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Thread: Impact of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age on Iberia

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Which proofs do you have for Celtic or Indoeuropean in the Iberian half of the valley?
    I thought there was no doubt about the Celtic substratum of the Ebro Valley, not to mention Catalonia with the fields of urns that predated the Iberian culture, both later Iberianized areas, could not the same happen in the southeast with the Algar culture?

    The Iberian culture was undoubtedly expansive, since it was a culture with Mediterranean, Phoenician and Greek bases, more advanced than the Indo-European interior that was gradually assimilating these Mediterranean influences, going from an organization in tribes to the beginning of the construction of cities , process that was stopped by the invasion of the Roman Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    I thought there was no doubt about the Celtic substratum of the Ebro Valley, not to mention Catalonia with the fields of urns that predated the Iberian culture, both later Iberianized areas, could not the same happen in the southeast with the Algar culture?

    The Iberian culture was undoubtedly expansive, since it was a culture with Mediterranean, Phoenician and Greek bases, more advanced than the Indo-European interior that was gradually assimilating these Mediterranean influences, going from an organization in tribes to the beginning of the construction of cities , process that was stopped by the invasion of the Roman Empire.
    I was asking about linguistic proofs, urns could be religious assimilation as well as the result of Celtic migrations of course, but you need to deliver proofs instead to provide dubious info
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I was asking about linguistic proofs, urns could be religious assimilation as well as the result of Celtic migrations of course, but you need to deliver proofs instead to provide dubious info
    Man I can not provide evidence, I have read several authors that I consider experts in this subject that claim the existence of a Celtic substrate in the Ebro valley to which the Iberian substrate was superimposed, in addition the Celtiberians who were Celtic tribes wrote with writing Iberica, that is, there was a process already under way in the Iberian Peninsula in which the cultures of Mediteranean influence were progressively entering the interior, I say culture because the Celts and Iberians in the Iberian Peninsula are seeing that genetically they were the same people.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't think the "Celt-Iberians" and the "Iberians" were necessarily all identical genetically. I think the amalgamation might have taken place later during the Reconquista.

    One of the sane modelers produced this and posted it at Eurogenes:

    "Spanish_Extremadura
    Iberia_BA 73 %
    Armenia_EBA 17.8 %
    Mozabite 9 %
    Bonda 0.1 %
    Globular_Amphora 0 %
    Anatolia_BA 0 %
    Remedello_BA 0 %
    Iberia_ChL 0 %
    Balkans_IA:I5769 0.1 %
    d 0.024%"

    The Copper Age technology and all the y dna "J" in Iberia had to come from somewhere.

    We need more samples from certain areas and time periods.


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    ROS, to read experts... it's good but if you can't come here with proofs you are surely a victim of the hocus-pocus made in humanistic sciences. The Celtiberians being similar geneticaly to Iberians is another gratuite assumption not backed by any proof yet.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I see hardly any difference as well. Iberia EN is a tad more southern than central, but still pretty much the same! Every early Neolithic group from Hungary to Ireland is the same.
    It is not exactly what more than a survey says: they were roughly alike, but not the SAME ONES - Irelande ones were closer to Iberian ones, apparently, and FBK of Sweden and the Gurgy ones were between, and Central Europe ones were a bit farther?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think the "Celt-Iberians" and the "Iberians" were necessarily all identical genetically. I think the amalgamation might have taken place later during the Reconquista.

    One of the sane modelers produced this and posted it at Eurogenes:

    "Spanish_Extremadura
    Iberia_BA 73 %
    Armenia_EBA 17.8 %
    Mozabite 9 %
    Bonda 0.1 %
    Globular_Amphora 0 %
    Anatolia_BA 0 %
    Remedello_BA 0 %
    Iberia_ChL 0 %
    Balkans_IA:I5769 0.1 %
    d 0.024%"

    The Copper Age technology and all the y dna "J" in Iberia had to come from somewhere.

    We need more samples from certain areas and time periods.
    Out of curiosity, keeping to this model and adding some samples we might consider Celtic or related:

    [1] "distance%=1.717"

    Spanish_Extremadura

    Iberia_BA,49.2
    England_Roman,28.2
    Mozabite,12.4
    Armenia_EBA,10.2

    [1] "distance%=1.8109"

    Spanish_Extremadura

    Iberia_BA,54
    Ireland_EBA,23
    Mozabite,12.2
    Armenia_EBA,10.8


    A British or EBA Irish sample is quite possibly more northern than anything Celtic that went down to Iberia which might inflate the Mozabite somewhat (related, in the recent paper their NorthMorocco+WesternSahara estimate for the combined western cluster that includes Extremadura was 8.95 to keep us grounded via another method). But this improves the distance a decent amount (down from 2.4%) without overfitting and radically decreases the Armenia_EBA-like part.

