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Thread: Turks are Anatolians under the hood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    According to Ronald C. Jennings at the beginning of 16th c. the Armenians of Trebizond constituted 13% of the population.
    What were the remaining 87% then?

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Strange that whoever wrote that wiki article neglected to mention that this area was part of Magna Graecia, and if Southern Italy, for example, received a lot of gene flow from Greece, than so did the Pontian area.

    Goodness, you might think it was some sort of campaign from another country to reduce Greek influence everywhere. :)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Strange that whoever wrote that wiki article neglected to mention that this area was part of Magna Graecia, and if Southern Italy, for example, received a lot of gene flow from Greece, than so did the Pontian area.

    Goodness, you might think it was some sort of campaign from another country to reduce Greek influence everywhere. :)

    Yes, exactly! I'm sure there's some Greek gene flow that made it to other areas like Egypt, France, Iberia, Turkey etc. I highly doubt they avoided mixing with the Turkish and the Egyptians because they aren't "European". Lol. Besides, Turkey is a stone throw away from Greece so why can't there be any Greek flow going there as well?

    I recall seeing Pontic Greek results on anthrogenica and they do score significant Italian or Balkan
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Strange that whoever wrote that wiki article neglected to mention that this area was part of Magna Graecia, and if Southern Italy, for example, received a lot of gene flow from Greece, than so did the Pontian area.

    Goodness, you might think it was some sort of campaign from another country to reduce Greek influence everywhere. :)

    This map is misleading at least for the Albanian coast. Not all artifacts with antique Greek origin mean there was a Greek settlement there. Many artifacts came to Albanian coast through trade. Don't forget that the reason Rome attacked Illyria (modern Albania) was piracy. That meant that Illyrian boats were some of the fastest one for the time, which means other Balkan people were aware of Greek products, and had the boats to go and pick them up. It means that Greek sculptors were hired and payed to do certain job and leave back to your country, contrary to Rome who settled them in the area.

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    @ ihype02

    At least read the History of Pontus correct.

    as also search their genetics correct.

    and most of all study their dialect,
    it has more primitive forms than Homer.

    Anyway, good effort to express your hate against Greeks.

    btw
    Mithridates was not of Greek origin, he descent either from Cyros or from Dareios of Persia
    he was a Satrap the times of Alexander who allied with him, possibly Persian
    Mithridates was Hellenised.
    to Unify the Greeks and the locals,
    HE WAS THE ONE ACCEPTED AMONG THE ALEXANDER'S EPIGONOI AS EQUAL
    Due to his mother origin, and his half Greek kingdom

    For better info read Xenophon the 10 000 descent.

    Besides there is 3rd major ethnic group there, except Rum and Laz and Turks
    Do you know them,

    the Greco-Persian or Greco-Aryan or Greco-Iranian call it as you like mix is obvious even today.
    many of the Pontic Greek names and surnames and some vocabulary is from Persian / Laz origin

    as for the numbers, percentces etc
    I will not enter in such discussion.
    Pontic Greeks existed even in Kars Armenia and Sohoum Georgia,
    same Armenians and Georgians existed in Pontus,

    the estimations before the Russian Turkish war,
    surely Give total population of area much more x2 at least than Greece and Albania had.

    Russo-Turkish of war divided all population there THE 19TH CENTURY
    Τhat is why exist the terminations Helleno-Pontioi and Roso-Pontioi
    and and another group, guess who.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    This map is misleading at least for the Albanian coast. Not all artifacts with antique Greek origin mean there was a Greek settlement there. Many artifacts came to Albanian coast through trade. Don't forget that the reason Rome attacked Illyria (modern Albania) was piracy. That meant that Illyrian boats were some of the fastest one for the time, which means other Balkan people were aware of Greek products, and had the boats to go and pick them up. It means that Greek sculptors were hired and payed to do certain job and leave back to your country, contrary to Rome who settled them in the area.
    I don't think we should equate Illyria simply with Albania. Actually to Romans Illyria went pretty much from Croatia/Slovenia to Albania, and some of the most famous or infamous pirates, like the Liburnians, lived hundreds of kilometers to the north of Albania. I'm not even sure, in fact, that the Illyria that Romans talked so much about was very related with the peoples that lived in Albania, even though they could actually be also Illyrians in language and culture. The province of Illyricum didn't even extend over most of Albania. Much of Albania, except for the northernmost region, was a part of Epirus Nova and was sometimes called "Illyria Graeca" exactly because it wasn't THAT "barbarian" to Roman eyes due to extensive Greek influence and arguably a more "familiar" culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I don't think we should equate Illyria simply with Albania. Actually to Romans Illyria went pretty much from Croatia/Slovenia to Albania, and some of the most famous or infamous pirates, like the Liburnians, lived hundreds of kilometers to the north of Albania. I'm not even sure, in fact, that the Illyria that Romans talked so much about was very related with the peoples that lived in Albania, even though they could actually be also Illyrians in language and culture. The province of Illyricum didn't even extend over most of Albania. Much of Albania, except for the northernmost region, was a part of Epirus Nova and was sometimes called "Illyria Graeca" exactly because it wasn't THAT "barbarian" to Roman eyes due to extensive Greek influence and arguably a more "familiar" culture.
    Illyricum and Illyria are not the same and shouldn't be confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I don't think we should equate Illyria simply with Albania. Actually to Romans Illyria went pretty much from Croatia/Slovenia to Albania, and some of the most famous or infamous pirates, like the Liburnians, lived hundreds of kilometers to the north of Albania. I'm not even sure, in fact, that the Illyria that Romans talked so much about was very related with the peoples that lived in Albania, even though they could actually be also Illyrians in language and culture. The province of Illyricum didn't even extend over most of Albania. Much of Albania, except for the northernmost region, was a part of Epirus Nova and was sometimes called "Illyria Graeca" exactly because it wasn't THAT "barbarian" to Roman eyes due to extensive Greek influence and arguably a more "familiar" culture.
    In 168BC the romans took modern montenegro from the illyrians and in the same year ended the third macedonian war ..........the third macedonian war was fought between Roman .v. macedonians and their allies molossians ( epirote people )who ruled over modern northern albania
    The outcome was disastrous for Epirus; Molossia fell to Rome in 167 BC and 150,000 of its inhabitants were enslaved.[1]
    .
    After this the Molossian area was governed by Romans permanently and its major port was Durres........the land became known as a roman protectorate ..........it remained like this until the last macedonian war in 146BC when it became known as Epirus Nova ( new Epirus ).
    .
    and montenegro became known as Praevalitana
    .
    The later Illyrian war of 4 years circa 6 AD was fought between romans and illyrians who came only from Dalmatia and Pannonia
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Illyricum and Illyria are not the same and shouldn't be confused
    I know that. I'm just saying that you can't just equate Illyrians with Albania, let alone assume that the pirates that annoyed Rome so much and were used a justification for war and conquest in Illyria aren't necessarily to be especially associated with the people who lived in Albania. Liburnians, for example, were some of the most famous, and we know they didn't live in the territory of Albania. Actually, as far as I know, the present territory of Albania was probably regarded as the most "civilized", due to Hellenistic and later Graeco-Roman influences since early on, and not like "Illyria barbara".

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    The Turks are suspected of originating the centum languages in Europe, that is to say, it turns out that we are witnessing the origin of European agriculture and possibly the origin of the much-indo-European Indo-European , the peninsula of Anatolia is important in the history of Europe.

    The Anatolian peninsula, I think, is still part of that ancient Indo-European, Roman and Byzantine essence.
    Last edited by ROS; 08-04-18 at 12:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I know that. I'm just saying that you can't just equate Illyrians with Albania, let alone assume that the pirates that annoyed Rome so much and were used a justification for war and conquest in Illyria aren't necessarily to be especially associated with the people who lived in Albania. Liburnians, for example, were some of the most famous, and we know they didn't live in the territory of Albania. Actually, as far as I know, the present territory of Albania was probably regarded as the most "civilized", due to Hellenistic and later Graeco-Roman influences since early on, and not like "Illyria barbara".
    This is like saying you should not equate Brazil and Portugal.....no equation here, Illyrians are ancestors of Albanians.


