Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast
Results 126 to 150 of 170

Thread: Turks are Anatolians under the hood?

  1. #126
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    matadworf's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-17
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    91
    Points
    2,332
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,332, Level: 13
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 118
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek Messinia
    Country: United States



    I"m Peloponnesian Greek (100 %) and typically cluster with NW Greeks, Thessalians, Albanians, Tuscans and/or Central Italians. I have not seen any mainland results anywhere near Anatolia let alone the Greek Islands. In my own results I don't get Islanders in my top 20 so how is it possible to compare Anatolian Greeks to mainlanders?

  2. #127
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    matadworf's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-17
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    91
    Points
    2,332
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,332, Level: 13
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 118
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek Messinia
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    A comparison between Pontic, Cappodocian, Asia minor and Peloponnesian Greeks.
    I've seen literally 100's of mainland Greek results (which are pretty uniform) and most mainland Greeks cluster with other mainlanders; i.e., :Peloponnesians (like myself) with Thessalians, NW Greeks, Macedonians as well as Albanians and Central Italians. This is a grossly inaccurate PCA.

  3. #128
    Regular Member Achievements:
    250 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Lenab's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-12-17
    Posts
    711

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I S24 Saxon
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H Pioneers

    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I've seen literally 100's of mainland Greek results (which are pretty uniform) and most mainland Greeks cluster with other mainlanders; i.e., :Peloponnesians (like myself) with Thessalians, NW Greeks, Macedonians as well as Albanians and Central Italians. This is a grossly inaccurate PCA.
    Pontos ones should be next to Asia Minor.

    All the culture and history came from Anatolia West I wouldn't be that grossed out or insulted.

  4. #129
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    12-03-18
    Posts
    129
    Points
    2,414
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,414, Level: 13
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 36
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #130
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,827
    Points
    309,196
    Level
    100
    Points: 309,196, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    A lot of people place their absolute confidence in the amateur calculators of people like Eurogenes and others of his ilk. Imo, that's not a good idea.

    Stick with the academics, who have all the pertinent samples and know how to use the damn programs they themselves created.

    Just take a look at the latest paper on Crete. Peloponnesians overlap with Sicilians, and some overlap with the people of Crete, and I'm sure if they included a few samples not from Cappadocians but from far western Turkey on the coast there would be a little overlap too.

    What's the big issue here?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  6. #131
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,240
    Points
    12,094
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,094, Level: 33
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    The issue is that academics who have advanced degrees and who have done their hard time in the research lab aren't nearly as qualified or as intelligent as the racist bloggers bc well....uhhh..durrrrr.....they're..uuuuurrr..."pol itically correct" or uh somethin like a dat..yeah dats about it.

    Sadly no matter how educated or qualified you really are, you will never convince anyone with the simplest explanations you can muster
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  7. #132
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered5000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    516
    Points
    5,590
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,590, Level: 22
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 460
    Overall activity: 54.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    The populace was not big from records from the medieval period, so I do not understand what is the issue here

    when venetians took the island after 1204, they state only 110,000 was the cretan populace, they then placed 10000 venetian families on the island ( only place outside of italy and istria where venetian families where allowed to colonise ) , then the last venetian census says

    in 1669, after an unsuccessful attempt to break the siege. Francesco Morosini, the Venetian commander, started negotiations with Fazil Ahmet Pacha, the Grand Vizier who was leading the Ottoman army in person. The 23 year war had strained the resources of both Venice and the Ottoman Empire, so an acceptable agreement was welcome by both parties. The Venetians were allowed to leave Candia without being attacked during this phase. With them most of the population left and many Cretan families settled on Corfu, Zante and Cefalonia, the largest Ionian Islands.


    The last Venetian census, in 1644, showed a Cretan population of 257,066.
    In 1671, according to the first Ottoman census, the total Christian population was 133,370;
    by 1693 it had dropped to 91,230.
    The Christian population of Crete certainly declined.Is this drop in Christian population the result of war and the departure of the Venetians, or is it the effect of Christian conversion to Islam? One traveler estimated that, within a few years of the conquest, 60% of the Cretan population had converted to Islam.

    Another gave the population in1679 as 80,000: 50,000 Christians and 30,000 Muslims.

    so from 1644 a populace of 257066 to war for 23 years, to cretans departure after 1669 to a populace of 133370 ..................thats 125000 cretans died and departed for the ionion islands
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  8. #133
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,827
    Points
    309,196
    Level
    100
    Points: 309,196, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    What the hell does this have to do with the topic, even if it's true?

