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Thread: Which countries are considered Eastern European?

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    If you are in Europe and East of the dividing line that splits Europe in half, you're in Eastern Europe.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    Being a part of the West includes a set of values that one subscribes to.

    It has got nothing to do with hatred of others.

    You don't have to hate others in believing that freedom of speech, freedom of thought, economic freedom, political freedom, justice and a moral compass makes a society better overall. Not willing to be associated with parts of the world, which do not share anything of the like with you, is not an act of hatred.

    There's nothing wrong with being proud of who you are and what you stand for.
    "The West" is hardly a scientific category. You'll just have to come to terms with the fact that mostly everyone considers Latvia to be an Eastern European country. Some humility might help against your quite comical anti-Russian bigotry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    If you are in Europe and East of the dividing line that splits Europe in half, you're in Eastern Europe.
    That's just so dumb

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    So, according to you 45 years of Cold War decide which countries are East or Ovest in a continent with thousands of years of history?
    No, you haven't got it. 50cal did though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post

    Protestant Riga and Tallinn, a Western outpost in the Baltic for nearly a millenium, with its Gothic roof gables and Hanseatic red brick facades, with its church staples, with its narrow cobblestone streets and fortresses, canals, and city walls built by the Teutonic Order.
    Two nations that have always been on the frontline against invaders from the East, be it Mongolian hordes, Slavic tribes or totalitarian
    tyrants with their delusions of grandeure. We have always bore the brunt of it all. There's a couple of million Russian bodies buried in our lands from all the wars we have fought against them throughout the centuries. If it wasn't for us and the sacrifices we made, the Iron Curtain would lie far further to the West.
    Our economies were crippled by the Soviet experiment. My great grandfather waged guerrila warfare against the Russians for 14 years up until the early 1950s. My father was a part of the independence movement in the 1980s. We laid our lives, were deported, imprisoned, shot, maimed and killed in the fight against them. Yet somehow we are being reduced to this nondescript Eastern Euro label by a soft-bodied Anglo-Saxon ignoramus drowned in postmaterialist sludge all because of a few decades of Soviet military occupation.
    I'd wager we're one of the last truly Western places left.
    As for being backwards, look up some freedom indices, education rankings, economic growth rates. Go read a history book. Educate yourself.
    I didn't know that Baltic Republics defended Europe for thousands of years.
    A friendly advice, forget these imaginary millions of Russians bodies buried in your land and be careful from the real Russians because they are winning elections in your countries.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Roughly the divide goes through center of Europe so it helps to solidify this view. What baffles me is that Eastern Europeans take offence to this!
    There is also a "great" "intellectual" discussion which state can be considered part of the Balkan Peninsula and who is not.
    We are watching overturn some basic principles we learned at school when we were children.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    If you are in Europe and East of the dividing line that splits Europe in half, you're in Eastern Europe.
    The geographical center of Europe is found a lot further East than you probably imagine. But otherwise it's an obvious point, which makes perfect sense.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I didn't know that Baltic Republics defended Europe for thousands of years.
    A friendly advice, forget these imaginary millions of Russians bodies buried in your land and be careful from the real Russians because they are winning elections in your countries.
    Deary me, I guess you're not being taught history in Albania.
    The part about million bodies wasn't hyperbole. If you're willing to challenge that point further, I'll give you a fair chance and let you do some research of your own first before schooling you.
    Also:
    a) you should probably educate yourself on how proportional election systems work — having the most votes doesn't mean you won,
    b) granting people voting rights is the right thing to do.
    As for being careful, we don't have any reason to be careful. I am prepared, though, if you're wondering. I'm keeping my assault rifle and sidegun at home, just like a good deal of my friends are. If need be, we're going to add another million bodies to our lovely soil. It makes it more fertile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    "The West" is hardly a scientific category. You'll just have to come to terms with the fact that mostly everyone considers Latvia to be an Eastern European country. Some humility might help against your quite comical anti-Russian bigotry.
    The Americans thought the Natives were Indians. It doesn't constitute an argument.

    And, yes, 'the West' is a term in social sciences.

    In fact, any term - whether academic or not - has a definition. If you're using language as a means of communication, you'll have to stick to that principle.

    So, once again, please provide a definition that suits your understanding of the term 'Eastern Europe' and explain why it applies to Latvia.

    Otherwise you're just throwing words around senselessly.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    The Americans thought the Natives were Indians. It doesn't constitute an argument.

    And, yes, 'the West' is a term in social sciences.

    In fact, any term - whether academic or not - has a definition. If you're using language as a means of communication, you'll have to stick to that principle.

    So, once again, please provide a definition that suits your understanding of the term 'Eastern Europe' and explain why it applies to Latvia.

    Otherwise you're just throwing words around senselessly.
    It is obvious that you are a mentally ill man seeing as you have vivid fantasies about shooting people with your assault rifle, so I'm not going to have a discussion with you. Whatever your grievances, you might want to reflect upon the fact that your country and your people owe their very existence to the great sacrifices of the people whose bodies you want to fertilize your soil with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    Being a part of the West includes a set of values that one subscribes to.

    It has got nothing to do with hatred of others.

    You don't have to hate others in believing that freedom of speech, freedom of thought, economic freedom, political freedom, justice and a moral compass makes a society better overall. .
    Oh, now you are dividing West and East in different way than first time, when you plastered religious denomination map. You see the freedoms and justice that you listed have nothing to do with religious dogma, and more about going away from it.
    What's wrong with dividing Europe just geographically for West and East, or North and South?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    It is obvious that you are a mentally ill man seeing as you have vivid fantasies about shooting people with your assault rifle, so I'm not going to have a discussion with you. Whatever your grievances, you might want to reflect upon the fact that your country and your people owe their very existence to the great sacrifices of the people whose bodies you want to fertilize your soil with.
    I'm not having fantasies about it, I just wouldn't mind doing it if my land was invaded, since I have the skills and the inclination and a contractual obligation with the Latvian military.

    Resorting to ad hominem arguments was your only way out of this, so you opted for that cowardly route.

    How do my people own existence to Russia? That sounds like a joke. Only Russians, some East Slavs and Serbs would think of something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    I'm not having fantasies about it, I just wouldn't mind doing it if my land was invaded, since I have the skills and the inclination and a contractual obligation with the Latvian military.

    Resorting to ad hominem arguments was your only way out of this, so you opted for that cowardly route.

    How do my people own existence to Russia? That sounds like a joke. Only Russians, some East Slavs and Serbs would think of something like that.
    They saved you from extermination at the hands of the Nazis. Generalplan Ost documents aimed for an 80% population reduction in the Baltic provinces - worse even than in Russia. That was if Himmler didn't get his who literally said that he hoped all Baltic people could be made to 'disappear'.

    The reasons for this are quite relevant to this thread: it is because the Nazis thought that Baltic people looked Eastern European (and hence were racially undesirable) and had an Eastern European culture. Now, I think neither of these things are bad, but you seem to have some gripes with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Oh, now you are dividing West and East in different way than first time, when you plastered religious denomination map. You see the freedoms and justice that you listed have nothing to do with religious dogma, and more about going away from it.
    What's wrong with dividing Europe just geographically for West and East, or North and South?
    Excuse me, the Reformation was all about being against mindless religious dogma, about being against an unfair, corrupt way of doing things. It's one of the great paradigm shifts of modern history. It's got nothing to do with religion. I'm not religious. It's just one of the main layers that define 'Northern Europe'.

    There's nothing wrong with dividing Europe geographically. The problem with is that people's geography knowledge isn't any better than their understanding of history. Latvia and Estonia lie North of Denmark and West of Finland. If they're Eastern European, neither Denmark, nor Finland are Northern European.

    The eastern edge of Europe is located thousands of kilometres East in the Urals. Most North Americans are not aware of it. The centre of Europe is to the Southeast of the centre of Latvia, if you're using the gravitational method and not including far away islands off the continent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    They saved you from extermination at the hands of the Nazis. Generalplan Ost documents aimed for an 80% population reduction in the Baltic provinces - worse even than in Russia. That was if Himmler didn't get his who literally said that he hoped all Baltic people could be made to 'disappear'.

    The reasons for this are quite relevant to this thread: it is because the Nazis thought that Baltic people looked Eastern European (and hence were racially undesirable) and had an Eastern European culture. Now, I think neither of these things are bad, but you seem to have some gripes with this.
    I actually have done research on Nazi racial policies in the Baltics. As in, I've read through the archives. Most of what you wrote here is outright incorrect. Actually, upon further inspection, every single statement you made is factually incorrect.

    Latvians and Estonians were deemed suitable for Germanization. Only Latgalians and Lithuanians were to be deported (and even then not exterminated) and either sent further East or used as guards and overseers of Slavic forced labour camps in Siberia on an industrial scale. Latgalians, just like the Belarusians, were deemed culturally backwards, based on their century-long connection to the Russian Empire under the Vitebsk Governorate. 'They were so backwards, they should not be considered a threat' is very close to a quotation of one Nazi official.

    Note that I'm talking about Nazi policy after the invasion of the Soviet Union and after the Baltics were occupied. That was the first time they carried actual 'research' measuring skulls and the like. Their policies were updated accordingly based on what they saw on the ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    They saved you from extermination at the hands of the Nazis. Generalplan Ost documents aimed for an 80% population reduction in the Baltic provinces - worse even than in Russia. That was if Himmler didn't get his who literally said that he hoped all Baltic people could be made to 'disappear'.

    The reasons for this are quite relevant to this thread: it is because the Nazis thought that Baltic people looked Eastern European (and hence were racially undesirable) and had an Eastern European culture. Now, I think neither of these things are bad, but you seem to have some gripes with this.
    Oh, and you seem absolutely clueless about the Soviet genocide that followed WWII. Basically, you just said that 'the state of Israel should be thankful to Nazi Germany, because they owe their existence to them'. It is so mind-blowingly offensive, indecent even, that I don't even know where to begin.

    But I'm not offended by idiots, so I'm not going to further elaborate on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    I actually have done research on Nazi racial policies in the Baltics. As in, I've read through the archives. Most of what you wrote here is outright incorrect. Actually, upon further inspection, every single statement you made is factually incorrect.

    Latvians and Estonians were deemed suitable for Germanization. Only Latgalians and Lithuanians were to be deported (and even then not exterminated) and either sent further East or used as guards and overseers of Slavic forced labour camps in Siberia on an industrial scale. Latgalians, just like the Belarusians, were deemed culturally backwards, based on their century-long connection to the Russian Empire under the Vitebsk Governorate. 'They were so backwards, they should not be considered a threat' is very close to a quotation of one Nazi official.

    Note that I'm talking about Nazi policy after the invasion of the Soviet Union and after the Baltics were occupied. That was the first time they carried actual 'research' measuring skulls and the like. Their policies were updated accordingly based on what they saw on the ground.
    You got duped. Quoted directly from the Generalplan Ost document:

    Auch bei den baltischen Völkern, führte Schubert weiter aus,sei die Zahl der rassisch Wertvollen nicht so erheblich. Eine Besiedlung des Landesmit Deutschen sei nicht unmöglich.
    Plug it in a translator. Schubert, the Nazi racial scientist, compares the percentage of desirables to Poland, where it was 3-5%.

    Mind you that's the moderate perspective - Himmler wanted a clean slate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    Oh, and you seem absolutely clueless about the Soviet genocide that followed WWII. Basically, you just said that 'the state of Israel should be thankful to Nazi Germany, because they owe their existence to them'. It is so mind-blowingly offensive, indecent even, that I don't even know where to begin.

    But I'm not offended by idiots, so I'm not going to further elaborate on that.
    No, Russian soldiers literally died in droves defending Eastern Europe against genocidal colonization. Are you joking now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    You got duped. Quoted directly from the Generalplan Ost document:
    Plug it in a translator. Schubert, the Nazi racial scientist, compares the percentage of desirables to Poland, where it was 3-5%.
    Mind you that's the moderate perspective - Himmler wanted a clean slate.
    The planned Nazi racial policy towards the Baltic peoples has been clearly outlined in: "Abschlußbericht der rassischen Musterungskommission Ostland, 05.11.1942. R90/148, BA."
    The distinction between ethnic Latvians and the people of Latgale has been clearly implied in "Betrifft: Dr. H. Schlau: Rassenpolitische Erwagungen zur Umvolkung der Letten, Schlau, 15.02.1942. R 70/5/89, LVVA."
    There's a lot of information on future Nazi racial policies in the reports by Nazi ethnographic researcher Dr. Georg Leibbrandt and in the reports compiled by Dr. Gunther Holz that were sent to Leibbrandt. They are available in Latvian historical archives.
    The initial Nazi racial policies were radically changed during the course of the occupation of Latvian and Estonian territories, as they had no anthropometric data and had not carried out any extensive ethnographic research beforehand.
    Your quoation speaks of the Baltic peoples as a single entity, while it has been well documented that Lithuanians, Latgalians, Latvians and Estonians were all measured separately, as I explained previously.
    In any case, your original point collapses on itself irrespective of Nazi policies. What we experienced was forced expulsion, mass murder and mass deportations with the intent of Russifying our nation under the hands of the Soviets. The difference between the Nazis and the Soviets is that the Soviets actually tried to do it.
    To say that we should he thankful for that is immoral, evil and only a degenerate would think of something like it.

