

    Hello,I was wondering if someone could help me out with the possible origin of my y-chromosome.I'm R1b-L23 according to 23andme and on the morleydna.com I got :R1b1a2a R1b-L23 (R1b-L49, R1b-L150).I was under the impression that R1b is more or less connected to the Indo-Europeans and is most common among western europeans today,but seems like this subclade is more common among middle easterners/anatolians/southern europeans.How is this possible and what could have been the possible route for it to Eastern Europe(Slovakia).

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by Eblö View Post
    Hello,I was wondering if someone could help me out with the possible origin of my y-chromosome.I'm R1b-L23 according to 23andme and on the morleydna.com I got :R1b1a2a R1b-L23 (R1b-L49, R1b-L150).I was under the impression that R1b is more or less connected to the Indo-Europeans and is most common among western europeans today,but seems like this subclade is more common among middle easterners/anatolians/southern europeans.How is this possible and what could have been the possible route for it to Eastern Europe(Slovakia).
    What are really the downstream subclade you Have? you are just R1b1a2a?
    anyway, if you are L23 without further subclades than you are really interesting. Are you sure? I only know of other guy in Erzurum in Armenia.

    Being L23 in Hungary should really be that your ancestry is really very, very old there.

    My Opinion (others should have others) : L23 was born out of M269 males in a culture in south Caucasus, called the Shulaveri Shomu in Armenia and georgia (mainly here). They arrived there still as M269 and when they vanished, by 4900BC, they were already L23. Some went to north Caucasus and some by south cost of black sea to places like Kumtepe, thrace and back into Balkans (where I think they came from in 6200bc as M269).

    One of its "sons" was L51. the forefather of 60-80% of all western Europeans.

    Have a story about them. Maybe just a fantasy or a novel. but who knows. See:
    https://blogs.sapo.pt/cloud/file/eb6...l%20beaker.pdf

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Eblo,

    here is from someone who knows better than me.


    R1b1a1a2a-L23* (L51- Z2105-) in Erzurum (Armenian: Կարին, Karin) from the Balanovsky​ et al. (2017) study!
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...439-017-1770-2

    What I have to say is that we *also* find R1b1a1a2b-PF7562* (PF7563-) in someone with Laz ancestry from Trabzon.
    Was R1b1a1a2a-L23 ... KARTVELIAN and then became "Indo-Europeanized"? What does this say about Basque?
    Is this why none of the R1b-Y20993 (R-KMS75) Yamnaya descendants are Indo-European speakers today?

    Roy King​ said... (on Eurogenes)
    As an academic, I do love to simplify, if warranted. That said, we are all aware of the complexities and tend to prefer agnosticism to faith in pet theories or ancestral nationalist ideologies.
    May I summarize the arguments of this paper?

    1) L23 is the marker of importance, not M269, P297, V88 etc...to the proposition.
    2) So far, in modern populations there is only 1 L23*(xZ2103,xL51) and that is an Armenian from Ezerum, Turkey. I can attest that the Underhill lab has found no L23*(xZ2103,xL51) in modern samples across Europe/Asia.
    3) It seems that a vicariant biogeographical model fits L23---it bifurcates into L51 and Z2103 with its original L23* drifting to extinction except in Erzerum so far. Vicariance occurs say in two valleys of green warblers vs. yellow warblers with a long time separating the two subspecies, genetically.
    4) The authors conclude that since Z2103 is the dominant Yamnaya Y lineage, Yamnaya could not have fully given rise to L51 in Western Europe.

    This is an extreme simplification of the argument, I hold an agnostic view and await more aDNA samples. Anatolia HG are rather undersampled in comparison to European HG, yet we know, archaeologically, that there were many HG populations alongside the Neolithic populations of Anatolia


  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    9,356
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,356, Level: 29
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 594
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    The Armenian case and you would favour a neolithic Anatolian expansion for M269, being dominated by G2a males otherwise.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,935
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,935, Level: 12
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Portugal



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    The Armenian case and you would favour a neolithic Anatolian expansion for M269, being dominated by G2a males otherwise.
    ...humm. Dont know if I get your coment correctly. Anyways what I figure so far:

    a. ~8000BC, as the Barcin (G2a) males spread agriculture, they avoid first Thrace and balkans. Why? - because that was the land of "different people".