  9. #134
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    2,990
    Points
    41,444
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,444, Level: 62
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 206
    Overall activity: 99.2%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    The issue is that academics who have advanced degrees and who have done their hard time in the research lab aren't nearly as qualified or as intelligent as the racist bloggers bc well....uhhh..durrrrr.....they're..uuuuurrr..."pol itically correct" or uh somethin like a dat..yeah dats about it.


    Sadly no matter how educated or qualified you really are, you will never convince anyone with the simplest explanations you can muster
    They’re stubborn bc they tend to think they know more than they actually do!

    I pay attention to the Scientists, and much less to the so call Citizen-Scientists.

    The term “Citizen Scientist” is an oxymoron. imo

    Being an amateur expert doesn't make anybody a Genius (besides you, me, and some others) Obviously

  10. #135
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    416
    Points
    6,701
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,701, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The populace was not big from records from the medieval period, so I do not understand what is the issue here

    when venetians took the island after 1204, they state only 110,000 was the cretan populace, they then placed 10000 venetian families on the island ( only place outside of italy and istria where venetian families where allowed to colonise ) , then the last venetian census says

    in 1669, after an unsuccessful attempt to break the siege. Francesco Morosini, the Venetian commander, started negotiations with Fazil Ahmet Pacha, the Grand Vizier who was leading the Ottoman army in person. The 23 year war had strained the resources of both Venice and the Ottoman Empire, so an acceptable agreement was welcome by both parties. The Venetians were allowed to leave Candia without being attacked during this phase. With them most of the population left and many Cretan families settled on Corfu, Zante and Cefalonia, the largest Ionian Islands.


    The last Venetian census, in 1644, showed a Cretan population of 257,066.
    In 1671, according to the first Ottoman census, the total Christian population was 133,370;
    by 1693 it had dropped to 91,230.
    The Christian population of Crete certainly declined.Is this drop in Christian population the result of war and the departure of the Venetians, or is it the effect of Christian conversion to Islam? One traveler estimated that, within a few years of the conquest, 60% of the Cretan population had converted to Islam.

    Another gave the population in1679 as 80,000: 50,000 Christians and 30,000 Muslims.

    so from 1644 a populace of 257066 to war for 23 years, to cretans departure after 1669 to a populace of 133370 ..................thats 125000 cretans died and departed for the ionion islands
    Freaking Venetians, got the Cretans into a 23 year war, made them lose 100,000 people and then they left with their tails between their legs. WTF? ;)

  11. #136
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,827
    Points
    309,196
    Level
    100
    Points: 309,196, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Freaking Venetians, got the Cretans into a 23 year war, made them lose 100,000 people and then they left with their tails between their legs. WTF? ;)
    I think the Italians of the time might have felt the same way about "The Gothic War". :)

    Don't get me wrong; this was a different situation. I wish the Byzantines had won, but by the time they left Italy she was in even a worse condition than after the Goths. The Langobards were the coup de grace.

    Btw, I would take all these figures with a whole truck load of salt. Some of the chronicles would have you believe there were no North Italians left, and the north was completely populated by Langobards. Now, I've always said perhaps they carried some variety of U-152, but if it really was just I1 and U-106, well, grossly exaggerated is putting it mildly.

  12. #137
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered5000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    516
    Points
    5,590
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,590, Level: 22
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 460
    Overall activity: 54.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The populace was not big from records from the medieval period, so I do not understand what is the issue here

    when venetians took the island after 1204, they state only 110,000 was the cretan populace, they then placed 10000 venetian families on the island ( only place outside of italy and istria where venetian families where allowed to colonise ) , then the last venetian census says

    in 1669, after an unsuccessful attempt to break the siege. Francesco Morosini, the Venetian commander, started negotiations with Fazil Ahmet Pacha, the Grand Vizier who was leading the Ottoman army in person. The 23 year war had strained the resources of both Venice and the Ottoman Empire, so an acceptable agreement was welcome by both parties. The Venetians were allowed to leave Candia without being attacked during this phase. With them most of the population left and many Cretan families settled on Corfu, Zante and Cefalonia, the largest Ionian Islands.


    The last Venetian census, in 1644, showed a Cretan population of 257,066.
    In 1671, according to the first Ottoman census, the total Christian population was 133,370;
    by 1693 it had dropped to 91,230.
    The Christian population of Crete certainly declined.Is this drop in Christian population the result of war and the departure of the Venetians, or is it the effect of Christian conversion to Islam? One traveler estimated that, within a few years of the conquest, 60% of the Cretan population had converted to Islam.

    Another gave the population in1679 as 80,000: 50,000 Christians and 30,000 Muslims.

    so from 1644 a populace of 257066 to war for 23 years, to cretans departure after 1669 to a populace of 133370 ..................thats 125000 cretans died and departed for the ionion islands
    oops, placed in wrong thread........the issue if you try to use a mobile phone
    sorry folks

  13. #138
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered5000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    516
    Points
    5,590
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,590, Level: 22
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 460
    Overall activity: 54.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Freaking Venetians, got the Cretans into a 23 year war, made them lose 100,000 people and then they left with their tails between their legs. WTF? ;)
    How did they get the cretans in a war, it was venetian lands ............they tried to keep the muslims at bay
    french and saxons, brunswickers also tried to help the venetians to hold off the turk

    Did you want crete to be a muslim/arab land centuries before it was ?

    your comments are ridiculous

  14. #139
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,827
    Points
    309,196
    Level
    100
    Points: 309,196, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    What is ridiculous is your response to a rather light-hearted comment.

    What's even more ridiculous is that you think, or pretend to think, or want us to think that Venice created its maritime and commercial empire, and, in fact, virtually made colonies of so much of the Greek eastern Mediterranean solely out of concern for the safety of other Christians from the Ottoman Muslims. They were protecting their commercial interests, their MONEY, as the Byzantines before them wanted to re-take Italy.

    How much any of the Western Christian countries acted out of religious motives is unprovable, but they sometimes surely didn't act like it. You do remember the Sack of Constantinople, the wiping out of a CHRISTIAN city by Western Christians I take it, Venetians among the leaders? Did the family stories forget that fact?

    Before you remind us, yes, Genova was no better, if less directly involved.

    The French were much more direct. At times they just allied themselves with the Ottomans.

    If you go by the principle that nations, like people, usually act for their own self-interest, you won't go far wrong.

    My God, with some people is no objectivity possible about the actions of their ancestors???

  15. #140
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered5000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    516
    Points
    5,590
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,590, Level: 22
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 460
    Overall activity: 54.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What is ridiculous is your response to a rather light-hearted comment.

    What's even more ridiculous is that you think, or pretend to think, or want us to think that Venice created its maritime and commercial empire, and, in fact, virtually made colonies of so much of the Greek eastern Mediterranean solely out of concern for the safety of other Christians from the Ottoman Muslims. They were protecting their commercial interests, their MONEY, as the Byzantines before them wanted to re-take Italy.

    How much any of the Western Christian countries acted out of religious motives is unprovable, but they sometimes surely didn't act like it. You do remember the Sack of Constantinople, the wiping out of a CHRISTIAN city by Western Christians I take it, Venetians among the leaders? Did the family stories forget that fact?

    Before you remind us, yes, Genova was no better, if less directly involved.

    The French were much more direct. At times they just allied themselves with the Ottomans.

    If you go by the principle that nations, like people, usually act for their own self-interest, you won't go far wrong.

    My God, with some people is no objectivity possible about the actions of their ancestors???
    the attack on constantinople was due to the franks unable to pay the venetian bill/invoice for the ships it built for the frankish army, the franks where broke.........after the sack, the government of constantinople was frankish it was not venetian

    as for crete, if not venice it would be Genoese, like the bulk of the black sea ports.....if it was neither of them it would be ottoman by the 15th century instead of the 17th century.......its small populace, size of fertile lands and its position in the med would not have made it be left alone.

    There was no religious motive in any land acquistion made by any european power at the time...........even spanish holdings in north africa where not religiously motivated

    you are missing the point, either crete went to a christian country or it became moslem , there is no in between

  16. #141
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,827
    Points
    309,196
    Level
    100
    Points: 309,196, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Yes, we know: it was all the fault of the Franks, no Venetians in the councils or among the looters.

    Go pick up a university level history book for Christ's sake, or even a popularized history of The Fourth Crusade.

    Or even read google.

    The Venetians were heavily involved in all the decisions, and that's the long and the short of it. It's all well documented whether you like it or not.


