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Thread: Albanian lexemes and their presence in the other languages

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    there are many ancient Greek dialects,

    if you know modern Greek, it is not difficult to understand koine, at a very high degree, some even with no effort
    but to be more you need more than 6 months, tenses Syntax forms etc

    if we talk about Homeric or Aeolian
    you need year and more, and surely a mentor

    Thank you for clarifying.

    I have a little theory that might explain why some words and names from Ancient Greece might make sense in Albanian as well. Just an idea so feel free to tell me why it might be wrong or right.

    As far as I know all Balkan languages of the 1st and 2nd millenium BC are IE. Now, since protoIE was spoken until maybe 2500 BC, that means by the time Linear B came out, not that much differentiation would have taken place, and especially since there were other IE languages in the area, it is possible that the language spoken by Myceneans might have been still relatively undifferentiated from them.

    If we compare to Italian-Romanian or Russian-Serbian, the Mycenean-Illyrian or Mycenean-Thracian split was probably of a similar time length, but the latter remained in proximity to each other while Romanians were cut off from other Latin speakers, and south Slavs were cut off from other Slavic speakers. Yet Italian is very similar to Romanian and Serbian very similar to Russian, at least for linguists.

    So rather than the linguistic differences in Serbian-Albanian-Greek today, back then the gradient might have been more like Russian-Ukranian-Polish, or something similar. For example, Epirus and Macedonia are thought to have spoken special dialects of Greek, sometimes even called barbaric. This might be just because all Greek dialects came from protoIE and then developed semiindependently, but still enough in contact so that they remain intelligible. Since Illyrians, Thracians, etc were also IE, it is possible that their languages were either intelligible with whatever groups they were close to. What I am saying is moving from let's say Ionian to Aeolian to Doric to Epirotan to Illyrian, might have been like moving from Dutch to German to Danish.

    Since Albanian comes from one of the IE Balkan languages of that period, trying to determine if a word is Greek or Albanian, to me seems as futile as trying to determine if a 7th century Slavic word is Russian, Serbian or Polish. Just as different Slavic cultures evolved from one and then slowly differentiated, so protoIE split into many branches, so the further back you look into it, the more obvious the relation with more than one modern branch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Thank you for clarifying.

    I have a little theory that might explain why some words and names from Ancient Greece might make sense in Albanian as well. Just an idea so feel free to tell me why it might be wrong or right.

    As far as I know all Balkan languages of the 1st and 2nd millenium BC are IE. Now, since protoIE was spoken until maybe 2500 BC, that means by the time Linear B came out, not that much differentiation would have taken place, and especially since there were other IE languages in the area, it is possible that the language spoken by Myceneans might have been still relatively undifferentiated from them.

    If we compare to Italian-Romanian or Russian-Serbian, the Mycenean-Illyrian or Mycenean-Thracian split was probably of a similar time length, but the latter remained in proximity to each other while Romanians were cut off from other Latin speakers, and south Slavs were cut off from other Slavic speakers. Yet Italian is very similar to Romanian and Serbian very similar to Russian, at least for linguists.

    So rather than the linguistic differences in Serbian-Albanian-Greek today, back then the gradient might have been more like Russian-Ukranian-Polish, or something similar. For example, Epirus and Macedonia are thought to have spoken special dialects of Greek, sometimes even called barbaric. This might be just because all Greek dialects came from protoIE and then developed semiindependently, but still enough in contact so that they remain intelligible. Since Illyrians, Thracians, etc were also IE, it is possible that their languages were either intelligible with whatever groups they were close to. What I am saying is moving from let's say Ionian to Aeolian to Doric to Epirotan to Illyrian, might have been like moving from Dutch to German to Danish.

    Since Albanian comes from one of the IE Balkan languages of that period, trying to determine if a word is Greek or Albanian, to me seems as futile as trying to determine if a 7th century Slavic word is Russian, Serbian or Polish. Just as different Slavic cultures evolved from one and then slowly differentiated, so protoIE split into many branches, so the further back you look into it, the more obvious the relation with more than one modern branch.
    That's an eminently reasonable supposition at its core, unlike many of the central claims that seem to be offered in these sorts of threads every time that often rely not even on cognates but false friends (to just keep to the mild eccentricities). For a view like the one you offered here, see e.g.

    http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~gar...onvergence.pdf

    http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~garrett/BLS1999.pdf

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Thank you for clarifying.

