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Thread: Italian election results 2018

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is another one where I don't think we'll ever agree, Bicicleur.
    If the EU and particularly the Schengen countries mean open internal borders, then there should be no problem with these migrants moving to other countries. If someone doesn't pay the train fare, I'm sure they would walk.
    No, not all the migrants had family in France, or Belgium or the Netherlands, but the ones who don't would have to be mentally deficient not to realize that in a country with high unemployment of its own and very paltry "benefits" by northern European standards, they'd do better elsewhere.
    What you're basically proposing is that the countries on the front line because of geography, like Italy and Greece, should shoulder the entire burden of these people. The only option that would leave to Italy would be to let them all drown, as I said above. That isn't really an option for any civilized country.
    This is the solution of the European Union? Is the Union only meant to benefit Northern Europe and to hell with Southern Europe? This is precisely the kind of problem that the Union should solve, but certain countries just want to use it to their benefit, with no costs whatsoever. Most European countries always want someone else to deal with their problems. Look at the Balkan mess. They should have handled that: it's their continent. Did they? No.
    Given that's the case, and it's really, under the phony verbiage, each country for itself, then tear up the documents, as I've advocated for a long time, and make sure we drop the Euro too. Let national currencies fall to their own levels. We'll see how countries like Germany like it when suddenly our goods are cheaper.
    I'm sorry Angela, but controll on the outer borders was part of the Schengen deal.
    You can't have open inner borders without controlling the outer borders. Otherwise there is no deal for open inner borders.
    That is written explicitly in the EU deal about inner borders, and when France closed the border at Ventimiglia they had every right to do so, it was not a violation of the treaty.
    I don't say Italy shouldn't get any help from the EU at their outer borders, but the first step is to at least play by the rules.
    You can't have the benefits if you don't fulfill your duties yourself.
    You know very well that in the mean time there are deals between the EU and African countries now to get some grip of the stream of so-called refugees, allthough these deals are sometimes hypocrit.
    And the EU pays part of the costs of controll at the Italian outer borders.
    And is I told, northern countries have taken up far more of them than Italy.
    I think you're still to quick to accept the stories of some Italian politicians and so-called humanitarian organisations.
    You know many humanitarian organisations all of a sudden stopped their operations in the Mediterranean when Italy requested them to sign a charter or else they wouldn't be allowed to enter Italian harbours any more. The charter enabled the Italian authorities to controll the actions of these organisations. They didn't sign the charter. It's obvious they had some things to hide. They were enabling illegal smuggling operations for so-called refugees.
    Still many refugees drown in the Mediterranean, but ironically, there are a lot less now then when all these 'refugee operations' were in place.
    The refugee operations simply invited human traffickers to take ever higher risks.
    Things have changed at the border now, but there is still a lot of hypocrisy, and it should have happened much earlier.

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    @ bicicleur

    The Shoengen treaty was designed what time
    and for whom?

    immigrant, Illegal immigrant, refuggee is not the same,

    and to put another question

    DOES SHOENGEN TREATY WHICH HELP IN SECURE EUROPEAN INNER BORDERS
    AND FIGHTS CRIMINALITY,
    ALLOW NGO FROM OTHER EU COUNTRIES TO ACT IN OTHER EU COUNTRIES?

    I mean

    1. if shoegen treaty etc etc CONCERN OF REFUGGEES???
    DOES IT PUT REFUGGEES WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS TO THE SAME STATUS?

    2. DOES SHHOEGEN TREATY STOP ACTIVISM OF CERTAIN NON GOVERMENTAL ORGANISATIONS?

    I mean why we claim Shoegen treaty when it is time to push to inner and north EU immigrants and refuggees
    and not when NGOs from inner and North EU make difficult the Frontex, or country border police, or army, job and work?

    Why some N and C Europeans even hire boats and ships, and act against police,
    and the same time their countries claim Shoegen treaty?

    I think we must reconsider what EU we want,
    and how EU must work,

    IF I remember correct at INTERNATIONAL MEDICINE LAWS
    ALL ILLEGAL AND REFUGGEE MUST STAY AT CARANTINE FOR 30 DAYS
    especially if not having pappers
    maybe I am wrong to that,
    but was at Elis island
    so why this does not happened and NGOs go and gather them and hide them etc etc
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Why would anyone want fascism? I'm not a political science guy so forgive me if I'm wrong but why would
    you want to spend every waking moment being kicked around by some power freak shouting orders? Being told not to live freely and happily?
    Because the current political class is unable to solve the problems facing today's society. People are tired. And so arrive this guys with radical solution promissing to put order. But they want something in exchange.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The Lega Nord (Original Name: Lega Nord per l'Indipendenza della Padania) until recently has called all Italians from Rome to Sicily all the Insults in the Italian Language.
    Now they Pretend that they’ve changed. I don’t think so.
    We don’t Forget
    The LN was founded in 1991 as a federation of several regional parties of Northern and Central Italy, notably including Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana.

    so each of these 6 parties can withdraw from the lega and go it alone , they are not bound to stay
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The LN was founded in 1991 as a federation of several regional parties of Northern and Central Italy, notably including Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana.

    so each of these 6 parties can withdraw from the lega and go it alone , they are not bound to stay
    All this Parties, share a common dislike of the Southern Italians, and they all sing Kum Ba Yah together.
    Family Sing a Long: Kumbayah my Lord
    https://youtu.be/Ta5HnYtWBIs
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    All this Parties, share a common dislike of the Southern Italians, and they all sing Kum Ba Yah together.
    Family Sing a Long: Kumbayah my Lord
    https://youtu.be/Ta5HnYtWBIs
    Well i followed the Liga Veneta ...........I was not going to follow the nutter berlosconi , nor the nutter Bossi ( who by the way has a sicilian wife ) or the socialist/communists of The PD or 5star , nor the fascists of fratelli party

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    Italian election results 2018

    @Sile Here in the US, when someone asks me where I’m from originally , I say Italy and that’s It, and I only get specific if they ask where in Italy I come From.
    What do you say when someone ask You in Australia? Just a Curiosity.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Wall Street Journal has a piece on it. Does the platform sound familiar? :) The racism against other Italians is now missing, of course.

    "Such sentiment helps explain how the League, formerly called the Northern League, has returned from the political wilderness with an “Italians first” message that resonated strongly in the party’s wealthy northern strongholds, but also in Italy’s center and even in the deep south—a region the party once vilified.Unease over immigration, along with promises to slash taxes and lower the retirement age, powered the League to its best-ever performance in a national election, giving it nearly 18% of the popular vote and tripling its parliamentary representation.
    That success puts the League at the helm of its conservative coalition, which drew 37% of the popular votes. If the alliance drafts enough support from other parties to form a government, party leader Matteo Salvini could claim the premier’s seat."

    "Mr. Salvini’s nativist message echoes that of other European nationalists such as France’s Marine Le Pen and Hungary’s Viktor Orban. For millions of Italian voters, it fell on open ears.

    The face of Italy has changed enormously in recent years. The country is on the front lines of Europe’s migration crisis. Nearly 750,000 seaborne migrants have landed on its shores since 2011, hundreds of thousands of whom have swelled Italy’s population of undocumented migrants.
    That influx is just a part of a generalized rise in Italy’s foreign population, which has tripled since 2000. Especially in recent years, those newcomers have landed in a country with a sluggish economy and sharply rising poverty.



    Mr. Salvini’s anti-immigration rhetoric dovetailed with his skepticism about the European Union, which many Italians say abandoned them in the face of huge waves of arrivals. Mr. Salvini calls the single currency a mistake destined to disappear, and the League has promised to rewrite EU treaties on migration, monetary policy and other issues that it says penalize Italy."

    There you have the conundrum for people like me. I agree with a lot of what he says, but is it a case of a wolf in sheep's clothing? When will the divisive rhetoric start? Is this just a ploy to get power? How does he plan to fix the immigrant crisis?

    Has it really renounced Padanian nationalism and anti-southern Italian rhetoric?

    See:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=pW...erroni&f=false

    https://ir.library.illinoisstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1262&context=etd


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padania




    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Wall Street Journal has a piece on it. Does the platform sound familiar? :) The racism against other Italians is now missing, of course.

    Beppe Grillo, Five Star Movement's leader four years ago

    Grillo: “L’Italia non ha più ragione di rimanere unita. Sì a macroregioni”

    "Sul suo blog il leader M5s definisce l’Italia "un’arlecchinata di popoli, di lingue, di tradizioni che non ha più alcuna ragione di stare insieme". Salvini: "Non vorrei che inseguisse la Lega" ma se da lui non ci saranno "solo parole sarà una battaglia comune"


    https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/201...egioni/906954/

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    If anyone thinks Italian politics is a mess, just look at these guys. You need a cheat sheet to keep it straight.

    See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Veneta
    "The LV, which combines Venetian nationalism and support for fiscal federalism, was the first party of its kind in Northern Italy, predating Umberto Bossi's Lega Lombarda by four years, and was a founding member of Lega Nord in 1991. Since then, Liga Veneta has been a "national" section of the federal party, thus retaining legal status and some autonomy."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Veneta_Repubblica

    "In 1998 Comencini broke with Umberto Bossi in the name of Venetian nationalism as opposed to Padanian nationalism.[4][5][6] Although he commanded a majority of Liga Veneta's regional councillors (7 out of 9: Ettore Beggiato, Alessio Morosin, Mariangelo Foggiato, Alberto Poirè, Michele Munaretto, Franco Roccon and himself), Comencini was not supported by the majority of Liga Veneta who supported Gian Paolo Gobbo instead. He thus resigned as national secretary and formed a new party called Liga Veneta Repubblica[7][8] (later Veneti d'Europa, Liga Fronte Veneto and finally, again, Liga Veneta Repubblica)."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrizio_Comencini

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Beppe Grillo, Five Star Movement's leader four years ago

    Grillo: “L’Italia non ha più ragione di rimanere unita. Sì a macroregioni”

    "Sul suo blog il leader M5s definisce l’Italia "un’arlecchinata di popoli, di lingue, di tradizioni che non ha più alcuna ragione di stare insieme". Salvini: "Non vorrei che inseguisse la Lega" ma se da lui non ci saranno "solo parole sarà una battaglia comune"


    https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/201...egioni/906954/
    Great. Italy can devolve into a series of "macroregions" in an age of resurgent nationalism and get kicked around by everybody. Perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Sile Here in the US, when someone asks me where I’m from originally , I say Italy and that’s It, and I only get specific if they ask where in Italy I come From.
    What do you say when someone ask You in Australia? Just a Curiosity.
    I say Australian , born and bred .........but have dual citizenship due to the fact my parents where still Italians when I was born in Australia..............my sister born after my parents became Australians does not have dual citizenship and cannot qualify for any italian citizenship unless she lives in italy for 3 years..........I saw the italian embassy in November 2017 about this issue...........all my sons can become instant italian citizens if they sign all the paperwork required ...................there is a major difference on the ease or not of becoming an italian

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    Italian election results 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I say Australian , born and bred .........but have dual citizenship due to the fact my parents where still Italians when I was born in Australia..............my sister born after my parents became Australians does not have dual citizenship and cannot qualify for any italian citizenship unless she lives in italy for 3 years..........I saw the italian embassy in November 2017 about this issue...........all my sons can become instant italian citizens if they sign all the paperwork required ...................there is a major difference on the ease or not of becoming an italian
    I notice your family has defined itself as Alpine Illyrian. If that’s the case, how should I define myself, knowing that most Pugliesi have some Ancient Illyrian Ancestry?
    A Puglirico, or an Apennine Illyrian?
    I’m Italian, and so are You.
    Good for us.
    We’re also Related by haplogroup, Cugino.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I notice your family has defined itself as Alpine Illyrian. If that’s the case, how should I define myself, knowing that most Pugliesi have some Ancient Illyrian Ancestry?
    A Puglirico, or an Apennine Illyrian?
    I’m Italian, and so are You.
    Good for us.
    We’re also Related by haplogroup, Cugino.
    not me, thats my sons idea

    i just classify myself as alpinoid based on hundreds of years of historical registries..........veneto and trentino

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    @ bicicleur
    The Shoengen treaty was designed what time
    and for whom?
    immigrant, Illegal immigrant, refuggee is not the same,
    and to put another question
    DOES SHOENGEN TREATY WHICH HELP IN SECURE EUROPEAN INNER BORDERS
    AND FIGHTS CRIMINALITY,
    ALLOW NGO FROM OTHER EU COUNTRIES TO ACT IN OTHER EU COUNTRIES?
    I mean
    1. if shoegen treaty etc etc CONCERN OF REFUGGEES???
    DOES IT PUT REFUGGEES WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS TO THE SAME STATUS?
    2. DOES SHHOEGEN TREATY STOP ACTIVISM OF CERTAIN NON GOVERMENTAL ORGANISATIONS?
    I mean why we claim Shoegen treaty when it is time to push to inner and north EU immigrants and refuggees
    and not when NGOs from inner and North EU make difficult the Frontex, or country border police, or army, job and work?

    Why some N and C Europeans even hire boats and ships, and act against police,
    and the same time their countries claim Shoegen treaty?
    I think we must reconsider what EU we want,
    and how EU must work,
    IF I remember correct at INTERNATIONAL MEDICINE LAWS
    ALL ILLEGAL AND REFUGGEE MUST STAY AT CARANTINE FOR 30 DAYS
    especially if not having pappers
    maybe I am wrong to that,
    but was at Elis island
    so why this does not happened and NGOs go and gather them and hide them etc etc
    the Schengen treaty allows free traffic across the inner borders, without any distinction
    someone entering Schengen is supposed to be checked at the outer borders

    NGO's are independent from governments, allthough some receive subsidies
    they are supposed to follow the law and the rules
    their official purpose is mostly humanitarian
    but appearantly many of them are infested with certain ideologies and don't follow the rules
    the local authorities should be firm and impose the rules and the law upon them
    that is what Italy finally did when they demanded those NGO's to sign a charter
    all NGO's backed off and since then traffic and drownings have diminished dramatically

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Schengen treaty allows free traffic across the inner borders, without any distinction
    someone entering Schengen is supposed to be checked at the outer borders

    NGO's are independent from governments, allthough some receive subsidies
    they are supposed to follow the law and the rules
    their official purpose is mostly humanitarian
    but appearantly many of them are infested with certain ideologies and don't follow the rules
    the local authorities should be firm and impose the rules and the law upon them
    that is what Italy finally did when they demanded those NGO's to sign a charter
    all NGO's backed off and since then traffic and drownings have diminished dramatically
    the treaty only allows registered europeans to travel from nation to nation and not illegals of non-europeans.............when i go to europe i have to produce my papers from nation to nation. so a nation like hungary or austria who prevent these illegals from entering their country are correct. italy needs to get their act together and not try to filter these illegals into their neighbours lands

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the treaty only allows registered europeans to travel from nation to nation and not illegals of non-europeans.............when i go to europe i have to produce my papers from nation to nation. so a nation like hungary or austria who prevent these illegals from entering their country are correct. italy needs to get their act together and not try to filter these illegals into their neighbours lands
    yes, you're right, but that is when you fly
    when you travel by car or train, it's very unlikely that you'll be checked
    you're supposed to be checked when you entered Schengen area, and if you're allowed in one of these countries, you're also in all others
    an illegal is supposed to be stopped when trying to enter Schengen

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, you're right, but that is when you fly
    when you travel by car or train, it's very unlikely that you'll be checked
    you're supposed to be checked when you entered Schengen area, and if you're allowed in one of these countries, you're also in all others
    an illegal is supposed to be stopped when trying to enter Schengen
    maybe I am wrong

    But isn't Schoegen also the treaty that if something happens,
    they send you back to the country of entrance?
    Isn't Shoegen treaty the one who testifies criminals not to be accepted in other EU country forcing them back,

    All Illegal and legal immigrants that spotted, arrested, found at a country
    automatically are send to the country of entrance.

    That is the problem and correct, the good and bad of Schoegen treaty.
    it is correct as concern EU citizens,
    but what about refuggees????
    are they considered criminals? or for them 'freedom' of Schoegen does not exist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    maybe I am wrong

    But isn't Schoegen also the treaty that if something happens,
    they send you back to the country of entrance?
    Isn't Shoegen treaty the one who testifies criminals not to be accepted in other EU country forcing them back,

    All Illegal and legal immigrants that spotted, arrested, found at a country
    automatically are send to the country of entrance.

    That is the problem and correct, the good and bad of Schoegen treaty.
    it is correct as concern EU citizens,
    but what about refuggees????
    are they considered criminals? or for them 'freedom' of Schoegen does not exist?
    I think you mix up Schengen with the Dublin agreement.
    If someone has applied for asylum in 1 EU country, he cannot apply again in another EU country, he'll be sent back to where he applied first.
    Also make a difference between asylum seekers and illegals.
    If someone enters the EU without permission or valid papers, he can apply for asaylum, but if he does not do that, he is an illegal.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I think you mix up Schengen with the Dublin agreement.
    If someone has applied for asylum in 1 EU country, he cannot apply again in another EU country, he'll be sent back to where he applied first.
    Also make a difference between asylum seekers and illegals.
    If someone enters the EU without permission or valid papers, he can apply for asaylum, but if he does not do that, he is an illegal.
    hmmm

    maybe I am confused.
    I must refresh my memories,

    Anyway the problem is this,

    someone that is caught for example in Sweden
    but entered Bulgaria,
    or claims that entered from Bulgaria
    what will happen to him

    1 if he is illegal immigrant
    2 if he is a refuggee that asked asylum in Bulgaria a) for Bulgaria b) for Sweden but in Bulgaria
    3 if he is a refuggee but did not ask asylum in Bulgaria
    4 if he is a declared migrant but traveled to find home/job otherwhere in EU

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