    "Historians continue to debate the exact reason why the Crusaders then turned on Constantinople instead of Jerusalem, but one crucial ingredient in the troublesome mix of mutual suspicions between the western powers and Byzantium was the Republic of Venice and one man, in particular, the Doge Enrico Dandolo (r. 1192-1205 CE). Intent on winning Venetian domination of the trade in the east, he well remembered his undignified expulsion from Constantinople when he served as an ambassador. This seemed as good an opportunity as ever to finally knock out Constantinople as a trade competitor. In addition, the Pope would achieve the supremacy of the western Church once and for all and the Crusader knights would not only gain revenge on the duplicitous Byzantines for their unhelpful support of previous Crusades but also surely pick up some glory and handsome booty in the process. The riches of Constantinople could then pay for the rest of the Crusade as it marched on to Jerusalem. It may not have been so cynically planned by all parties but, in the end, it is exactly what happened with the exception that the Fourth Crusade ended with the fall of the Byzantine capital and Jerusalem was left for a later date."

    ""Alexios Doukas, known as Mourtzouphlos or "Bushy-Browed" attempted to put up a serious defence of his capital against unfavourable odds. For now Doge Dandolo and the Crusaders saw their golden opportunity not just to receive aid from the Byzantines but to loot the city entirely for all it was worth. "

    "With the fall of the city, many of its religious icons, relics, and artworks were spirited away and the ByzantineEmpire was divided up between Venice and its allies."

    " After the dust settled and everyone had their fill of pillaging and looting, the Partitio Romaniae treaty, already decided on beforehand, carved up the Byzantine Empire amongst Venice and its allies. The Venetians took three-eighths of Constantinople, the Ionian islands, Crete, Euboea, Andros, Naxos, and a few strategic points along the coast of the Sea of Marmara. Baldwin of Flanders was then made the Latin emperor (r. 1204-1205 CE) and crowned in the Hagia Sophia, receiving five-eighths of Constantinople and one-quarter of the empire which included Thrace, northwest Asia Minor, and several Aegean islands (notably Chios, Lesbos, and Samos). Boniface of Montferrat took over Thessalonica and formed a new kingdomthere which also included Athens and Macedonia. In 1205 CE, following the death of Baldwin in a Bulgarian prison, William I Champlitte and Geoffrey I Villehardouin (nephew of the historian of the same name) founded a Latin principality in the Peloponnese while the French duke Othon de la Roche grabbed Attica and Boeotia."

    https://www.ancient.eu/article/1188/...onstantinople/

    Post another deliberate "distortion" of the facts, and you'll get an infraction and I'll further delete the post. Then the infractions can total up under Torzio as well as Sile.

    Are we clear????

  17. #142
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered5000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    516
    Points
    5,590
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,590, Level: 22
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 460
    Overall activity: 54.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, we know: it was all the fault of the Franks, no Venetians in the councils or among the looters.

    Go pick up a university level history book for Christ's sake, or even a popularized history of The Fourth Crusade.

    Or even read google.

    The Venetians were heavily involved in all the decisions, and that's the long and the short of it. It's all well documented whether you like it or not.


    "Historians continue to debate the exact reason why the Crusaders then turned on Constantinople instead of Jerusalem, but one crucial ingredient in the troublesome mix of mutual suspicions between the western powers and Byzantium was the Republic of Venice and one man, in particular, the Doge Enrico Dandolo (r. 1192-1205 CE). Intent on winning Venetian domination of the trade in the east, he well remembered his undignified expulsion from Constantinople when he served as an ambassador. This seemed as good an opportunity as ever to finally knock out Constantinople as a trade competitor. In addition, the Pope would achieve the supremacy of the western Church once and for all and the Crusader knights would not only gain revenge on the duplicitous Byzantines for their unhelpful support of previous Crusades but also surely pick up some glory and handsome booty in the process. The riches of Constantinople could then pay for the rest of the Crusade as it marched on to Jerusalem. It may not have been so cynically planned by all parties but, in the end, it is exactly what happened with the exception that the Fourth Crusade ended with the fall of the Byzantine capital and Jerusalem was left for a later date."

    ""Alexios Doukas, known as Mourtzouphlos or "Bushy-Browed" attempted to put up a serious defence of his capital against unfavourable odds. For now Doge Dandolo and the Crusaders saw their golden opportunity not just to receive aid from the Byzantines but to loot the city entirely for all it was worth. "

    "With the fall of the city, many of its religious icons, relics, and artworks were spirited away and the ByzantineEmpire was divided up between Venice and its allies."

    " After the dust settled and everyone had their fill of pillaging and looting, the Partitio Romaniae treaty, already decided on beforehand, carved up the Byzantine Empire amongst Venice and its allies. The Venetians took three-eighths of Constantinople, the Ionian islands, Crete, Euboea, Andros, Naxos, and a few strategic points along the coast of the Sea of Marmara. Baldwin of Flanders was then made the Latin emperor (r. 1204-1205 CE) and crowned in the Hagia Sophia, receiving five-eighths of Constantinople and one-quarter of the empire which included Thrace, northwest Asia Minor, and several Aegean islands (notably Chios, Lesbos, and Samos). Boniface of Montferrat took over Thessalonica and formed a new kingdomthere which also included Athens and Macedonia. In 1205 CE, following the death of Baldwin in a Bulgarian prison, William I Champlitte and Geoffrey I Villehardouin (nephew of the historian of the same name) founded a Latin principality in the Peloponnese while the French duke Othon de la Roche grabbed Attica and Boeotia."

    https://www.ancient.eu/article/1188/...onstantinople/

    Post another deliberate "distortion" of the facts, and you'll get an infraction and I'll further delete the post. Then the infractions can total up under Torzio as well as Sile.

    Are we clear????

    It wasn’t just the West that had troubled the Venetians in this period. The concessions they had been granted by Byzantine emperors became a source of friction. In 1171 the Byzantine Emperor felt ready for a drastic move and suddenly arrested all the Venetians in his empire and seized their properties.
    Venetian’s retaliation came in 1204. This is the date of the Fourth Crusade, what proved to be the most profitable transaction in Venetian history. The Venetians had played a fairly passive role in the previous expeditions to reclaim the Holy Land from the Infidels for their situation in fact was already extremely favourable in the Mediterranean.
    Yet, in 1204 the Venetians became protagonists.

    The crusaders asked the Venetians to provide them with transportation to the Holy Land and in return they agreed to repay them with an exorbitant sum of money. The time came for the crusaders to depart, but not all the money had yet been paid. Instead of making for the Holy Land, they set sail for Constantinople… This is an obscure page of history, full of intrigues… To be brief, in the end Constantinople was captured and sacked for three days.

    The Fourth Crusade and the Sack of Constantinople


    Jonathan Phillips sees one of the most notorious events in European history as a typical ‘clash of cultures’.



    Jonathan Phillips | Published in History Today Volume 54 Issue 5 May 2004

  18. #143
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,071
    Points
    5,328
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,328, Level: 21
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 26.0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #144
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    416
    Points
    6,701
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,701, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    It wasn’t just the West that had troubled the Venetians in this period. The concessions they had been granted by Byzantine emperors became a source of friction. In 1171 the Byzantine Emperor felt ready for a drastic move and suddenly arrested all the Venetians in his empire and seized their properties.
    Venetian’s retaliation came in 1204. This is the date of the Fourth Crusade, what proved to be the most profitable transaction in Venetian history. The Venetians had played a fairly passive role in the previous expeditions to reclaim the Holy Land from the Infidels for their situation in fact was already extremely favourable in the Mediterranean.
    Yet, in 1204 the Venetians became protagonists.

    The crusaders asked the Venetians to provide them with transportation to the Holy Land and in return they agreed to repay them with an exorbitant sum of money. The time came for the crusaders to depart, but not all the money had yet been paid. Instead of making for the Holy Land, they set sail for Constantinople… This is an obscure page of history, full of intrigues… To be brief, in the end Constantinople was captured and sacked for three days.

    The Fourth Crusade and the Sack of Constantinople




    Jonathan Phillips sees one of the most notorious events in European history as a typical ‘clash of cultures’.



    Jonathan Phillips | Published in History Today Volume 54 Issue 5 May 2004
    I will never ever defend the Byzantine Empire. I have some choice words for them. It was 11 centuries of corruption, palace coups, poisonings, heavy taxation and did I mention corruption? Just to set the record straight. But the so called crusades were nothing but an opportunity for the leaders of those crusades to enrich themselves at the expense of the local populations whose cities were sacked, their women raped, their crops confiscated or burned and their animals stolen. The Crusaders caused more damage than the rest of invaders combined (OK, maybe I am exaggerating a little, but only a little). They left the Byzantines ripe to be invaded by first the Seltzuk Turks and then the Ottoman Turks. Thanks, buddies!

  20. #145
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered5000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    516
    Points
    5,590
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,590, Level: 22
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 460
    Overall activity: 54.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    correct
    the why it happened and aftermath is how you discuss history

  21. #146
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered5000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    516
    Points
    5,590
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,590, Level: 22
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 460
    Overall activity: 54.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I will never ever defend the Byzantine Empire. I have some choice words for them. It was 11 centuries of corruption, palace coups, poisonings, heavy taxation and did I mention corruption? Just to set the record straight. But the so called crusades were nothing but an opportunity for the leaders of those crusades to enrich themselves at the expense of the local populations whose cities were sacked, their women raped, their crops confiscated or burned and their animals stolen. The Crusaders caused more damage than the rest of invaders combined (OK, maybe I am exaggerating a little, but only a little). They left the Byzantines ripe to be invaded by first the Seltzuk Turks and then the Ottoman Turks. Thanks, buddies!
    agree................religion had nothing to do with it even if the pope led the charge
    there has never been a religious government had has succeed in bringing harmony to its people.

  22. #147
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,071
    Points
    5,328
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,328, Level: 21
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 26.0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I will never ever defend the Byzantine Empire. I have some choice words for them. It was 11 centuries of corruption, palace coups, poisonings, heavy taxation and did I mention corruption? Just to set the record straight. But the so called crusades were nothing but an opportunity for the leaders of those crusades to enrich themselves at the expense of the local populations whose cities were sacked, their women raped, their crops confiscated or burned and their animals stolen. The Crusaders caused more damage than the rest of invaders combined (OK, maybe I am exaggerating a little, but only a little). They left the Byzantines ripe to be invaded by first the Seltzuk Turks and then the Ottoman Turks. Thanks, buddies!
    There was a way to avoid the Ottoman invasion, recognizing the Papal primacy.

  23. #148
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,827
    Points
    309,196
    Level
    100
    Points: 309,196, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    correct
    the why it happened and aftermath is how you discuss history
    Then there are those who pretend their ancestors never committed any foul deeds, provoked or not, whose motives were always pure, never crass greed.

  24. #149
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,827
    Points
    309,196
    Level
    100
    Points: 309,196, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    As always, imo, many of you take extreme positions, out of either hyper and uncritical nationalism, or atheism, or lack of detailed knowledge.

    Human events, even great human events, are rarely as simple as some of you make them out to be.

    There were a lot of reasons why people went on the Crusades, and to deny the religious element is to deny history. Were some just rapacious merchants eager for more markets and to cut out the Byzantines as middlemen, some second sons hungry for land, some men escaping from crime, some dragged along by their lords? Of course there were. Maybe they were even the majority. Who knows?

    There were innocents too, however. What of the "Children's Crusade", none of which children even made it there? He was completely incompetent, but it really looks as if King Louis IX (Saint Louis, by the way) was sincere in his religion. We can tell from the writings of the time that emotions had been stoked high by tales of the slaughter of Christian pilgrims in the east and Christian religious sites being desecrated, tales which were largely true, if probably exaggerated. That motivated people.

    For goodness' sakes, that sort of thing motivates people today. Don't you read the news?

    Then there's the age old and ever present curse of ignorance and incompetence. The Franks and the knights from the Rhine in particular had no clue what they were doing, and refused to take advice. The only leader who had a good shot at a treaty allowing access to the holy sites was Frederick, and he could have done it with no war, but the other leaders hated him, and so, among other reasons, there went that.

    Why do some of you always just try to score points for one side or the other instead of trying to "understand" it, and maybe, just maybe, learn from it?

    Fwiw, I sincerely doubt that even a unified "Christian" front would have saved the east from the Muslims. The Byzantines were too weak by that point to help much. They eventually got to the very gates of Vienna let's not forget, and almost took the whole Mediterranean.

  25. #150
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,211
    Points
    41,287
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,287, Level: 62
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 363
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    There was a way to avoid the Ottoman invasion, recognizing the Papal primacy.



    again religious stupidity?



    recogn the papal supremacy,hm, but who should do this?
    the east Roman nobility? who lost and disband and were attacked? if they recogn papal supremacy they would have been restored?
    or the crusaders of 4rth Crusade? who collapse the stability and brought Latinocracy? were n't they on a 'bless mission'?


    As always and typical of you,
    you think and post only poison and hate,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •