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Thread: Turks are Anatolians under the hood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    My intervention in this discussion was because i noticed (and i was not the only one who noticed this) the use of these maps that first of all are without an author and second that come from, certain addresses that are not a perfect example of credibility.


    Fantastic map,

    I see Epirus
    I see Makedonia
    But I do not see Illyria




    The author did that on Purpose,
    He is enemy

    Nice joke
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    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    This is not going to devolve into another Albanian war, gentlemen. Am I cear? THIS IS NOT ABOUT ALBANIA. Get on topic.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is not going to devolve into another Albanian war, gentlemen. Am I cear? THIS IS NOT ABOUT ALBANIA. Get on topic.
    +1.............

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    This is like saying you should not equate Brazil and Portugal.....no equation here, Illyrians are ancestors of Albanians.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    No one here cares who Albanians ancestors are.

    This thread is not about Albanians

    What is so difficult to understand about it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    No one here cares who Albanians ancestors are.

    This thread is not about Albanians

    What is so difficult to understand about it.
    The first person to mention Albanians in this thread was a half turk half Albanian guy.

    The thread is titled "Are Turks Anatolians Under the Hood?"

    If they are not then it's relevant to the thread, correct? If a big percentage of today's turks are georgians, armenians, greeks, albanians, bulgarians, bosnians, etc then these are all relevant to the thread.

    If there are many other ethnicities other than Anatolian Greeks that make up todays turks, then this is the truth.

    Its too convenient for Greek nationalist ambitions to claim all western turkey as simply assimilated Greeks or no?


    It is true however that the thread was veering off too much into illyrian specific stuff that is unrelated to this thread.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Turks have considerabele non-anatolian ancestry. There is little need to hypothesize, we actually have DNA material of Bronze Age Anatolians:


    The Bronze Age Anatolians cluster very close to the Mycenean Greeks. Compared to the modern peoples they are most closely related to the Greeks in general (also to South Italians and Albanians), but most of all to modern Cypriots.

    The modern Turks in the above graph cluster somewhere between Armenians and Iranians (in the Caucasus Iran circle). So it is quite remarkable that modern people who do not live in Anatolia are more related to the Bronze Age Anatolians than the modern people who actually live in Anatolia.

    There has certainly been a genetic shift in Anatolia. The modern population of Anatolia (Turks) drifted apart considerably from the original Bronze Age Anatolians. There must have been considerable recent admixture. This is true because in particular Cypriots and some other islanders practically overlap with Bronze Age Anatolians (who where highly similar to Mycenaeans).

    I suspect that Turks still must have cosiderable Anatolian admixture, but the argument that they are simply Turcofied Anatolians seems to be false.

    This also says something about the Armenians. They also deviate from the Bronze Age Anatolians. But let's not forget that Armenians originally inhabited the Caucasus area rather than Anatolia. Somewhere between Iran and Anatolia. So Armenians may have al lot Iranic admixture.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    On these plots Anatolian Turks deviate a lot because of their atypical Central Asian Turkic admixture (about %10) Rest of their ancestry must be very close to the Ancient Anatolians. (with some Balkan / Caucasus admixture added in)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    On these plots Anatolian Turks deviate a lot because of their atypical Central Asian Turkic admixture (about %10) Rest of their ancestry must be very close to the Ancient Anatolians. (with some Balkan / Caucasus admixture added in)
    I think they may have considerable Iranic/Caucasus admixture as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Turks have considerabele non-anatolian ancestry.
    With that perspective, the only people who have european ancestry, are Neandertals.
    About Turks and Bronze Age Anatolians, Using Early Farmer Anatolian or Bronze Age Anatolian figures and trying to use to understand relationship between Modern Turkish and Early Anatolian is not rational. Becuase those cultures were just in West Anatolia, farming spreaded to Greece before many place in Anatolia.



    Also even current big city populations in Western Turkey are from Blacksea and East Central Anatolia. Example: Istanbul

    Add modern Bulgarian and Romanian population to Modern Greeks and then see how close you are to Myceneans

    haberturk.jpg

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    I think they may have considerable Iranic/Caucasus admixture as well.
    BA "Anatolia" was rather genetically diverse place. Also it is hard to call it Anatolia or locals Anatolians before Iron Age.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    On these plots Anatolian Turks deviate a lot because of their atypical Central Asian Turkic admixture (about %10) Rest of their ancestry must be very close to the Ancient Anatolians. (with some Balkan / Caucasus admixture added in)
    I also think that a difference between Turkey and Anatolia is this 10% of Turkic admixture. Welcome to Eupedia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    BA "Anatolia" was rather genetically diverse place. Also it is hard to call it Anatolia or locals Anatolians before Iron Age.
    How diverse it was?

    The second thing you say makes no sense. The term is a modern geographic term and we can use it just like we use other modern geographic terms.

    The 'locals' never identified as Anatolians.

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    [QUOTE=A. Papadimitriou;538846]How diverse it was?

    M300627 Kum4 M740087 I2499
    Anatolia, North EBA, 5kya Anatolia, SE BA
    Run time 2.41 Run Time 4.58
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 12.04 Baloch 8
    Caucasian 15.06 Caucasian 42
    NE-Euro 41.42 NE-Euro 7
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan 0
    American 4.53 American -
    Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 13.9 Mediterranean 29
    SW-Asian 11.92 SW-Asian 13
    San 0.49 San -
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.63 Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African




    The second thing you say makes no sense. The term is a modern geographic term and we can use it just like we use other modern geographic terms.

    The 'locals' never identified as Anatolians.
    I thought it was in use in Byzantine Empire, and being Greek in origin it makes sense to introspect this name from Classical Greece (Iron Age) till Turkic Conquest of Anatolia.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Great summary by a Turkish blogger: http://www.haplogruplar.com/the-gene...uz-migrations/

    Cappadocian Greeks can be modelled as Anatolia_BA + Iran_Neo + Minor Steppe.

    Modern Turks can be modelled as Cappadocian Greeks mixed with a population that consists of Steppe + Iran_Neo + Siberian + East Asian + South Asian. This mix is typical of contemporary Central Asians.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    [QUOTE=LeBrok;538854]
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    How diverse it was?

    M300627 Kum4 M740087 I2499
    Anatolia, North EBA, 5kya Anatolia, SE BA
    Run time 2.41 Run Time 4.58
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch 12.04 Baloch 8
    Caucasian 15.06 Caucasian 42
    NE-Euro 41.42 NE-Euro 7
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan 0
    American 4.53 American -
    Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 13.9 Mediterranean 29
    SW-Asian 11.92 SW-Asian 13
    San 0.49 San -
    E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy 0.63 Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African





    I thought it was in use in Byzantine Empire, and being Greek in origin it makes sense to introspect this name from Classical Greece (Iron Age) till Turkic Conquest of Anatolia.
    Are all those samples from the same time period?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markozd View Post
    Great summary by a Turkish blogger: http://www.haplogruplar.com/the-gene...uz-migrations/

    Cappadocian Greeks can be modelled as Anatolia_BA + Iran_Neo + Minor Steppe.

    Modern Turks can be modelled as Cappadocian Greeks mixed with a population that consists of Steppe + Iran_Neo + Siberian + East Asian + South Asian. This mix is typical of contemporary Central Asians.
    That does make a lot of sense. Looked at in this way, the "Ottoman Turk" gene flow is higher than looking just at Han or Siberian would indicate, so, indeed, more than 10%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That does make a lot of sense. Looked at in this way, the "Ottoman Turk" gene flow is higher than looking just at Han or Siberian would indicate, so, indeed, more than 10%.
    Yes, it's obvious when you look at the South Asian component that probably has but a weak relationship to the Turkic ethnogesis in the eastern steppe, and didn't exist in Anatolia before the arrival of the Turks. It must have been picked up in Central Asia. Assuming contemporary Turkmens are representative of those immigrants, I'd say the impact could be as high as 30%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I said they are SHIFTED TO AFFINITIES WITH NORTHERN EUROPEANS, not that they are CLOSER to Northern Europeans (e.g. if a people was 5% like Northern Europeans in the past, and now their affinity with them is 15%, they were shiftd toward a closer affinity with them, even though it's still minor). That's what the data demonstrate, there was an increasing influence of Northern European admixture onto the Greek population, especially the mainlanders as opposed to the Greek islanders. And, yes, that Northern European admixture is historically and genetically most clearly related to the Eastern European population that are now mostly Slavic-speaking. Saying that "they are much closer to other Southern European and Southeast European countries" is as true as it is honestly quite irrelevant on this matter, because that fact doesn't negate that the increased Northern European affinity of Modern Greeks, as opposed to the Mycenaean and Minoan Greeks whose DNA were analyzed until now, is still relatively minor, but what can be found is mostly related to Eastern Europe, mostly inhabited by Slavs, and that fits nicely with the very well documented (and still very visible in the Balkans) impact of Slavic and (northern) Turkic migrations during the Middle Ages. You don't need to believe me, you can search in many other topics on this very forum and also in genomic studies.
    You're right. Modern mainland Greeks cluster with Balkanites on every calculator I've seen including Bulgarians, Romanians, Kossovars, and Serbs. There is also a genetic connection to Central/Southern Italy (comparative I would guess).You rarely see either an Aegean Islander in a mainlander's top 20 let alone a Cypriot, Anatolian Greek or Turk.
    Last edited by matadworf; 16-04-18 at 03:23.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    You're right. Modern mainland Greeks cluster with Balkanites on every calculator I've seen including Bulgarians, Romanians, Kossovars, and Serbs. There is also a genetic connection to Central/Southern Italy (comparative I would guess).You rarely see either an Aegean Islander in a mainlander's top 20 let alone a Cypriot, Anatolian Greek or Turk.
    Are you serious?
    I have never seen Mainland Greeks clustering with Serbs and Romanians not in a single calculator



    Modern mainland Greeks cluster with Balkanites
    Nope ,they cluster with South Balkan and Central to South Italians.


    There is also a genetic connection to Central/Southern Italy (comparative I would guess)
    Mainland Greeks with the possible exception of some outliers in the North are closer to Central/South Italians than to
    Serbs and Romanians.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    There has certainly been a genetic shift in Anatolia. The modern population of Anatolia (Turks) drifted apart considerably from the original Bronze Age Anatolians. There must have been considerable recent admixture. This is true because in particular Cypriots and some other islanders practically overlap with Bronze Age Anatolians (who where highly similar to Mycenaeans).

    I suspect that Turks still must have cosiderable Anatolian admixture, but the argument that they are simply Turcofied Anatolians seems to be false.

    This also says something about the Armenians. They also deviate from the Bronze Age Anatolians. But let's not forget that Armenians originally inhabited the Caucasus area rather than Anatolia. Somewhere between Iran and Anatolia. So Armenians may have al lot Iranic admixture.
    This is a good analysis but IMO with a fatal flaw: the argument presented by Razib Khan rests on the assumption that the Turkic immigration could have been massive, but didn't change the genetic pool of Anatolia as much as some, especially in Turkey itself, would've believed, so the comparison is just between Medieval Anatolia around 1100 AD and Post-Turkish Anatolia in the contemporary era. The argument isn't that those "Anatolians" who would've become "Turkified Anatolians" were entirely indigenous, living there without much change since thousands of years before.


    There was certainly a lot of genetic shift in Anatolia between the Bronze Age and the Medieval Era, though I wouldn't say it affected the majority of the local ancestry, but there were also some 2,500 years for that genetic shift to happen, and I find it very doubtful that virtually nothing happened in Anatolia, in terms of admixture, until the Turks arrived so much later, and Anatolia_Bronze Age would therefore be a good fit for how the genetics of Anatolians were like in the beginning of the 12th century, before the bulk of the Turkic immigration.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    This is a good analysis but IMO with a fatal flaw: the argument presented by Razib Khan rests on the assumption that the Turkic immigration could have been massive, but didn't change the genetic pool of Anatolia as much as some, especially in Turkey itself, would've believed, so the comparison is just between Medieval Anatolia around 1100 AD and Post-Turkish Anatolia in the contemporary era. The argument isn't that those "Anatolians" who would've become "Turkified Anatolians" were entirely indigenous, living there without much change since thousands of years before.


    There was certainly a lot of genetic shift in Anatolia between the Bronze Age and the Medieval Era, though I wouldn't say it affected the majority of the local ancestry, but there were also some 2,500 years for that genetic shift to happen, and I find it very doubtful that virtually nothing happened in Anatolia, in terms of admixture, until the Turks arrived so much later, and Anatolia_Bronze Age would therefore be a good fit for how the genetics of Anatolians were like in the beginning of the 12th century, before the bulk of the Turkic immigration.
    Well, we could safely assume that a lot happened between the Bronze Age and 1100 A.D. Yet, I find it remarkable that the Cypriots would still cluster very close to the Bronze Age Anatolians. One might say, Cyprus, being an island was probably better isolated from migrations within Anatolia. The same is true, after all, for other Greek islanders. Yet, also people like Albanians are quite close to Bronze Age Anatolians. So in this regard, we have to assume that until 1100 A.D. there has been a larger genetic shift in Anatolia than there has been in the Balkans. Perhaps, but still, I find that hard to believe.

    Instead, I think this may indeed have something to do with the fact that Anatolia was heterogenous and that these Bronze Age specimens are from Western Anatolians as Boreas stated. Makes sense, if Western Anatolia was somewhat Mycenaean-like during the Bronze Age, and the Cypriots were perhaps colonized by Anatolian like peoples and Mycenaeans, then the similarity makes sense. The Central and Eastern Anatolians had more Caucasus input. Turks brought even more of that. So, the difference between Western Bronze Age Anatolians and modern Turks is considerable.

    That said, in this line of thought Western Turks should be Western Anatolians + some Turkish admixture. They should therefore cluster closer to the Bronze Age Western Anatolians. I.e. closer to modern Cypriots. I don't know whether this is true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Well, we could safely assume that a lot happened between the Bronze Age and 1100 A.D. Yet, I find it remarkable that the Cypriots would still cluster very close to the Bronze Age Anatolians. One might say, Cyprus, being an island was probably better isolated from migrations within Anatolia. The same is true, after all, for other Greek islanders. Yet, also people like Albanians are quite close to Bronze Age Anatolians. So in this regard, we have to assume that until 1100 A.D. there has been a larger genetic shift in Anatolia than there has been in the Balkans. Perhaps, but still, I find that hard to believe.

    Instead, I think this may indeed have something to do with the fact that Anatolia was heterogenous and that these Bronze Age specimens are from Western Anatolians as Boreas stated. Makes sense, if Western Anatolia was somewhat Mycenaean-like during the Bronze Age, and the Cypriots were perhaps colonized by Anatolian like peoples and Mycenaeans, then the similarity makes sense. The Central and Eastern Anatolians had more Caucasus input. Turks brought even more of that. So, the difference between Western Bronze Age Anatolians and modern Turks is considerable.

    That said, in this line of thought Western Turks should be Western Anatolians + some Turkish admixture. They should therefore cluster closer to the Bronze Age Western Anatolians. I.e. closer to modern Cypriots. I don't know whether this is true.
    IMO quite a lot of change could've happened - at least theoretically, we still have to prove or disprove this with ancient DNA samples - after many post-Bronze Age but pre-Turkic invasions and long periods of dominance by Hurrian, Urartian, Assyrian, Persian, Armenian and other peoples, who most probably had more CHG and Iranian_Chalcolithic-related admixture than Bronze Age Western Anatolians, and also some peoples that must've increased the steppe-derived admixture in Anatolians even before Turks from Central Asia, like Cimmerians. As you say, I also think it is possible that Western Anatolia simply got more influenced by Eastern Anatolia/Armenian Highlands - and in fact this pattern seems to be confirmed by several east-to-west historic movements of peoples e.g. Urartians, Armenians, Kurds). The unification of many Middle Eastern territories under one polity in the Achaemenid, Seleucid, Roman and other empires should've also facilitated more genetic exchange with peoples who weren't very like Bronze Age Anatolians. In my opinion, the impact from the Turkic migration wasn't minor at all, most probably between 25% and 30% of the local genetic makeup, but also not that transformative so that all changes since the Bronze Age could be attributed to them.

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    @Dianatopia,

    Modern Albanians cluster with Bronze Age Anatolians? Could you please show me how close they are using an academic PCA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Dianatopia,

    Modern Albanians cluster with Bronze Age Anatolians? Could you please show me how close they are using an academic PCA?
    I have said they are quite close, far closer than Turks. I didn't say they cluster with Western Anatolians. Albanians typically are very close to central Greeks. In the PCA I posted, most Greeks are from Thessaloniki. Which I don't understand. Why would you compare Mycenaean DNA specimens from Bronze Age Pelopponese and Crete to modern Greeks from Macedonia? At the very least you can compare it to the people living in those localities.

    In my opinion, the impact from the Turkic migration wasn't minor at all, most probably between 25% and 30% of the local genetic makeup, but also not that transformative so that all changes since the Bronze Age could be attributed to them.
    You could be right. That is significant admixture though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    I have said they are quite close, far closer than Turks. I didn't say they cluster with Western Anatolians. Albanians typically are very close to central Greeks. In the PCA I posted, most Greeks are from Thessaloniki. Which I don't understand. Why would you compare Mycenaean DNA specimens from Bronze Age Pelopponese and Crete to modern Greeks from Macedonia? At the very least you can compare it to the people living in those localities.



    You could be right. That is significant admixture though.
    I've never understood that either. Makes no sense.

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