Italian election results 2018

It didn't and doesn't have that power. On the other hand, while buying them train tickets is wrong to the extent that happened, why should Italy prevent people from going to France, for example, if that's where they choose to go because they have family there, or Sweden if they think they'll get better benefits. Should they detain them by force, intern them indefinitely? If they do, is France going to reimburse Italy? I highly doubt it. Or maybe the Italian navy and merchant marines should just let them drown?
the EU has open internal borders, and the Schengen countries even more so
but there should be controll on the outer borders
that is part of the Schengen agreement
what Italy did was undermining this system
and they stimulated the bussiness of human trafficking
that they all have family in some northern European country is a made up story
all those immigrants have a story, but most of these appear to be made up
the northern countries took up many more immigrants than Italy
it's only when Italy couldn't send them through to the north any more that it started to be an issue in Italy too
as far as I understand it was a major issue during last elections
 
a US TV program stated yesterday, that Italy has the highest amount of people over the age of 60 in the world and needs their youth back to work.

and how is it going to do this? there are so many italians who emigrated. and they wont come back. one could actually assume that italians have a bit more empathy with immigrants since they are a people of economic emigration themselves. though i understand that a country that cant keep its own population inside can't care for these immigrants. but maybe you will have to take your youth from them.
 
Why would anyone want fascism? I'm not a political science guy so forgive me if I'm wrong but why would
you want to spend every waking moment being kicked around by some power freak shouting orders? Being told not to live freely and happily?

For decades of the first half of the twentieth century most of Europe lived under totalitarian systems of either the left or the right: Russia, Hungary, to some extent Poland, Italy, Spain, Germany. England had a nascent fascist party of its own, and there were many fascist sympathizers in France. After World War II, Russia expanded her system (although by force it has to be said), and we have Tito in the Balkans and Ceaucescu in Romania. Spain didn't get rid of Franco for decades. I just saw a recent poll that most Russians wish they could bring back the Soviet Union, and even so, in what's left of it, there's no western style democracy as we would understand it. That's just Europe.

This was by no means always imposed on people. Russia and Spain became totalitarian countries as the result of civil wars, but Germany elected Hitler.

A surprising number of people are willing to give up freedom of speech and press, sometimes freedom of religion, willing to live in a system where the state, controlled by an oligarchy of some sort, can in some systems tell you where to live, where to work and on and on, if they think they'll be economically better off and if you appeal to their nationalistic fantasies.

Sad, but true.
 
Thank you Angela! I don't get why people would want that.

Lol I got "Sad But True" from Metallica stuck in my head now
 
the EU has open internal borders, and the Schengen countries even more so
but there should be controll on the outer borders
that is part of the Schengen agreement
what Italy did was undermining this system
and they stimulated the bussiness of human trafficking
that they all have family in some northern European country is a made up story
all those immigrants have a story, but most of these appear to be made up
the northern countries took up many more immigrants than Italy
it's only when Italy couldn't send them through to the north any more that it started to be an issue in Italy too
as far as I understand it was a major issue during last elections

This is another one where I don't think we'll ever agree, Bicicleur.

If the EU and particularly the Schengen countries mean open internal borders, then there should be no problem with these migrants moving to other countries. If someone doesn't pay the train fare, I'm sure they would walk.

No, not all the migrants had family in France, or Belgium or the Netherlands, but the ones who don't would have to be mentally deficient not to realize that in a country with high unemployment of its own and very paltry "benefits" by northern European standards, they'd do better elsewhere.

What you're basically proposing is that the countries on the front line because of geography, like Italy and Greece, should shoulder the entire burden of these people. The only option that would leave to Italy would be to let them all drown, as I said above. That isn't really an option for any civilized country.

This is the solution of the European Union? Is the Union only meant to benefit Northern Europe and to hell with Southern Europe? This is precisely the kind of problem that the Union should solve, but certain countries just want to use it to their benefit, with no costs whatsoever. Most European countries always want someone else to deal with their problems. Look at the Balkan mess. They should have handled that: it's their continent. Did they? No.

Given that's the case, and it's really, under the phony verbiage, each country for itself, then tear up the documents, as I've advocated for a long time, and make sure we drop the Euro too. Let national currencies fall to their own levels. We'll see how countries like Germany like it when suddenly our goods are cheaper.
 
This is another one where I don't think we'll ever agree, Bicicleur.
If the EU and particularly the Schengen countries mean open internal borders, then there should be no problem with these migrants moving to other countries. If someone doesn't pay the train fare, I'm sure they would walk.
No, not all the migrants had family in France, or Belgium or the Netherlands, but the ones who don't would have to be mentally deficient not to realize that in a country with high unemployment of its own and very paltry "benefits" by northern European standards, they'd do better elsewhere.
What you're basically proposing is that the countries on the front line because of geography, like Italy and Greece, should shoulder the entire burden of these people. The only option that would leave to Italy would be to let them all drown, as I said above. That isn't really an option for any civilized country.
This is the solution of the European Union? Is the Union only meant to benefit Northern Europe and to hell with Southern Europe? This is precisely the kind of problem that the Union should solve, but certain countries just want to use it to their benefit, with no costs whatsoever. Most European countries always want someone else to deal with their problems. Look at the Balkan mess. They should have handled that: it's their continent. Did they? No.
Given that's the case, and it's really, under the phony verbiage, each country for itself, then tear up the documents, as I've advocated for a long time, and make sure we drop the Euro too. Let national currencies fall to their own levels. We'll see how countries like Germany like it when suddenly our goods are cheaper.
I'm sorry Angela, but controll on the outer borders was part of the Schengen deal.
You can't have open inner borders without controlling the outer borders. Otherwise there is no deal for open inner borders.
That is written explicitly in the EU deal about inner borders, and when France closed the border at Ventimiglia they had every right to do so, it was not a violation of the treaty.
I don't say Italy shouldn't get any help from the EU at their outer borders, but the first step is to at least play by the rules.
You can't have the benefits if you don't fulfill your duties yourself.
You know very well that in the mean time there are deals between the EU and African countries now to get some grip of the stream of so-called refugees, allthough these deals are sometimes hypocrit.
And the EU pays part of the costs of controll at the Italian outer borders.
And is I told, northern countries have taken up far more of them than Italy.
I think you're still to quick to accept the stories of some Italian politicians and so-called humanitarian organisations.
You know many humanitarian organisations all of a sudden stopped their operations in the Mediterranean when Italy requested them to sign a charter or else they wouldn't be allowed to enter Italian harbours any more. The charter enabled the Italian authorities to controll the actions of these organisations. They didn't sign the charter. It's obvious they had some things to hide. They were enabling illegal smuggling operations for so-called refugees.
Still many refugees drown in the Mediterranean, but ironically, there are a lot less now then when all these 'refugee operations' were in place.
The refugee operations simply invited human traffickers to take ever higher risks.
Things have changed at the border now, but there is still a lot of hypocrisy, and it should have happened much earlier.
 
@ bicicleur

The Shoengen treaty was designed what time
and for whom?

immigrant, Illegal immigrant, refuggee is not the same,

and to put another question

DOES SHOENGEN TREATY WHICH HELP IN SECURE EUROPEAN INNER BORDERS
AND FIGHTS CRIMINALITY,
ALLOW NGO FROM OTHER EU COUNTRIES TO ACT IN OTHER EU COUNTRIES?

I mean

1. if shoegen treaty etc etc CONCERN OF REFUGGEES???
DOES IT PUT REFUGGEES WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS TO THE SAME STATUS?

2. DOES SHHOEGEN TREATY STOP ACTIVISM OF CERTAIN NON GOVERMENTAL ORGANISATIONS?

I mean why we claim Shoegen treaty when it is time to push to inner and north EU immigrants and refuggees
and not when NGOs from inner and North EU make difficult the Frontex, or country border police, or army, job and work?

Why some N and C Europeans even hire boats and ships, and act against police,
and the same time their countries claim Shoegen treaty?

I think we must reconsider what EU we want,
and how EU must work,

IF I remember correct at INTERNATIONAL MEDICINE LAWS
ALL ILLEGAL AND REFUGGEE MUST STAY AT CARANTINE FOR 30 DAYS
especially if not having pappers
maybe I am wrong to that,
but was at Elis island
so why this does not happened and NGOs go and gather them and hide them etc etc
 
Why would anyone want fascism? I'm not a political science guy so forgive me if I'm wrong but why would
you want to spend every waking moment being kicked around by some power freak shouting orders? Being told not to live freely and happily?
Because the current political class is unable to solve the problems facing today's society. People are tired. And so arrive this guys with radical solution promissing to put order. But they want something in exchange.
 
The Lega Nord (Original Name: Lega Nord per l'Indipendenza della Padania) until recently has called all Italians from Rome to Sicily all the Insults in the Italian Language.
Now they Pretend that they’ve changed. I don’t think so.
We don’t Forget

The LN was founded in 1991 as a federation of several regional parties of Northern and Central Italy, notably including Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana.

so each of these 6 parties can withdraw from the lega and go it alone , they are not bound to stay
 
The LN was founded in 1991 as a federation of several regional parties of Northern and Central Italy, notably including Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana.

so each of these 6 parties can withdraw from the lega and go it alone , they are not bound to stay

All this Parties, share a common dislike of the Southern Italians, and they all sing Kum Ba Yah together.
Family Sing a Long: Kumbayah my Lord
https://youtu.be/Ta5HnYtWBIs
 
All this Parties, share a common dislike of the Southern Italians, and they all sing Kum Ba Yah together.
Family Sing a Long: Kumbayah my Lord
https://youtu.be/Ta5HnYtWBIs

Well i followed the Liga Veneta ...........I was not going to follow the nutter berlosconi , nor the nutter Bossi ( who by the way has a sicilian wife ) or the socialist/communists of The PD or 5star , nor the fascists of fratelli party
 
@Sile Here in the US, when someone asks me where I’m from originally , I say Italy and that’s It, and I only get specific if they ask where in Italy I come From.
What do you say when someone ask You in Australia? Just a Curiosity.
 
The Wall Street Journal has a piece on it. Does the platform sound familiar? :) The racism against other Italians is now missing, of course.

"Such sentiment helps explain how the League, formerly called the Northern League, has returned from the political wilderness with an “Italians first” message that resonated strongly in the party’s wealthy northern strongholds, but also in Italy’s center and even in the deep south—a region the party once vilified.Unease over immigration, along with promises to slash taxes and lower the retirement age, powered the League to its best-ever performance in a national election, giving it nearly 18% of the popular vote and tripling its parliamentary representation.
That success puts the League at the helm of its conservative coalition, which drew 37% of the popular votes. If the alliance drafts enough support from other parties to form a government, party leader Matteo Salvini could claim the premier’s seat."

"Mr. Salvini’s nativist message echoes that of other European nationalists such as France’s Marine Le Pen and Hungary’s Viktor Orban. For millions of Italian voters, it fell on open ears.

The face of Italy has changed enormously in recent years. The country is on the front lines of Europe’s migration crisis. Nearly 750,000 seaborne migrants have landed on its shores since 2011, hundreds of thousands of whom have swelled Italy’s population of undocumented migrants.
That influx is just a part of a generalized rise in Italy’s foreign population, which has tripled since 2000. Especially in recent years, those newcomers have landed in a country with a sluggish economy and sharply rising poverty.



Mr. Salvini’s anti-immigration rhetoric dovetailed with his skepticism about the European Union, which many Italians say abandoned them in the face of huge waves of arrivals. Mr. Salvini calls the single currency a mistake destined to disappear, and the League has promised to rewrite EU treaties on migration, monetary policy and other issues that it says penalize Italy."

There you have the conundrum for people like me. I agree with a lot of what he says, but is it a case of a wolf in sheep's clothing? When will the divisive rhetoric start? Is this just a ploy to get power? How does he plan to fix the immigrant crisis?

Has it really renounced Padanian nationalism and anti-southern Italian rhetoric?

See:
https://books.google.com/books?id=p...A#v=onepage&q=northern league terroni&f=false

https://ir.library.illinoisstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1262&context=etd


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padania


 
The Wall Street Journal has a piece on it. Does the platform sound familiar? :) The racism against other Italians is now missing, of course.


Beppe Grillo, Five Star Movement's leader four years ago

Grillo: “L’Italia non ha più ragione di rimanere unita. Sì a macroregioni”

"Sul suo blog il leader M5s definisce l’Italia "un’arlecchinata di popoli, di lingue, di tradizioni che non ha più alcuna ragione di stare insieme". Salvini: "Non vorrei che inseguisse la Lega" ma se da lui non ci saranno "solo parole sarà una battaglia comune"


https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/20...e-di-rimanere-unita-si-a-macroregioni/906954/
 
If anyone thinks Italian politics is a mess, just look at these guys. You need a cheat sheet to keep it straight.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Veneta
"The LV, which combines Venetian nationalism and support for fiscal federalism, was the first party of its kind in Northern Italy, predating Umberto Bossi's Lega Lombarda by four years, and was a founding member of Lega Nord in 1991. Since then, Liga Veneta has been a "national" section of the federal party, thus retaining legal status and some autonomy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Veneta_Repubblica

"In 1998 Comencini broke with Umberto Bossi in the name of Venetian nationalism as opposed to Padanian nationalism.[4][5][6] Although he commanded a majority of Liga Veneta's regional councillors (7 out of 9: Ettore Beggiato, Alessio Morosin, Mariangelo Foggiato, Alberto Poirè, Michele Munaretto, Franco Roccon and himself), Comencini was not supported by the majority of Liga Veneta who supported Gian Paolo Gobbo instead. He thus resigned as national secretary and formed a new party called Liga Veneta Repubblica[7][8] (later Veneti d'Europa, Liga Fronte Veneto and finally, again, Liga Veneta Repubblica)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrizio_Comencini
 
Beppe Grillo, Five Star Movement's leader four years ago

Grillo: “L’Italia non ha più ragione di rimanere unita. Sì a macroregioni”

"Sul suo blog il leader M5s definisce l’Italia "un’arlecchinata di popoli, di lingue, di tradizioni che non ha più alcuna ragione di stare insieme". Salvini: "Non vorrei che inseguisse la Lega" ma se da lui non ci saranno "solo parole sarà una battaglia comune"


https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/20...e-di-rimanere-unita-si-a-macroregioni/906954/

Great. Italy can devolve into a series of "macroregions" in an age of resurgent nationalism and get kicked around by everybody. Perfect.
 
@Sile Here in the US, when someone asks me where I’m from originally , I say Italy and that’s It, and I only get specific if they ask where in Italy I come From.
What do you say when someone ask You in Australia? Just a Curiosity.

I say Australian , born and bred .........but have dual citizenship due to the fact my parents where still Italians when I was born in Australia..............my sister born after my parents became Australians does not have dual citizenship and cannot qualify for any italian citizenship unless she lives in italy for 3 years..........I saw the italian embassy in November 2017 about this issue...........all my sons can become instant italian citizens if they sign all the paperwork required ...................there is a major difference on the ease or not of becoming an italian
 
I say Australian , born and bred .........but have dual citizenship due to the fact my parents where still Italians when I was born in Australia..............my sister born after my parents became Australians does not have dual citizenship and cannot qualify for any italian citizenship unless she lives in italy for 3 years..........I saw the italian embassy in November 2017 about this issue...........all my sons can become instant italian citizens if they sign all the paperwork required ...................there is a major difference on the ease or not of becoming an italian

I notice your family has defined itself as Alpine Illyrian. If that’s the case, how should I define myself, knowing that most Pugliesi have some Ancient Illyrian Ancestry?
A Puglirico, or an Apennine Illyrian?
I’m Italian, and so are You.
Good for us. [emoji3]
We’re also Related by haplogroup, Cugino.
 
I notice your family has defined itself as Alpine Illyrian. If that’s the case, how should I define myself, knowing that most Pugliesi have some Ancient Illyrian Ancestry?
A Puglirico, or an Apennine Illyrian?
I’m Italian, and so are You.
Good for us. [emoji3]
We’re also Related by haplogroup, Cugino.

not me, thats my sons idea

i just classify myself as alpinoid based on hundreds of years of historical registries..........veneto and trentino
 
@ bicicleur
The Shoengen treaty was designed what time
and for whom?
immigrant, Illegal immigrant, refuggee is not the same,
and to put another question
DOES SHOENGEN TREATY WHICH HELP IN SECURE EUROPEAN INNER BORDERS
AND FIGHTS CRIMINALITY,
ALLOW NGO FROM OTHER EU COUNTRIES TO ACT IN OTHER EU COUNTRIES?
I mean
1. if shoegen treaty etc etc CONCERN OF REFUGGEES???
DOES IT PUT REFUGGEES WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS TO THE SAME STATUS?
2. DOES SHHOEGEN TREATY STOP ACTIVISM OF CERTAIN NON GOVERMENTAL ORGANISATIONS?
I mean why we claim Shoegen treaty when it is time to push to inner and north EU immigrants and refuggees
and not when NGOs from inner and North EU make difficult the Frontex, or country border police, or army, job and work?

Why some N and C Europeans even hire boats and ships, and act against police,
and the same time their countries claim Shoegen treaty?
I think we must reconsider what EU we want,
and how EU must work,
IF I remember correct at INTERNATIONAL MEDICINE LAWS
ALL ILLEGAL AND REFUGGEE MUST STAY AT CARANTINE FOR 30 DAYS
especially if not having pappers
maybe I am wrong to that,
but was at Elis island
so why this does not happened and NGOs go and gather them and hide them etc etc

the Schengen treaty allows free traffic across the inner borders, without any distinction
someone entering Schengen is supposed to be checked at the outer borders

NGO's are independent from governments, allthough some receive subsidies
they are supposed to follow the law and the rules
their official purpose is mostly humanitarian
but appearantly many of them are infested with certain ideologies and don't follow the rules
the local authorities should be firm and impose the rules and the law upon them
that is what Italy finally did when they demanded those NGO's to sign a charter
all NGO's backed off and since then traffic and drownings have diminished dramatically
 

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