    b. That Thrace up to Iron gates was full of R1b males. I think some of those mainly pastoral people were already M269 when they moved INTO Anatolia. Anatolia was devided by a forest north/south. So, Barcin south, and these guys higly pastoral (more than farmers) moving by south Black sea cost into South caucasus by 6000BC were also great farmers also by that time. They have a trademark: Spelt , which they brought from Vinca land. Follow spelt from that point on and you are following that people.

    c. When forming Shulaveri-Shomu (6200bc), in Georgia, at the Kura river, they were very different from the surrounding. just some resemblance to Halaf. That Kura river basin was a great place to be left alone. They mingled with some CHG people. they had a 1000 years to look into Caucasus mountains (especially near black sea).

    d. When something bad happened (they completely vanished by 4900BC). settlement burned, most never occupied by nobody, not even Sioni, they new wher to run. Kuban river, and into steppe. some back to Kumtepe (Kum6) and on back to Balkans. Those back to balkans should really be L23 (xAnything else),

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    29-12-16
    Posts
    71
    Points
    2,865
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,865, Level: 15
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Country: Bulgaria



    I know 23andMe did not test for Z2103, Z2105 before and probably in the latest version of the chip as well. You must be some branch under Z2105, this is common in Hungary/Slovakia. If you would like to know the exact terminal SNP, order some advanced test with FamilyTreeDNA.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    29-12-16
    Posts
    71
    Points
    2,865
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,865, Level: 15
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Country: Bulgaria



    Just found somebody has posted the Y chr SNPs tested by 23andMe version 5.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8ojpasj08...blic.xlsx?dl=0

    Z2103,
    Z2105 are not tested, but some under Z2109 are:

    rs752991313 14091439 CTS1843/Z2109 T C R1b1a1a2a2c1
    rs770646523 17535772 CTS7556 C T R1b1a1a2a2c1a1
    rs765610667 18755279 CTS9219 G A R1b1a1a2a2c1a1a
    rs762436942 21987083 Y5587 A G R1b1a1a2a2c1a1a1
    i706313 7046288 BY250 A G R1b1a1a2a2c1a1a2

    You can check your raw data if positive for those. However some other major branches under Z2103 like L277 and L584 are missing completely, maybe because not typical for Europeans.

  8. #8
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-03-18
    Posts
    5
    Points
    722
    Level
    6
    Points: 722, Level: 6
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Romania



    Good morning, I would be very helpful if any of you would help me understand a little better the subject of genetics. According to 23andme the Y-Adn is R-L23 and according to MorleyDNA my Y-DNA is R1b1a2a1a2b3b R1b-S47. Which of them is the most reliable? I thank you very much for your patience and I would like to shed more light on this.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-17
    Posts
    8
    Points
    1,569
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,569, Level: 11
    Level completed: 7%, Points required for next Level: 281
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5

    Ethnic group
    Slovak/Hungarian
    Country: Slovakia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks everyone for the replies,it was interesting to read it.I'm negative for the spn-s posted by Estara BUT I've found I have CTS1083 which some people equate with Z2103 on various sites,however many seems to disagree with it so probably without doing a y-test i wont get much further with the snps tested by 23andme.
    Btw heres the one that I did on morleydna,it seems to me that I'm not only L23 but i cant make too much out of it.
    https :// imgur . com/a/EVxX5

    Edit:If I am truly Z2103,could it be some connected to the Yamna culture/first IE invasion,or its likely some more recent migration?

  10. #10
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    08-03-18
    Posts
    5
    Points
    722
    Level
    6
    Points: 722, Level: 6
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Romania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hello, in Wegene.com they tell me that my Y-adn is R1b1a1a2a2c1a1a2 R1b-BY250. Could someone tell me which of them is the most accurate?

  11. #11
    Viscount Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    350
    Points
    8,343
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,343, Level: 27
    Level completed: 33%, Points required for next Level: 407
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Eblo & Abixu

    Welcome to the R1b-9219+ tribe. Paternally, we are distantly related. Ignore the negative comments, and those who do not share a part of our paternal ancestry; labeling us with everything and anything under the sun.

    I will pm both of you, no need to agitate those lurking with negative comments.

  12. #12
    Viscount Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    350
    Points
    8,343
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,343, Level: 27
    Level completed: 33%, Points required for next Level: 407
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Abixu View Post
    Hello, in Wegene.com they tell me that my Y-adn is R1b1a1a2a2c1a1a2 R1b-BY250. Could someone tell me which of them is the most accurate?
    The following errors occurred with your submission

    • Abixu has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

    The following errors occurred with your submission

    • Abixu has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.


  13. #13
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-17
    Posts
    8
    Points
    1,569
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,569, Level: 11
    Level completed: 7%, Points required for next Level: 281
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5

    Ethnic group
    Slovak/Hungarian
    Country: Slovakia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Sent you a pm

  14. #14
    Viscount Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    350
    Points
    8,343
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,343, Level: 27
    Level completed: 33%, Points required for next Level: 407
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Eblö
    Hello,thanks i would definitely love to know more,its good to know there are other eastern europeans with a similar haplogroup:)
    "The Szigetszentmiklós occupants are considered by the osteologist to be highly heterogeneous and that may be evident in the craniometrics of the four individuals genetic tested here, 49, 133, 552, 688 (table 4 of Köhler). This cemetery is also, according to Kitti Köhler, the first time in the history of this Carpathian region that the Bell Beaker ethnic type is determined.

    As we look to the Olalde paper, the Szigetszentmiklós individuals are in a genetic sense, a society of mixed ancestries. The individual pictured above (I2787) has the highest concentration of the Steppe-like ancestry of any individual within the Beaker world, and probably Western Europe for that matter. At the same rate, Szigetszentmiklós has an individual (I2741) who exhibits nearly zero Steppe-like ancestry.

    It may be tempting to over-interpret the heterogeneity from Szigetszentmiklós, especially having an individual with such elevated Steppe-related ancestry, buried in the Beaker format. But there are several different narratives for these four individuals that can't yet be excluded.

    When you look at grave 688 (I2787), you will see below his Y-chromosome haplogroup is identified as R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) which is unlike almost all Bell Beakers (that can be discerned) but absolutely like many of the Yamnaya sequenced to date. This can mean several things, but one reasonable possibility is that I2787 was ethnically half Bell Beaker and half Tisza Yamnaya. I could imagine his father as a relatively unmixed Yamnaya pastoralist from across the Tisza River and that his mother was an ethnic Central European Bell Beaker, which is why he was entitled to Beaker rites at Szigetszentmiklós.

    It could also be viewed as fray from a region that in some past time sent out founder lineages; but whether true or not, I don't think that would really describe this man's personal history, not on Csepel Island. Some sites on the island have ridiculous quantities of horse remains. I2787's family history may reflect the horse trade and networks that connected different peoples in this area. Maybe his parents were some of those different peoples."



    Also sample from Poland-
    I4253, Bell Beaker, 2571-2208 calBCE


    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962
    doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135962

    I4253
    mtDNA: U5a2c
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2

    Map with saples from Poland and Hungary scroll over dots.

    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/49.210/21.764


    Quote Originally Posted by Eblö View Post
    Sent you a pm
    Your box is full, rest of info above.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-04-18
    Posts
    32
    Points
    1,994
    Level
    12
    Points: 1,994, Level: 12
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 156
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L23
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U7a4

    Ethnic group
    Iranian
    Country: Germany



    Hey I also got R1b-L23 as my 23andme Y-DNA. Who could be the source of my Y-DNA like written above this Y-DNA is usually linked to the Yamnaya. Btw I am Iranian Bakhtiari. Can someone help me to get more information about my Y-DNA ?

  16. #16
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    195
    Points
    2,933
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,933, Level: 15
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 117
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Y133384

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Hey I also got R1b-L23 as my 23andme Y-DNA. Who could be the source of my Y-DNA like written above this Y-DNA is usually linked to the Yamnaya. Btw I am Iranian Bakhtiari. Can someone help me to get more information about my Y-DNA ?
    Yes, test some STR markers at FamilyTreeDNA or YSEQ for starters.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Gannicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-04-18
    Posts
    209
    Points
    1,719
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,719, Level: 11
    Level completed: 57%, Points required for next Level: 131
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L51
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7

    Ethnic group
    Albanian - ?celt? - tosk - myzeqjar
    Country: Italy



    Ok guys, personally i am R1b-L51 (ht-15) from albania, i discovered that it is uncommon there, where is more whidespread the L23 (ht-35) one rather then mine, but i am curious, what root did L23 take to get to albania? Direct from anatolia? Or maybe central europe?
    Illyrians, the most proposed candidates for explaining albanian origins are prooved to have carried R1b-L23 (ht-35) but it is even known by roman chronicles that they passes the austrian alps around 1000 b.c. heading towards the dinaric alps coming from central europe (hungary/czech republic) if we could find a good percentage of samples of this subclade from there we could proove the illyrian origin to have had place around there, and would even help us understand where to search for tombs with inscriptions and objects linking back to them and see how the fit with the more general scene.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    416
    Points
    6,701
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,701, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    I am also an R1b-L23 at least according to Morley DNA site.

  19. #19
    Junior Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    29-09-14
    Posts
    3
    Points
    2,978
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,978, Level: 15
    Level completed: 76%, Points required for next Level: 72
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: UK - England



    I am R1b L23 according to livingdna. R1b z2103 according to yseq. I live in the uk and can trace my family back to 1629, and have a saxon surname so weve probably been in the uk since 500 AD. Very rare in the uk. One theory is Roman Auxiliary troops

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    17-09-17
    Posts
    322
    Points
    3,483
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,483, Level: 17
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 367
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United States



    Hi Steve, do you have your STR results? If you show me your marker values (if you tested with YSEQ you probably have them) I might be able to tell you your deeper subclade and maybe give you some more info on its origins.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    15-05-14
    Location
    İstanbul, Turkey
    Posts
    30
    Points
    3,436
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,436, Level: 16
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Turkey



    you may be of Turkic Cuman/Kipchak origin as they were around Hungary. R1b-L23 haplogroup is mostly found among Bashkir Turks and its also Y-DNA of 10% of Turkish citizens according to Eupedia.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    15-05-14
    Location
    İstanbul, Turkey
    Posts
    30
    Points
    3,436
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,436, Level: 16
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 14
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Turkey



    There is also Etruscan branch of R1b-L23 located Western Europe which are founder tribe of Roman empire, the British and other West European R1b-L23 are originated Etruscan(Ancient Italy) and Trojan(Ancient West Anatolia)

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    2,987
    Points
    41,396
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,396, Level: 62
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 254
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by sonici View Post
    There is also Etruscan branch of R1b-L23 located Western Europe which are founder tribe of Roman empire, the British and other West European R1b-L23 are originated Etruscan(Ancient Italy) and Trojan(Ancient West Anatolia)
    It’s completely fine to have an opinion, But if you make a claim of this Magnitude you need to back it up with Links and Sources.

  24. #24
    Baron Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-05-12
    Posts
    272
    Points
    6,006
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,006, Level: 22
    Level completed: 92%, Points required for next Level: 44
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by sonici View Post
    you may be of Turkic Cuman/Kipchak origin as they were around Hungary. R1b-L23 haplogroup is mostly found among Bashkir Turks and its also Y-DNA of 10% of Turkish citizens according to Eupedia.
    In central and western Anatolia, I recalled it being closer to 15-18%, and slightly over 20% in Greek areas of western Anatolia. (ie: Smyrna Phokaia)

  25. #25
    Baron Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-05-12
    Posts
    272
    Points
    6,006
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,006, Level: 22
    Level completed: 92%, Points required for next Level: 44
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Ok guys, personally i am R1b-L51 (ht-15) from albania, i discovered that it is uncommon there, where is more whidespread the L23 (ht-35) one rather then mine, but i am curious, what root did L23 take to get to albania? Direct from anatolia? Or maybe central europe?
    Illyrians, the most proposed candidates for explaining albanian origins are prooved to have carried R1b-L23 (ht-35) but it is even known by roman chronicles that they passes the austrian alps around 1000 b.c. heading towards the dinaric alps coming from central europe (hungary/czech republic) if we could find a good percentage of samples of this subclade from there we could proove the illyrian origin to have had place around there, and would even help us understand where to search for tombs with inscriptions and objects linking back to them and see how the fit with the more general scene.
    Very cool, L51+ (xL11) is very rare no matter how you look at it. What site did you test with, you are the first I am aware of.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •