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Thread: Most Likely Periods of Entry of R1b-U152 into the British Isles

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    Question Most Likely Periods of Entry of R1b-U152 into the British Isles

    I am a part of the Z36 branch of the R1b-U152 Y-Haplogroup, and I'm 99% certain that my paternal ancestry is British in nature. As U152's prevalence in the British Isles is markedly lower than that of S21's or L21's, I've grown curious at how exactly my paternal family would have gotten to Britain, and more so when. I've been thinking that the most likely scenario would have been that my paternal ancestor was a Frenchman that came over during the Norman period. My surname is most likely French in origin, though there are theories that it could also be Welsh. Are there any other historical periods that you think are more likely than this?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    it is possible roman origin

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    if i look at this map here:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...R1b-S28-(U152)
    the first thing that comes to my mind is that it was spread by romans or that romans contributed to its spreading. the concentration in southern france would correlate with the settlement of roman veterans. the hot spot in southern portugal and galicia would also correlate with the italian admixture map.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/autos....shtml#Italian
    but i think this discussion was already in another thread with no real results. it was also argued that it might come from hallstatt celts who supposedly originated in central europe. that high concentration in southern germans, switzerland might be an indication.

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    I am strictly an amateur and relatively illiterate in the language of genetics. So take what I say with several grains of salt . . .

    However, it seems that the Davenport line of Cheshire England, tracing making to a certain Ormus of Normandy, is R1b-S1480 (descending from U152). I cannot post a link, but there is a website called DavenportDna devoted to this question.

    According to the phylogenetic map here on Eupedia, the S1480 subclade is found in Italy, which makes me wonder if perhaps Ormus was descended from Roman colonists of Northern Gaul on his Y-line

    And yet I have seen Maciamo state elsewhere that a lot of Scandinavian R1b-U152 is descended from the Z142 subclade (which sits between U152 and S1480). Again, I cannot post links, but see Maciamo's comments on this thread "R1b-S28-u152-in-Sicily-A-product-of-Romans-Lombards-or-Normans"

    Therefore, the Davenports could just as likely be Scandinavian as Gallo-Roman on the Y-line -- at least based on my understanding of what I have read here!!!

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    Hallstatt Celts, absolutely no doubt.

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    R-U152 Connection to Davenport Line

    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    I am strictly an amateur and relatively illiterate in the language of genetics. So take what I say with several grains of salt . . .

    However, it seems that the Davenport line of Cheshire England, tracing making to a certain Ormus of Normandy, is R1b-S1480 (descending from U152). I cannot post a link, but there is a website called DavenportDna devoted to this question.

    According to the phylogenetic map here on Eupedia, the S1480 subclade is found in Italy, which makes me wonder if perhaps Ormus was descended from Roman colonists of Northern Gaul on his Y-line

    And yet I have seen Maciamo state elsewhere that a lot of Scandinavian R1b-U152 is descended from the Z142 subclade (which sits between U152 and S1480). Again, I cannot post links, but see Maciamo's comments on this thread "R1b-S28-u152-in-Sicily-A-product-of-Romans-Lombards-or-Normans"

    Therefore, the Davenports could just as likely be Scandinavian as Gallo-Roman on the Y-line -- at least based on my understanding of what I have read here!!!
    I just received my ancestry DNA today and my paternal line is R-U152. I think your information about the Davenport line in Cheshire is right on the money. I have done extensive research of my surname, Lawton. The name originates in Cheshire as "Lauton" about 100 years after the Norman Invasion. In fact, six generations after origination (during the mid-1300s) the line apparently terminated with a female heir, Agnes de Lauton. However, she married into the Davenport line to a Thomas, son of Jordan de Davenport, who was likely the great-grandson of Vivian, Lord of Davenport. As Agnes de Lauton was landed and probably of higher status, Thomas de Davenport assumed the Lauton name! If the Davenports are indeed in the R-U152 haplogroup, and this haplogroup has a rather small footprint today in Great Britain, then this is a fairly clear indication to me of an unbroken lineage from the Davenport line through the modern Lawton family. But I am neither a geneticist. I would think it quite likely that the Davenport and Lawton lineages came to Britain through Normandy, as this makes sense with both families being granted estates relatively soon after the Invasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealmofLawton View Post
    I just received my ancestry DNA today and my paternal line is R-U152. I think your information about the Davenport line in Cheshire is right on the money. I have done extensive research of my surname, Lawton. The name originates in Cheshire as "Lauton" about 100 years after the Norman Invasion. In fact, six generations after origination (during the mid-1300s) the line apparently terminated with a female heir, Agnes de Lauton. However, she married into the Davenport line to a Thomas, son of Jordan de Davenport, who was likely the great-grandson of Vivian, Lord of Davenport. As Agnes de Lauton was landed and probably of higher status, Thomas de Davenport assumed the Lauton name! If the Davenports are indeed in the R-U152 haplogroup, and this haplogroup has a rather small footprint today in Great Britain, then this is a fairly clear indication to me of an unbroken lineage from the Davenport line through the modern Lawton family. But I am neither a geneticist. I would think it quite likely that the Davenport and Lawton lineages came to Britain through Normandy, as this makes sense with both families being granted estates relatively soon after the Invasion.
    There are two different known U152 Davenport lines, one being the U152-L2-S1480 line referenced above, and the other being a branch of U152-Z56. Given your family's distinctive surname connection, it would be incredibly useful to know whether you match either of these lines. Both S1480 and Z56 can be tested quite inexpensively at YSeq, but the best value would be YSeq's U152 superpanel, which would position you on the U152 tree even if you weren't a match to either.

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