    I have a little theory that might explain why some words and names from Ancient Greece might make sense in Albanian as well. Just an idea so feel free to tell me why it might be wrong or right.

    As far as I know all Balkan languages of the 1st and 2nd millenium BC are IE. Now, since protoIE was spoken until maybe 2500 BC, that means by the time Linear B came out, not that much differentiation would have taken place, and especially since there were other IE languages in the area, it is possible that the language spoken by Myceneans might have been still relatively undifferentiated from them.

    If we compare to Italian-Romanian or Russian-Serbian, the Mycenean-Illyrian or Mycenean-Thracian split was probably of a similar time length, but the latter remained in proximity to each other while Romanians were cut off from other Latin speakers, and south Slavs were cut off from other Slavic speakers. Yet Italian is very similar to Romanian and Serbian very similar to Russian, at least for linguists.

    So rather than the linguistic differences in Serbian-Albanian-Greek today, back then the gradient might have been more like Russian-Ukranian-Polish, or something similar. For example, Epirus and Macedonia are thought to have spoken special dialects of Greek, sometimes even called barbaric. This might be just because all Greek dialects came from protoIE and then developed semiindependently, but still enough in contact so that they remain intelligible. Since Illyrians, Thracians, etc were also IE, it is possible that their languages were either intelligible with whatever groups they were close to. What I am saying is moving from let's say Ionian to Aeolian to Doric to Epirotan to Illyrian, might have been like moving from Dutch to German to Danish.

    Since Albanian comes from one of the IE Balkan languages of that period, trying to determine if a word is Greek or Albanian, to me seems as futile as trying to determine if a 7th century Slavic word is Russian, Serbian or Polish. Just as different Slavic cultures evolved from one and then slowly differentiated, so protoIE split into many branches, so the further back you look into it, the more obvious the relation with more than one modern branch.
    Ownstyler, your theory, would have the fate of every other theory, but the truth itself has died out together with the past. The fate will be decided, how convenient the theory is as opposed to people interest(for example Latgal already likes it, so chances are great your theory is wrong), especially if we talk like this in general. Also, you are taking for granted the existence of the PIE language, a language which has never been proved, to have ever existed. Nevertheless for the sake of the discussion, let's suppose that every language split from a common mother language, which we call PIE. Still your analogy between Russian-Serbian group and Ioanian-Doric-Epirotan-Illyrian is false, because initiates based on the wrong premises, which are:
    1. Russian and Serbian belong to the same language family and not the same 'territorial -family' like Ionian-Doric-Epirotan-Illyrian which you implicated by using the term "IE Balkan languages"
    2. Russian and Serbian are NOT dead languages like Ionian-Doric-Epirotan-Illyrian, unless you meant that Ionian and Doric are represented by Greek today, and Epirotan and Illyrian are represented by Albanian.
    3. After the (2) we might have a bigger problem, meanwhile most of Albanians claim heritage from Epirotans-Illyrians, most of Greeks today not only claim Ionian-Doric as Greek, but they will say that even Epirotic and Illyrians are just barbaric Greek dialects, while modern Albanian has nothing to do with that period of time, but is some kind of migrative language, coming some say from Caucasus, some from Sicily some say is mechanical mixture of Latin-Turkish-Slavic-Germanic-Celtic or I don't know what else they say.

    After (3) we might have the problem with the assumption that PIE split theory is valid, because for the reasons explained on (3) Albanian doesn't fit very well the idea, that Albanian(or better saying proto-Albanian) is like every other language, splitting at the same time from PIE language, and developed in give or take Albanian today territory, neighbouring languages like Greek(or I don't know what else) since the PIE split dawn.
    So first, let's agree where Albanian come from, if we dare to say anything genuine, or we consider our thought to be objective. I am warning you they don't like that much the idea that Albanian is the Epirotic language, but they are a little more lenient, when you assume that it comes from Illyrian. But you will feel more isolated, because Illyrian writing heritage is close to nothing, so is the knowledge about the whole race, so you most likely will end up, to debate if Albanians really descend from Illyrians or not, which is the consequence of the way how the history is imposed to be seen or interpreted.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Thank you for clarifying.

    I have a little theory that might explain why some words and names from Ancient Greece might make sense in Albanian as well. Just an idea so feel free to tell me why it might be wrong or right.