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    Gee, I guess we just don't get it, Markod.

    50cal's whole point seems to be that there's something wrong with being "Eastern European", because that means "Slavic", and for him as well as for the Nazis, according to him, SLAVS would eventually all go to the crematoria, but Latvians and Estonians weren't and aren't "Untermenschen" and would be spared after being "Germanized".

    I guess it was true for some: lots of Latvian guards at extermination camps.

    Nobody brought up the Hajnal line? St. Petersburg to Trieste, guys.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Gee, I guess we just don't get it, Markod.
    50cal's whole point seems to be that there's something wrong with being "Eastern European", because that means "Slavic", and for him as well as for the Nazis, according to him, SLAVS would eventually all go to the crematoria, but Latvians and Estonians weren't and aren't "Untermenschen" and would be spared after being "Germanized".
    I guess it was true for some: lots of Latvian guards at extermination camps.
    There's nothing wrong with being Eastern European. It is wrong to label other countries Eastern European when they, in fact, are not Eastern European.

    Did I make my point simple enough for you to understand?

    As for Nazi concentration camps, one of my great grandfathers was imprisoned in Salaspils. I guess it is too tempting to resort to ad hominem attacks when your worldview is challenged, you have no counter-arguments, yet you are too weak to accept new information and adjust your views accordingly.

    Just point at me, call me a Nazi and make it easier for you, you coward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    The planned Nazi racial policy towards the Baltic peoples has been clearly outlined in: "Abschlußbericht der rassischen Musterungskommission Ostland, 05.11.1942. R90/148, BA."
    The distinction between ethnic Latvians and the people of Latgale has been clearly implied in "Betrifft: Dr. H. Schlau: Rassenpolitische Erwagungen zur Umvolkung der Letten, Schlau, 15.02.1942. R 70/5/89, LVVA."
    There's a lot of information on future Nazi racial policies in the reports by Nazi ethnographic researcher Dr. Georg Leibbrandt and in the reports compiled by Dr. Gunther Holz that were sent to Leibbrandt. They are available in Latvian historical archives.
    The initial Nazi racial policies were radically changed during the course of the occupation of Latvian and Estonian territories, as they had no anthropometric data and had not carried out any extensive ethnographic research beforehand.
    Your quoation speaks of the Baltic peoples as a single entity, while it has been well documented that Lithuanians, Latgalians, Latvians and Estonians were all measured separately, as I explained previously.
    In any case, your original point collapses on itself irrespective of Nazi policies. What we experienced was forced expulsion, mass murder and mass deportations with the intent of Russifying our nation under the hands of the Soviets. The difference between the Nazis and the Soviets is that the Soviets actually tried to do it.
    To say that we should he thankful for that is immoral, evil and only a degenerate would think of something like it.
    You are references sources that aren't available anywhere - whatever they contained, they were irrelevant to the policies of the SS. If you are interested in learning what was actually happening in the Baltics, I would recommend Tilman Plath's work on this particular topic. The SS policemen made no difference between Latvians and Slavs, and there was no intention whatsoever to assimilate them. Himmler wanted the Baltic populations gone. He refers to the 'former states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia" in his letters - they considered the extirpation of Baltic national identity a fait accompli.

    I assume you pulled these things from some Latvian Nazi site? Get a grip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    You are references sources that aren't available anywhere - whatever they contained, they were irrelevant to the policies of the SS. If you are interested in learning what was actually happening in the Baltics, I would recommend Tilman Plath's work on this particular topic. The SS policemen made no difference between Latvians and Slavs, and there was no intention whatsoever to assimilate them. Himmler wanted the Baltic populations gone. He refers to the 'former states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia" in his letters - they considered the extirpation of Baltic national identity a fait accompli.

    I assume you pulled these things from some Latvian Nazi site? Get a grip.
    You're obviously not very academically oriented or competent in historical research. BA = Bundesarchiv. Do I need to tell you how to access it? PM me if you're interested.

    As for pulling these things out of some Nazi site, the author of this is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ezergailis.

    Germanization entailed exactly the same thing the Soviets carried out in Latvia during the Soviet occupation (and almost succeeded). Latvians would be wiped out culturally and assimilated. Which is what I already said previously. Assimilation doesn't mean extermination.

    I have read correspondences between Rosenberg (who was half Estonian/Latvian himself) and Hitler's representatives regarding the racial policies towards the Baltic peoples. There was never a plan to ethnically cleanse any of the Baltic aboriginal populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    There's nothing wrong with being Eastern European. It is wrong to label other countries Eastern European when they, in fact, are not Eastern European.

    Did I make my point simple enough for you to understand?

    As for Nazi concentration camps, one of my great grandfathers was imprisoned in Salaspils. I guess it is too tempting to resort to ad hominem attacks when your worldview is challenged, you have no counter-arguments, yet you are too weak to accept new information and adjust your views accordingly.

    Just point at me, call me a Nazi and make it easier for you, you coward.


    You're the one who said that the Nazis distinguished between Slavs, whom we know were all to be exterminated, and Latvians/Estonians, who were capable of being "Germanized", and so clearly were not untermenschen.

    The clear implication was that the Germans were just recognizing an obvious difference. In addition to Protestantism, the obvious difference was, what? Genetic? Racial?

    Regardless, Eastern European for you clearly means Slavic, and equally clearly you find having your country grouped with them extremely troublesome, perhaps insulting. Is that right? Or are we getting the wrong impression?

    If my reference to Latvian guards in Nazi extermination camps is what made you lose your temper, I'm afraid facts are facts. It happened. Don't shoot the messenger. It happened in my country too, if to a lesser extent. At least we don't hold parades to honor these people, however.

    http://www.holocaustresearchproject....z/lativia.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Legion

    Oh, you may have missed some of our threads dealing with religion and the Nazis. Protestants were much more likely to vote for Hitler than Catholics. Put that in your hat and smoke it.

    Just generally, I'm trying to be more tolerant, so I didn't give you an infraction. If you continue with these over the line insults, however, there will be consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cal View Post
    You're obviously not very academically oriented or competent in historical research. BA = Bundesarchiv. Do I need to tell you how to access it? PM me if you're interested.

    As for pulling these things out of some Nazi site, the author of this is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ezergailis.

    Germanization entailed exactly the same thing the Soviets carried out in Latvia during the Soviet occupation (and almost succeeded). Latvians would be wiped out culturally and assimilated. Which is what I already said previously. Assimilation doesn't mean extermination.

    I have read correspondences between Rosenberg (who was half Estonian/Latvian himself) and Hitler's representatives regarding the racial policies towards the Baltic peoples. There was never a plan to ethnically cleanse any of the Baltic aboriginal populations.
    You might want to produce a single piece of evidence that the Generalplan Ost changed in the years of the Baltic occupation.

    The treatment of the general population by the SS shows no evidence of it. There's no indication that Himmler changed his mind, or that Ehlich changed his mind. With Himmler inevitably gaining power the policies outlined in GO would have actually been the better option.

    Plans to expel Latvians predate WWII and the Nazis:

    „Kann nicht auch Kurland, einem autonomen Polen vorgelagert, für uns brauchbarwerden als bäuerliches Kolonisationsland, wenn wir die Letten nach Rußland abschieben?Früher hätte man das für phantastisch gehalten, und doch ist es nicht unausführbar.“
    There was widespread sentiment among Germans that the Baltic countries were theirs. One can see manifestations of this already in the atrocities committed by the Freikorps long before WWII.

    I think you might have read propaganda by the Reichskommissariat - they made prolific attempts to win over native populations especially in the later years of the war. Himmler and the SS never intended to assimilate Latvians. Tilman Plath explicitly mentions this in his book 'Zwischen Schonung und Menschenjagden'. It was Himmler and the SS who were responsible for the ethnic cleansings - and I assure you Himmler wanted Latvians gone. Even Volksdeutsche like Rosenberg himself were considered suspect.

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