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    Affinity of modern population of the region, HarappaWorld run:

    Greeks # of samples S-Indian Baloch Caucasian NE-Euro SE-Asian Siberian NE-Asian Papuan American Beringian Mediterranean SW-Asian San E-African Pygmy W-African
    Greece, mainland 15 0 8 31 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 26 9 0 0 0 0
    Greece, Macedonia 5 0 8 31 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 25 9 0 0 0 0
    Greece, Peloponnese 5 0 9 31 24 0 0 0 0 0 0 26 9 0 0 0 0
    Other mainland 5 0 7 30 26 0 0 0 0 0 0 26 9 0 0 0 0
    Greece, Ionian 2 0 9 34 18 0 0 0 0 0 0 26 12 0 0 0 0
    Greek, Islands, East 13 0 9 38 15 0 0 0 0 0 0 23 14 0 0 0 0
    Cyprus 4 1 10 44 6 1 0 0 0 0 0 20 17 0 0 0 0
    Cappadocia Greek, central turkey 1 0 11 46 9 0 1 0 0 0 0 20 13 0 0 0 0
    Turkey 4 1 15 44 11 0 4 3 0 0 1 11 9 0 0 0 0
    Armenia 7 1 20 52 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 10 13 0 0 0 0
    Georgia 6 0 21 58 7 0 1 0 0 0 0 5 6 0 0 0 0
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Holy crap, Greek peleponnese scores exactly like how I should score if I bothered doing a 23andme test and ran my results through Harappa world! lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    This is like saying you should not equate Brazil and Portugal.....no equation here, Illyrians are ancestors of Albanians.


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    Well, then I repeat what you say: you should not equate Brazil with Portugal. Brazilians descend much of their ancestry from Portugal, but not all Brazil descends from Portugal, and not all of Portugal is, on equal terms, relevant ancestors of the modern Brazilian people. "Portugal" as a whole is not the ancestor of Brazil. Portuguese people, mostly coming from a few specific regions of Portugal, were (part of) the ancestors of Brazilians. There is no such seamless direct connection, even merely 400-500 years later.

    So, it is self-evident that neither the Albanian territory nor the Albanian people inherited all of ancient Illyria, as there were many Illyrian tribes (some linguists even suspect they spoke different languages). Illyria to Romans referred to a much bigger territory and to many other populations, some of which certainly didn't contribute much to the present culture, language and even ancestry of Albanians. Illyrians occupied the whole Western Balkans, Albanians probably descending from Illyrians does not mean that EVERYTHING that pertained to ancient Illyrians, including all the piracy against Roman, came from present-day Albania or from the main direct ancestors of Albanians (remember, the original issue here in this topic was about the coast of Albania and its supposedly "Greek" settlements, that is about territory, not DNA).

    So, I maintain a very simple observation were it not for how easily triggered the Albanians on this forum seem to be even when the observation is actually positive to their people: Illyria was a broader term, culturally and territorially, than the modern territory of Albania, and the modern territory of Albania was considered a more civilized, less barbarian part of what the Romans called Illyria, often contrasting that southern territory with the northern territory of "Illyria barbara". So, we can't simply assume that all the Greek material culture there derives from widespread piracy by Illyrians. Many of the most famous Illyrian pirates (referring to the geographic term, not necessarily ethnic), like Liburnians, weren't even in the territory of Albania AFAIK.

    Unless, of course, this is all because the assumption is that all Illyrians were savage pirates, so those Illyrians that Romans talked about as pirates that needed to be fought against and thus used as a justification for their wars of conquest could only, necessarily, be ancient proto-Albanians living in Albanian territory, because all Illyrians lived the same way, and pirates could've been anywhere else [ironic, of course].