    As far as I know all Balkan languages of the 1st and 2nd millenium BC are IE. Now, since protoIE was spoken until maybe 2500 BC, that means by the time Linear B came out, not that much differentiation would have taken place, and especially since there were other IE languages in the area, it is possible that the language spoken by Myceneans might have been still relatively undifferentiated from them.

    If we compare to Italian-Romanian or Russian-Serbian, the Mycenean-Illyrian or Mycenean-Thracian split was probably of a similar time length, but the latter remained in proximity to each other while Romanians were cut off from other Latin speakers, and south Slavs were cut off from other Slavic speakers. Yet Italian is very similar to Romanian and Serbian very similar to Russian, at least for linguists.

    So rather than the linguistic differences in Serbian-Albanian-Greek today, back then the gradient might have been more like Russian-Ukranian-Polish, or something similar. For example, Epirus and Macedonia are thought to have spoken special dialects of Greek, sometimes even called barbaric. This might be just because all Greek dialects came from protoIE and then developed semiindependently, but still enough in contact so that they remain intelligible. Since Illyrians, Thracians, etc were also IE, it is possible that their languages were either intelligible with whatever groups they were close to. What I am saying is moving from let's say Ionian to Aeolian to Doric to Epirotan to Illyrian, might have been like moving from Dutch to German to Danish.

    Since Albanian comes from one of the IE Balkan languages of that period, trying to determine if a word is Greek or Albanian, to me seems as futile as trying to determine if a 7th century Slavic word is Russian, Serbian or Polish. Just as different Slavic cultures evolved from one and then slowly differentiated, so protoIE split into many branches, so the further back you look into it, the more obvious the relation with more than one modern branch.

    ok first lets make something clear,
    it is needed to go further,

    The linguistic family and difference among language and dialect,

    the linguistic family is a greater 'daughter' of LPIE,
    such families are Latin Italian Francais Spanisg pPortoquese Romanian ...
    Germanic Like Dutch Deutsch English etc
    Slavic like Slovakian and Croatian etc
    Baltic
    Greek an alone family, for some Greco-Brygian, (me also)
    Albanian, an alone family (can you tell me with which language can be sister?)

    so Greek and Albanian are NOT in the same Family,
    that makes it difficult to be sister languages,
    with all that means,

    I do not want to go further,
    it is not wise, this era.

    I hope with above to understand.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Ownstyler, your theory, would have the fate of every other theory, but the truth itself has died out together with the past. The fate will be decided, how convenient the theory is as opposed to people interest(for example Latgal already likes it, so chances are great your theory is wrong), especially if we talk like this in general. Also, you are taking for granted the existence of PIE language, a language which has never been proved, to have ever existed. Nevertheless for the sake of the discussion, let's suppose that every language split from a common mother language, which we call PIE. Still your analogy between Russian-Serbian group and Ioanian-Doric-Epirotan-Illyrian is false, because initiates based on the wrong premises, which are:
    1. Russian and Serbian belong to the same language family and not the same 'territorial -family' like Ionian-Doric-Epirotan-Illyrian which you implicated by using the term "IE Balkan languages"
    2. Russian and Serbian are NOT dead languages like Ionian-Doric-Epirotan-Illyrian, unless you meant that Ionian and Doric are represented by Greek today, and Epirotan and Illyrian are represented by Albanian.
    3. After the (2) we might have a bigger problem, meanwhile most of Albanians claim heritage from Epirotans-Illyrians, most of Greeks today not only claim Ionian-Doric as Greek, but they will say that even Epirotic and Illyrians are just barbaric Greek dialects, while modern Albanian has nothing to do with that period of time, but is some kind of migrative language, coming some say from Caucasus, some from Sicily some say is mechanical mixture of Latin-Turkish-Slavic-Germanic-Celtic or I don't know what else they say.

    After (3) we might have the problem with the assumption that PIE split theory is valid, because for the reasons explained on (3) Albanian doesn't fit very well the idea, that Albanian(or better saying proto-Albanian) is like every other language, splitting at the same time from PIE language, and developed in give or take Albanian today territory, neighbouring languages like Greek(or I don't know what else) since the PIE split dawn.
    So first, let's agree where Albanian come from, if we dare to say anything genuine, or we consider our thought to be objective. I am warning you they don't like that much the idea that Albanian is the Epirotic language, but they are a little more lenient, when you assume that it comes from Illyrian. But you will feel more isolated, because Illyrian writing heritage is close to nothing, so is the knowledge about the whole race, so you most likely will end up, to debate if Albanians really descend from Illyrians or not, which is the consequence of the way how the history is imposed to be seen or interpreted.

    HOAX
    HOAX

    Just an effort to input in our minds
    his political ideas.

  6. #206
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    Here you go, it just started. I warned you Ownstyler in the post 203. Ask him now : which ancient language, Albanian come from, and very likely, you will get no response, or all kind of assumptions, but they will never accept that Albanian is the Epirotic language in its modern shape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Greek an alone family, for some Greco-Brygian, (me also)
    Albanian, an alone family (can you tell me with which language can be sister?)
    Brygians, who? Those people who were calling the bread 'bek' similar with Albanian 'buk'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Still your analogy between Russian-Serbian group and Ioanian-Doric-Epirotan-Illyrian is false, because initiates based on the wrong premises, which are:
    1. Russian and Serbian belong to the same language family and not the same 'territorial -family' like Ionian-Doric-Epirotan-Illyrian which you implicated by using the term "IE Balkan languages"
    I didn't imply that they are "territorial family" languages, I implied they would have comparable similarity to what same-family languages have today because IE had not produced very different branches yet, just as Slavic has similar branches now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    2. Russian and Serbian are NOT dead languages like Ionian-Doric-Epirotan-Illyrian, unless you meant that Ionian and Doric are represented by Greek today, and Epirotan and Illyrian are represented by Albanian.
    3. After the (2) we might have a bigger problem, meanwhile most of Albanians claim heritage from Epirotans-Illyrians, most of Greeks today not only claim Ionian-Doric as Greek, but they...
    What Albanians or Greeks claim today is irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    So first, let's agree where Albanian come from, if we dare to say anything genuine, or we consider our thought to be objective.
    We don't have to agree on where it comes from as long as we agree, as all serious scholarship does, that it comes from a paleo-Balkan IE language. That's all that is necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    ok first lets make something clear,
    it is needed to go further,

    The linguistic family and difference among language and dialect,

    the linguistic family is a greater 'daughter' of LPIE,
    such families are Latin Italian Francais Spanisg pPortoquese Romanian ...
    Germanic Like Dutch Deutsch English etc
    Slavic like Slovakian and Croatian etc
    Baltic
    Greek an alone family, for some Greco-Brygian, (me also)
    Albanian, an alone family (can you tell me with which language can be sister?)

    so Greek and Albanian are NOT in the same Family,
    that makes it difficult to be sister languages,
    with all that means,
    proto-Albanian is a sister language to all early IE languages including protoGreek, and it was probably relatively similar to early Greek dialects like Mycenean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    proto-Albanian is a sister language to all early IE languages including protoGreek, and it was probably relatively similar to early Greek dialects like Mycenean.
    Let me have my precautions,
    All the fields I know
    and my linguistic amateur-ity
    do not show such

    When we say alone family
    we mean alone family
    Sister's degree is diffrent among Deutsch/Dutch comparing Bulgaria/Spanish
    and also above the family is the bigger family
    like Celtic, Balto-Slavic,
    DID YOU EVER HEARD a family GRECO-ALBANIAN?
    for Greek we arque even if it is a Yamnaa language
    or a Catacomb one,
    Do you know the origin of Albanian if it Is Yamnaa or Catacomb?
    So Albanian as family Language is sister to the degree with Germanic Slavic Celtic Greek etc,



    the only isotones language to Greek is Brygian,

    to claim something such as the above you have to prove it
    and not to me or the forum
    but in big congresses.

    Let us be serious,
    I am not a searcher of Albanian language,
    but claiming something like that you post so easily,
    it is not a wise action,
    cause until Today
    the certain things are Few, very Few,

    Lets be honest to our shelves.

    I never heard of Greco-Albanian family theory

    Although we both heard about Greco-Aryan
    Greco-Armenian

    IE Balkan (or Paleo-Balkan as you want) Languages is not a family of languages,
    term Accepted as a geographical term/category only




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    I have two questions that i can not give personally an logical answer.
    We know who were the ancient Greeks and the, glorious civilization produced by them. I don't think is necessary to repeat who were the Ancient Greeks.
    Meanwhile we have an family of the Latin languages, we don't have an family of Greek languages. Why?
    And second. From one side, the barbarian, primitive and illiterate Illyrians ruled the Roman Empire with a long line of Emperors, continuing to remain pagans. Meanwhile from the other side, the glorious ancient Greeks were at the bottom of the piramide of the power of the Roman Empire and embraced an proletarian religion like Christianity. Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    I never heard of Greco-Albanian family theory

    Although we both heard about Greco-Aryan
    Greco-Armenian

    IE Balkan (or Paleo-Balkan as you want) Languages is not a family of languages,
    term Accepted as a geographical term/category only
    I never claimed there was a Greco-Albanian family. Please try to understand what I am saying, which is that at that time there weren't even proper language families. Today you can see that Spanish, Greek and Bulgarian are very different from each other, but they all came from protoIE. The further back in time you go, the more similar they were. So no, no Albanian-Greek family, just similar languages at that time, because they had a common origin not long before then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I have two questions that i can not give personally an logical answer.
    We know who were the ancient Greeks and the, glorious civilization produced by them. I don't think is necessary to repeat who were the Ancient Greeks.
    Meanwhile we have an family of the Latin languages, we don't have an family of Greek languages. Why?
    And second. From one side, the barbarian, primitive and illiterate Illyrians ruled the Roman Empire with a long line of Emperors, continuing to remain pagans. Meanwhile from the other side, the glorious ancient Greeks were at the bottom of the piramide of the power of the Roman Empire and embraced an proletarian religion like Christianity. Why?

    Laberia
    the termination Language/Dialect has not clear limits
    so a dialect can be a language, and the oposite.

    NO Greek and Albanian are alone Languages,

    that means to degree of indipendence from other IE
    they are a Family

    Now I do not want to enter more to that,
    There is no need,
    NONE OF US HERE IS A LINGUISTIC SEARCHER TO EXPAND or dig deeper.
    Except maybe Ygorcs or Moesan, I notice they understand and know enough

    Family can split to daughter Family or have daughters etc

    So Concerning Balt languages, are a family, Slavic languages also,
    nut Maybe both sprung from Balto-Slavic, and possible that was a Yamnaa language,

    well Greek until today is alone,
    It had daughter dialects or languages, Like Dorian Ionian etc
    maybe had a sister the Brygian, I say maybe, that levels up to Greco-brygian Family,

    Albanian is also an alone language,
    All Albanian , every were i read, always repeat 2 dialects,
    But is also Alone, a family of its own,

    its is not so difficult to understand that.

    The termination Illyrians at Roman empire Dynasty and later East Roman Empire
    might yes, and might not mean Illyrian by Blood,
    but a geogrphical term,
    for example if remember correct when the times needed
    they wanted a Flavian to continue the dynasty,
    and they found him somewhere in Albania,
    but from Roman descent a Flavian, not Illyrian descent,

    it is rather connected with legio 4 Flavia Felix
    and its settlement from Istros and Dalmatia to N Greece
    with base around Nis and West Balkans

    searching the history of Roman legions at balkans
    understanding the powers they had, even in producing money for emperror
    and considering the power of Preatorians to elect emperror sometimes
    you understand enough, even why there are Aromani in that area, and not in the next area.

    all claiming Illyrian descent had a common name Flavian
    and all were connected with Legio 4 Flavia

    if they were Illyrians by blood, or not
    genetics will say so, NOT me

    personally I believe is a geographical term
    cause that legio had base Illiricum

    I repeat personally,
    so not be misunderstood,

    YES and NO

    Greeks were used in cities and small Alliances, and always divided
    The mistake of King of Pergamos, to invite the Romans
    as also the descenting line of Ptolemeans in Egypt and Cleopatra
    were catalytic for the future of Greeks.
    The last Greek was Aryan or Iranian in blood, but represent all the Greek of the area, and spirit,
    family accepted by Alexander.
    MITHRIDATES, in fact Pontos is the last that fall to Ottomans, not only Romans
    Greeks ended up to be the high educated slaves or personel at Roman villas
    or Fled East away from Romans, (compare the fled to West att end of Byzantine)
    After 313 there was a huge run/hunt against the remaining FREE Greeks either as philosophers, either as nobility by Christians
    That was the final hit, (scythopolis)
    After that
    the 'Gentile' the 'Nobility' should be Roman and Christian no matter Greek Thracian Illyrian Anatolian Caucasian/iberian etc
    Non Roman/Christian = Pagan/Greek meaning Death
    it needed centuries to regain back the older ID,
    the 4rth crusade awaked the old Id's
    Notice the first Albanian written text, is a clergy/religious signature, around 1253 AD (maybe few decades wrong, my memory is full of data)
    whikle the first full description is around 1460 (kastrioti times) describing baptism (also clergy)
    meaning after 4rth crusade,

    understanding the above,
    is the biggest tool to understand Byzantine history, and believes,
    is the tool to understand even Kastrioti and Vallavan.
    pure clear and transparent history.

    No alliens, no global conspiracy, no political fanfara

    just naked history

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I didn't imply that they are "territorial family" languages, I implied they would have comparable similarity to what same-family languages have today because IE had not produced very different branches yet, just as Slavic has similar branches now.
    Do you know what does IE stand for? There is no such thing as just IE alone, but has to be Indo-European languages/family. You probably meant PIE the proto-mother language, and if so that one singe mother-language split in many language families as soon as it splits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    What Albanians or Greeks claim today is irrelevant.
    Well, yes it's irrelevant as long as doesn't involve the same ancestors, but the question is known to have been become political because there is not any consensus about the origin of two nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    We don't have to agree on where it comes from as long as we agree, as all serious scholarship does, that it comes from a paleo-Balkan IE language.
    Actually we do, because we have to name the daughter of that paleo balkanic language, among the languages in your list: Ionian, Doric, Epirotic or an Illyrian dialect? As long as you dont name it, your theory doesn't produce any concrete result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    proto-Albanian is a sister language to all early IE languages including protoGreek, and it was probably relatively similar to early Greek dialects like Mycenean.
    We dont know this, actually we have absolutely no proof to make a connection of Albanian to Mycanean language.

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    We dont know this, actually we have absolutely no proof to make that connection of Albanian to Mycanean language.
    I'm not saying I subscribe to that idea, but saying there is no connection is not true.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I'm not saying I subscribe to that idea, but saying there is no connection is not true.



    We are talking lingustically here.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Johane, the biggest mistake we can make, is to create theories with hybrid ideas, just to please the others. By saying this, I don't mean we should be disrespectful toward other cultures, but not to acomodate them in something that our ancestors claim as ours. If Scanderbeg claimed old Epirotans, Pyrrhus, Alexander the Great and their followers as Albanians, we have no reason to scrutinize his claim in search for any discrepancy. If John Musachi claims his name comes from Old Molossians and they were established in Epirus by Pyrrhus Neoptolemos Achiles' son and from his mother side he was Dukagjini, a nobility descended from Trojans, we have no reason to verify the truthness of this claim. We have no reason to verify Pietro Bogdani, the Macedonian-Albanian Archbishop, if he was telling the truth or not, about all these aforementioned stories. We have several confirmations from several Medieval Albanian intelectuals who insist on the same stories. This is our heritage which we shouldn't doubt. It's a big mistake if we do so. Not only we shouln't doubt anything inherited from our ancestors, but we should voice it. The others will try to shut us off but they will fail, because nothing can stop a person or a nation to be proud of his heritage. We will voice our heritage, not somebody else's, and we have to be proud for whatever it might be, even the most humble and unimpresive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Actually we do, because we have to name the daughter of that paleo balkanic language, among the languages in your list: Ionian, Doric, Epirotic or an Illyrian dialect? As long as you dont name it, your theory doesn't produce any concrete result.
    I'm saying all these languages were related to each other since all came from protoIE. So it doesn't matter which language Albanian came from, it is still related to all Greek dialects because they also come from protoIE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    We don't know this, actually we have absolutely no proof to make a connection of Albanian to Mycanean language.
    Again, they came from protoIE so they do have a connection. What's so difficult to understand about that? That part of my theory is actually quite straightforward and I thought not disputable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I'm not saying I subscribe to that idea, but saying there is no connection is not true.




    Derite

    Do not mix genetics,

    The greek genetics and the greek language is another story
    The Albanian genetics and Albanian language is another story


    THE THREAD IS A LINGUISTIC THREAD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Laberia
    the termination Language/Dialect has not clear limits
    so a dialect can be a language, and the oposite.

    NO Greek and Albanian are alone Languages,

    that means to degree of indipendence from other IE
    they are a Family

    Now I do not want to enter more to that,
    There is no need,
    NONE OF US HERE IS A LINGUISTIC SEARCHER TO EXPAND or dig deeper.
    Except maybe Ygorcs or Moesan, I notice they understand and know enough

    Family can split to daughter Family or have daughters etc

    So Concerning Balt languages, are a family, Slavic languages also,
    nut Maybe both sprung from Balto-Slavic, and possible that was a Yamnaa language,

    well Greek until today is alone,
    It had daughter dialects or languages, Like Dorian Ionian etc
    maybe had a sister the Brygian, I say maybe, that levels up to Greco-brygian Family,

    Albanian is also an alone language,
    All Albanian , every were i read, always repeat 2 dialects,
    But is also Alone, a family of its own,

    its is not so difficult to understand that.

    The termination Illyrians at Roman empire Dynasty and later East Roman Empire
    might yes, and might not mean Illyrian by Blood,
    but a geogrphical term,
    for example if remember correct when the times needed
    they wanted a Flavian to continue the dynasty,
    and they found him somewhere in Albania,
    but from Roman descent a Flavian, not Illyrian descent,

    it is rather connected with legio 4 Flavia Felix
    and its settlement from Istros and Dalmatia to N Greece
    with base around Nis and West Balkans

    searching the history of Roman legions at balkans
    understanding the powers they had, even in producing money for emperror
    and considering the power of Preatorians to elect emperror sometimes
    you understand enough, even why there are Aromani in that area, and not in the next area.

    all claiming Illyrian descent had a common name Flavian
    and all were connected with Legio 4 Flavia

    if they were Illyrians by blood, or not
    genetics will say so, NOT me

    personally I believe is a geographical term
    cause that legio had base Illiricum

    I repeat personally,
    so not be misunderstood,

    YES and NO

    Greeks were used in cities and small Alliances, and always divided
    The mistake of King of Pergamos, to invite the Romans
    as also the descenting line of Ptolemeans in Egypt and Cleopatra
    were catalytic for the future of Greeks.
    The last Greek was Aryan or Iranian in blood, but represent all the Greek of the area, and spirit,
    family accepted by Alexander.
    MITHRIDATES, in fact Pontos is the last that fall to Ottomans, not only Romans
    Greeks ended up to be the high educated slaves or personel at Roman villas
    or Fled East away from Romans, (compare the fled to West att end of Byzantine)
    After 313 there was a huge run/hunt against the remaining FREE Greeks either as philosophers, either as nobility by Christians
    That was the final hit, (scythopolis)
    After that
    the 'Gentile' the 'Nobility' should be Roman and Christian no matter Greek Thracian Illyrian Anatolian Caucasian/iberian etc
    Non Roman/Christian = Pagan/Greek meaning Death
    it needed centuries to regain back the older ID,
    the 4rth crusade awaked the old Id's
    Notice the first Albanian written text, is a clergy/religious signature, around 1253 AD (maybe few decades wrong, my memory is full of data)
    whikle the first full description is around 1460 (kastrioti times) describing baptism (also clergy)
    meaning after 4rth crusade,

    understanding the above,
    is the biggest tool to understand Byzantine history, and believes,
    is the tool to understand even Kastrioti and Vallavan.
    pure clear and transparent history.

    No alliens, no global conspiracy, no political fanfara

    just naked history
    You have to understand a simple thing. There is no sane person in this forum who take seriously what you post here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I'm saying all these languages were related to each other since all came from protoIE. So it doesn't matter which language Albanian came from, it is still related to all Greek dialects because they also come from protoIE.Again, they came from protoIE so they do have a connection. What's so difficult to understand about that? That part of my theory is actually quite straightforward and I thought not disputable.
    That is correct,the IE themes/roots in words should be the same in some daughters,But the last 6 millenias IEan are so wide and some languages not conservativeso they change aspirations or create new vocabulary,and the new tchnologies and products,in a world running faster thanlanguages,then we have the loans,a good example is words like mouse computermaybe they have IE roots,but are loans,

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    You have to understand a simple thing. There is no sane person in this forum who take seriously what you post here.

    In Fact all,

    Everybody knows European and Global history,
    Pure and clear history,

    what I write is pure history,
    and everybody in the forum
    who finished at least high school
    surely knows and understand the above,

    for those who Don't
    Sorry
    Truth is bitter,

    until Phocas all are Flavians,
    the next Herakleios just carries and abbandon that,

    if Flavian was a title, or wider family continuity
    Search Anastasios of Dyrrachium a Flavius

    but After herakleios and his dynasty, Flavian is no more in use,

    and after the 20 years anarchy
    tottaly different


    FINDF FOR BURRUN DALMATIA
    AND NIS ROMAN CAMPS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I'm saying all these languages were related to each other since all came from protoIE. So it doesn't matter which language Albanian came from, it is still related to all Greek dialects because they also come from protoIE.
    History is about the names, there is no history without names, and when it comes to Albanians all sources I mean every single objective independent written source for the last 1000 years points to EPIROTES.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Again, they came from protoIE so they do have a connection. What's so difficult to understand about that? That part of my theory is actually quite straightforward and I thought not disputable.
    PIE language, is part of a modern scientific hypothesis, which I respect, but doesn't provide any clue about historical events and people, AFTER the presumed split. We are talking about NAMES which are believed to be historical, and to find the possible real connection we might need a little bit more than just a product of a modern scientific hypothesis. But of course, the initial connection is guaranteed, but equally between every single language, and not just between Albanian and Greek. But I agree with you, that the connection between Greek and Albanian is very strong. However we don't possess the Albanian language written back in time. From very few examples indirectly provided from ancient authors the connection proves to be solid: Example:
    Strabo records that the Thesprotians, Molossians, and Macedonians referred to old men as pelioi and old women as peliai
    which are very similar to the respective Albanian and Greek words. Albanian even guarantees the sound preservation but we can discuss this later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    Johane, the biggest mistake we can make, is to create theories with hybrid ideas, just to please the others. By saying this, I don't mean we should be disrespectful toward other cultures, but not to acomodate them in something that our ancestors claim as ours. If Scanderbeg claimed old Epirotans, Pyrrhus, Alexander the Great and their followers as Albanians, we have no reason to scrutinize his claim in search for any discrepancy. If John Musachi claims his name comes from Old Molossians and they were established in Epirus by Pyrrhus Neoptolemos Achiles' son and from his mother side he was Dukagjini, a nobility descended from Trojans, we have no reason to verify the truthness of this claim. We have no reason to verify Pietro Bogdani, the Macedonian-Albanian Archbishop, if he was telling the truth or not, about all these aforementioned stories. We have several confirmations from several Medieval Albanian intelectuals who insist on the same stories. This is our heritage which we shouldn't doubt. It's a big mistake if we do so. Not only we shouln't doubt anything inherited from our ancestors, but we should voice it. The others will try to shut us off but they will fail, because nothing can stop a person or a nation to be proud of his heritage. We will voice our heritage, not somebody else's, and we have to be proud for whatever it might be, even the most humble and unimpresive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus10 View Post
    History is about the names, there is no history without names, and when it comes to Albanians all sources I mean every single objective independent written source for the last 1000 years points to EPIROTES.



    PIE language, is part of a modern scientific hypothesis, which I respect, but doesn't provide any clue about historical events and people, AFTER the presumed split. We are talking about NAMES which are believed to be historical, and to find the possible real connection we might need a little bit more than just a product of a modern scientific hypothesis. But of course, the initial connection is guaranteed, but equally between every single language, and not just between Albanian and Greek. But I agree with you, that the connection between Greek and Albanian is very strong. However we don't possess the Albanian language written back in time. From very few examples indirectly provided from ancient authors the connection proves to be solid: Example:
    Strabo records that the Thesprotians, Molossians, and Macedonians referred to old men as pelioi and old women as peliai
    which are very similar to the respective Albanian and Greek words. Albanian even guarantees the sound preservation but we can discuss this later.

    WHAT KIND OF LINGUISTIC SCIENCE IS THAT?

    AND WHATKIND OF SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION IS THE FIRST QUOTE

    AS FOR STRABO
    GEOGRAPHICA/GEOGRAPHY

    BOOK 7
    CHAPTER 5 ILLYRIAN AND PANNONIA
    CHAPTER 7 EPIROTES

    who wants truth about what Strabo says
    read the above

    ok I just pass the book 11
    we all know why,

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    This thread is now closed. It is, once again, a t-roll thread based on absolutely no respected science, in this case linguistics, at all, and as all such threads do, descended into ridiculousness.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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