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    i doubt anyone can actually match ancients people with moderns people from same lands
    all tuscans and not from original etruscans etc
    all rome people are not all from ancient romans etc
    all french are not all Gauls etc
    if we cannot even find where etruscan came from even if we use modern tuscans , what is the minisule percentage of same ethnicity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Well, then I repeat what you say: you should not equate Brazil with Portugal. Brazilians descend much of their ancestry from Portugal, but not all Brazil descends from Portugal, and not all of Portugal is, on equal terms, relevant ancestors of the modern Brazilian people. "Portugal" as a whole is not the ancestor of Brazil. Portuguese people, mostly coming from a few specific regions of Portugal, were (part of) the ancestors of Brazilians. There is no such seamless direct connection, even merely 400-500 years later.

    So, it is self-evident that neither the Albanian territory nor the Albanian people inherited all of ancient Illyria, as there were many Illyrian tribes (some linguists even suspect they spoke different languages). Illyria to Romans referred to a much bigger territory and to many other populations, some of which certainly didn't contribute much to the present culture, language and even ancestry of Albanians. Illyrians occupied the whole Western Balkans, Albanians probably descending from Illyrians does not mean that EVERYTHING that pertained to ancient Illyrians, including all the piracy against Roman, came from present-day Albania or from the main direct ancestors of Albanians (remember, the original issue here in this topic was about the coast of Albania and its supposedly "Greek" settlements, that is about territory, not DNA).

    So, I maintain a very simple observation were it not for how easily triggered the Albanians on this forum seem to be even when the observation is actually positive to their people: Illyria was a broader term, culturally and territorially, than the modern territory of Albania, and the modern territory of Albania was considered a more civilized, less barbarian part of what the Romans called Illyria, often contrasting that southern territory with the northern territory of "Illyria barbara". So, we can't simply assume that all the Greek material culture there derives from widespread piracy by Illyrians. Many of the most famous Illyrian pirates (referring to the geographic term, not necessarily ethnic), like Liburnians, weren't even in the territory of Albania AFAIK.

    Unless, of course, this is all because the assumption is that all Illyrians were savage pirates, so those Illyrians that Romans talked about as pirates that needed to be fought against and thus used as a justification for their wars of conquest could only, necessarily, be ancient proto-Albanians living in Albanian territory, because all Illyrians lived the same way, and pirates could've been anywhere else [ironic, of course].


    Honestly I can tell that you dont have bad intentions and you aren't trying to spread misinformation or anything so nothing against you. Miscommunication is happening here, most of the claims you think are being made
    are made by a tiny minority that is loud. And the ancient haplogroup ancestors of albanian haplogroups that have been found were found in territories that were illyrian. Dyrrachium/Durres is attested in ancient times as being taulanti, etc.


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    And its important to not mix the borders of Illyricum, which were coordinates in a roman map, with where Illyrian tribes were documented to be residing in different times in history. Illyricum comes later on.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Honestly I can tell that you dont have bad intentions and you aren't trying to spread misinformation or anything so nothing against you. Miscommunication is happening here, most of the claims you think are being made
    are made by a tiny minority that is loud. And the ancient haplogroup ancestors of albanian haplogroups that have been found were found in territories that were illyrian. Dyrrachium/Durres is attested in ancient times as being taulanti, etc.
    I'm glad you understand my intentions. I think the main misunderstanding here is that in fact I'm not denying that Albanians descend from Illyrian tribes. Not at all, I'm just saying that Illyria and Illyrians were terms that referred to many other populations and lands - it was a broader term -, and that not everything that Romans wrote about Illyrians, especially specific things like the problem with widespread piracy in the Adriatic Sea, had necessaeily to do with those same Illyrian tribes that lived in Albania and/or those that became the main sources of modern Albanian ancestry. For example, the linguistic and cultural resistance of Albanians and their expansion seem to indicate a people that was originally more concentrated in the highland interior of the country, and not to an intensely seafaring people. And it is just a fact that the most feared pirates from Illyria, the Liburnians, were in fact quite to the north of Albania. Certainly, after so many conquests, not all Illyrian tribes preserved their ethnic/linguistic identity, quite to the contrary, Albanians are probably just a more resisting branch amogn many that went extinct.

    None of that negates the Illyrian origins of the language/culture of Albanians, obviously more or less mixed since then with others. It's just to say that, about the former comment about the Greek influence in (present-day) Albanian settlemments, we can't say for sure that it was mainly due to piracy on Hellenic cities, and not just due to natural trade contacts and mutual connections between the two neighboring cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    And its important to not mix the borders of Illyricum, which were coordinates in a roman map, with where Illyrian tribes were documented to be residing in different times in history. Illyricum comes later on.

    I would suggest you to avoid the use of this kind of maps that are not designed by serious scholars but by unknown people. This map and others like this, are products of Greek chauvinism and have as their purpose to justify, from the "historical" point of view, the invasion of part of the Albanian territory, the physical extermination and assimilation of the Albanian population, native in this territory and the territorial ambitions of Greece for the remaining part of the Epirus which today is part of Albania. Never heard about Megali idea? The map that you have posted is a product of this criminal ideology.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I said they are SHIFTED TO AFFINITIES WITH NORTHERN EUROPEANS, not that they are CLOSER to Northern Europeans (e.g. if a people was 5% like Northern Europeans in the past, and now their affinity with them is 15%,

    Yes compared to their ancient ancestors Mycanaeans for the Mainland and Minoans in the Aegean but this is almost trivial.

    About 70% of modern Greeks ancestry is still Mycanaean like.
    You can read about here http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/...nt-dna-reveals

    You can find the original study upon which this article is based at nature.com i think.
    But i'm not sure if the access is free or one has to pay something.

    So in your own words their Northern affinity is about 10% more compared to their ancient ancestors.
    This is about the same as the Mycanaeans of the Bronze Age in Mainland Greece were more Northern like than the
    Minoans who were a wave of Mycanaeans who migrated earlier to Crete and the Islands and thus didn't recieved the
    additional Northern admixtures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    i doubt anyone can actually match ancients people with moderns people from same lands
    all tuscans and not from original etruscans etc
    all rome people are not all from ancient romans etc
    all french are not all Gauls etc
    if we cannot even find where etruscan came from even if we use modern tuscans , what is the minisule percentage of same ethnicity?

    Yet we still found the traces.
    and many times the traditional remains,
    so yes modern Tuscans are not Etruscans, but still have a % of them
    Modern Greeks are not the ancient, but still have a % of them
    Aromani people are Romans, but most of them might not descent from Rome.


    And the dangerous with Genetics to be open far wide
    is what happened to a nearby country,
    when genetic tests proved that he had different origin
    they remove him from his public job, and send him to prison,

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Guys pay more attention to my post before you respond back.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I was about to respond back but I have already a feeling it would fall to deaf ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I would suggest you to avoid the use of this kind of maps that are not designed by serious scholars but by unknown people. This map and others like this, are products of Greek chauvinism and have as their purpose to justify, from the "historical" point of view, the invasion of part of the Albanian territory, the physical extermination and assimilation of the Albanian population, native in this territory and the territorial ambitions of Greece for the remaining part of the Epirus which today is part of Albania. Never heard about Megali idea? The map that you have posted is a product of this criminal ideology.
    Thats possible, but I was only sharing it as a counter to the map of Illyricum which reflected borders in a Roman map of their province at one point in time, not where tribes are living.

    I could have also posted this image as a counter:



    But yes its possible there are ommissions and manipulations in the map, but i haven't been able to find any other maps which pinpoint illyrian tribes and where they live so its all I have at the moment. If you have
    a map of where illyrian tribes were living that is more reliable i would appreciate you sending it in my inbox, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Thats possible, but I was only sharing it as a counter to the map of Illyricum which reflected borders in a Roman map of their province at one point in time, not where tribes are living.

    I could have also posted this image as a counter:



    But yes its possible there are ommissions and manipulations in the map, but i haven't been able to find any other maps which pinpoint illyrian tribes and where they live so its all I have at the moment. If you have
    a map of where illyrian tribes were living that is more reliable i would appreciate you sending it in my inbox, thanks.
    My intervention in this discussion was because i noticed (and i was not the only one who noticed this) the use of these maps that first of all are without an author and second that come from, certain addresses that are not a perfect example of credibility.

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