    The addition of something "Celtic" also changes the preference from Armenia_EBA to Anatolia_BA which might be a likelier source and decreases the distance:

    [1] "distance%=1.3491"

    Spanish_Extremadura

    Iberia_BA,37
    England_Roman,36.2
    Anatolia_BA,15.6
    Mozabite,11.2

    And an alternative to British-Irish stuff that's really closely related to them nonetheless:


    [1] "distance%=1.3835"

    Spanish_Extremadura

    Beaker_Central_Europe,38.4
    Iberia_BA,37.4
    Anatolia_BA,12.8
    Mozabite,11.4

    [1] "distance%=1.5069"

    Spanish_Extremadura

    Iberia_BA,39.4
    Beaker_Central_Europe,36.4
    Anatolia_ChL,12.2
    Mozabite,12

    If you add some Levant_BA as proxy for Phoenician influences or something along those lines:

    [1] "distance%=1.2355"

    Spanish_Extremadura

    Iberia_BA,38.2
    England_Roman,36.8
    Mozabite,9.6
    Anatolia_BA,9.2
    Levant_BA,6.2

    The Mozabite and Anatolia predictably drop and the distance decreases with no overfitting. If you add Mycenaean instead of Anatolia_BA, basically sibling populations:

    [1] "distance%=1.3407"

    Spanish_Extremadura

    England_Roman,37.8
    Iberia_BA,36.8
    Levant_BA,9
    Mozabite,9
    Mycenaean,7.4

    Of course all these are very simplistic abstractions that give you the very general feel of what might have happened, especially with no sampling over time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    ROS, to read experts... it's good but if you can't come here with proofs you are surely a victim of the hocus-pocus made in humanistic sciences. The Celtiberians being similar geneticaly to Iberians is another gratuite assumption not backed by any proof yet.
    ok, you are going to make me understand the Iberian world, first question, the Catalans who do not have, apparently, North African descent, are like pre-Roman Iberian or Celtic people?


    The excess of R1b (apparently steppe) that exists in Catalonia (I refer to Catalonia as I could refer to Asturias, Galicia, Cantabria, Euskadi that developed the reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula) that represents the genetic orgen of what we currently call Spain were Celtas or were Iberians, we must bear in mind that the reconquest had its importance, but clear light years of what happened in England with a sutitucion of the population of 90%, a population that in some areas outnumber the Basques in R1b, R1b that allow the expression, has not found the father in the steppe.


    But good @Plomo, explain us to the "humanists" that excess R1b in the area. theoretically not IE, the explanation for the Basques does not help me, 90% R1b steppe, and according to Basque experts have 0% steppe (I have seen a very convincing video related to atapuerca), this together that the father has not been found in the This step completely destroys the relationship between the western R1b and the steppe.


    But good @Plomo clarify all this. especially where was the father R1b western with the steppe?
    Last edited by ROS; 17-03-18 at 03:34.

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    The point is that something much more "southeastern" is required, and may not have arrived only with the Moorish invasion.

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    Steppe admixture/R1b in Catalonia could be due by:

    1) "Reflux" Beakers from Central Europe Late CA
    2) Polada/Rhone culture influx ("las asas de ap茅ndice de bot贸n") in the MBA
    3) Urnenfelders of the RSFO group, LBA

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Steppe admixture/R1b in Catalonia could be due by:

    1) "Reflux" Beakers from Central Europe Late CA
    2) Polada/Rhone culture influx ("las asas de ap茅ndice de bot贸n") in the MBA
    3) Urnenfelders of the RSFO group, LBA

    Utilizzando Tapatalk
    There's no "reflux" Beakers. We now know that the Iberian Beakers did not migrate to Central Europe. The Central European Beakers are a mix of steppe people and MN/LN people in the area.

    Urnfield may have brought some U-152. I doubt they brought all that DF27. It's quite amazing, btw, that so much of this yDna could be present, but so little actual steppe ancestry.

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    [QUOTE = Cat.; 535384]Steppe admixture/R1b in Catalonia could be due by:

    1) "Reflux" Beakers from Central Europe Late CA
    2) Polada/Rhone culture influx ("las asas de ap茅ndice de bot贸n") in the MBA
    3) Urnenfelders of the RSFO group, LBA

    Utilizzando Tapatalk [/ QUOTE]

    It seems to me that Western R1b and steppe are not very related.


    Indo-European and steppe are partially related.


    They are comments from an amateur, self-taught and not university in this matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's no "reflux" Beakers. We now know that the Iberian Beakers did not migrate to Central Europe. The Central European Beakers are a mix of steppe people and MN/LN people in the area.

    Urnfield may have brought some U-152. I doubt they brought all that DF27. It's quite amazing, btw, that so much of this yDna could be present, but so little actual steppe ancestry.
    Well, i dont know...i'm still waiting for more samples from Portugal (Zambujal culture and company) where it seems to have originated

    I agree about the U152 and the Urnfield but it could also be of Middle Bronze Age origin , the people who brought the pottery with "ap茅ndice de bot贸n" came from Southern France (U152 rich area)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post

    It seems to me that Western R1b and steppe are not very related.
    In origin maybe not but after 2500 BC yes, Bell Beakers were uniformely R1b and steppe admixed

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Agree with you. Caesar, it seems, inflated a bit the number of "his" vanquished people; and Sardinia, a stone surrounded by sea, has never been the land for huge demographic colonization, as its today population seem still showing; so, crossings, mixing, but not at a high scale.
    Celts in Eastern Andalusia? I dont think so. THis region had surely a denser pop than a lot of other regions of Spain, with long tradition of evolved cultures, among them CHA and BA El Argar I suppose come from East Mediterranea and not Steppes via North.
    apart and answering other posts:
    Mozarab is a linguistic term (not the best it's true) and was a latin dialect of central and southern Iberia under Muslims controle; it had some intermediary Ibero-latin traits but for I know had not the peculiarities shared by Galician and Portuguese; it conserved the initial F- as other Iberian dialects at the exception of Castillan (H-) but it is not a typical trait - I can go deeper in details if someone wants but it is not the very thread and others can surely do the same as me. Today Andaluse seems a Castillan dialect spoken by different people, with very different phonetic habits -
    For Urnfields, I don't know for Spain but in other parts of Western Europe it has implied pops moves and increase in demic densities, with some anthropologic traces from Northern-Central Europe in France Rh么ne region by example. Only Celts, not sure, I don't know. We can suppose they were Celtic speaking in Iberia, at least the elites, spite we can also suppose other Celts were arrived in Northern Spain already before them. Maybe a wave of archaic Celtic speakers, like in Ireland? Unsteady ground without proof.
    According to some scholars, Iberic language would have had some Basque- or Aquitan-like loanwords as well as some Celtic loanwords.For me it could have been absent at first in Andalusia/Murcia... ATW a not negligeable number of words seem of a common origin in Basque and Iberic and general phonetical tendancies link both, with a slight opposition to Aquitanian; I wonder if the Iberic basis would not have been a far cousin of Aquitano-Basque or "Gasco-Aquitanian", with modern Basque being a Gasco-Aquitanian imported more recently into South the Pyrenees, and submitted there to common phonetic habits proper to some ancient Iberia folks and a bit different from the North Pyrenees habits?
    I would be glad to can date the first apparition of the lineages of DF27 in Iberia; when and where?
    I agree with all of that, which leaves me with nothing to say. :)

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    The argaric culture had its origin in Ireland (as the archeologists of the bastide commented) or in the eastern Mediterranean? In this, the archaeologists published in the press that Argaric genetics contained the current genetic parameters of the Iberians, were Western R1b in 2500 before Christ or not ?, have not had more news of these genetic investigations, why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree with all of that, which leaves me with nothing to say. :)
    But the western R1b is steppe or aquitano-ibero-euskaldun?


    Or a mixture between both that resulted in lengas IE and not IE?


    They are amateur doubts.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    The argaric culture had its origin in Ireland (as the archeologists of the bastide commented) or in the eastern Mediterranean? In this, the archaeologists published in the press that Argaric genetics contained the current genetic parameters of the Iberians, were Western R1b in 2500 before Christ or not ?, have not had more news of these genetic investigations, why?
    Well correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the pottery of the El Argar culture beaker like? What's that got to do with the Eastern Mediterranean exactly? And where is the proof of Eastern Mediterranean presence anywhere in the Western Mediterranean in 2000 bc? They built urban sites like la Bastida de Totana but they didn't leave a single fragment of pottery or Aegean like object in Murcia? This whole theory theory seems completely unreasonable to me and based on a few very loose similarities like the tholos (that by the way existed in Neolithic France in a primitive form since the fifth millenium bc as testified by the cairn of Barnenez )or the cist burials, that's it. To me it's obvious that they were just Iberians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    Well correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the pottery of the El Argar culture beaker like? What's that got to do with the Eastern Mediterranean exactly? And where is the proof of Eastern Mediterranean presence anywhere in the Western Mediterranean in 2000 bc? They built urban sites like la Bastida but they didn't leave a single fragment of pottery or Aegean like object in Murcia? This whole theory theory seems completely unreasonable to me and based on a few very loose similarities like the tholos (that by the way existed in Neolithic France in a primitive form since the fifth millenium bc as testified by the cairn of Barnenez )or the cist burials, that's it. To me it's obvious that they were just Iberians.
    It is not that where I live is surrounded by archaeological sites of the Argaric culture, but that spectacular news is launched through the press, namely:


    - The largest city of its time in Europe, the bastide, compared it with Troy.
    - According to the genetic analyzes, Argarians had the same genetic parameters of the current Iberians, 2,200 years before Christ.
    - The archaeologists who were from a Catalan University, apart from complaining about the lack of funds, commented that the origin of argaric males were in southern Russia, which had reached the Iberian peninsula through Ireland, Galicia and Portugal .


    All this that was a deception or is it true?


    And because it has not been known more about the issue?


    In all this investigation of Olade there is not a single argaric copy.
    Last edited by ROS; 17-03-18 at 11:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    It is not that where I live is surrounded by archaeological sites of the Argaric culture, but that spectacular news is launched through the press, namely:


    - The largest city of its time in Europe, the bastide, compared it with Troy.
    - According to the genetic analyzes, Argarians had the same genetic parameters of the current Iberians, 2,500 years before Christ.
    - The archaeologists who were from a Catalan University, apart from complaining about the lack of funds, commented that the origin of argaric males were in southern Russia, which had reached the Iberian peninsula through Ireland, Galicia and Portugal .


    All this that was a deception or is it true?


    And because it has not been known more about the issue?


    In all this investigation of Olade there is not a single argaric copy.
    At the time (2200 bc) there were some small urban sites in the Aegean like Troy, Poliochni, Keros, Syros, they like La Bastida de Totana in Murcia were all very small compared to modern cities and most of them didn't reach a population of more than 1,000 inhabitants during that period, but they had certain features like urban planning that earn them the title of urban sites. The fact that Murcia is one of the very few places in Europe where urban sites, albeit small, developed in 2000 bc is surely noteworthy. Other than Murcia and the Aegean, there were some small stone villages in Southern France belonging to the Fontbouisse culture which could realistically have had some relationship with the El Argar culture, but the Fontbouisse settlements were all very small and didn't display any urban feature and the fortifications themselves were very rare and small scale, in it's been put forward that Sardinia received some influence from the Fontbouisse culture during this period, which seems plausible to me, at the time Sardinian was home to an uniform culture known as the Monte Claro culture which did have some large scale fortifications and settlements displaying proto urban features, though smaller than those of Murcia from what I gathered. A connection has been put forward between the Monte Claro and El Argar because of their swords looking alike but I don't know if such a thing can be plausible. I don't know of other sites displaying urban features at time in Europe apart from those I've mentioned, but while the settlements of the Aegean went on to become the great Minoan civilization, not only did the El Argar sites stagnate but they were also abandoned and people went back to living in sparse unprotected villages in the area from what I understand. Another difference would be that the El Argar towns were all fortified citadels whereas the Cycladic towns were mostly unprotected and somewhat bigger on average. So no La Bastida de Totana wasn't the largest I think there were bigger sites in what is now Greece but I think it can be classified as a city though I'm not an expert on the El Argar culture.

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    "MOESAN" Today Andaluse seems a Castillan dialect spoken by different people, with very different phonetic habits -

    Phonetic habits nothing more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    But the western R1b is steppe or aquitano-ibero-euskaldun?


    Or a mixture between both that resulted in lengas IE and not IE?


    They are amateur doubts.
    From the evidence we have so far, it seems to me that while there may have been R1b-V88 in the Balkans and other places as well, DF27, U152, , S21 (U-106) and L21, or more precisely the lines that led to them, came from far eastern Europe and carried steppe ancestry.
    Last edited by Angela; 17-03-18 at 17:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    ok, you are going to make me understand the Iberian world, first question, the Catalans who do not have, apparently, North African descent, are like pre-Roman Iberian or Celtic people?
    The excess of R1b (apparently steppe) that exists in Catalonia (I refer to Catalonia as I could refer to Asturias, Galicia, Cantabria, Euskadi that developed the reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula) that represents the genetic orgen of what we currently call Spain were Celtas or were Iberians, we must bear in mind that the reconquest had its importance, but clear light years of what happened in England with a sutitucion of the population of 90%, a population that in some areas outnumber the Basques in R1b, R1b that allow the expression, has not found the father in the steppe.
    But good @Plomo, explain us to the "humanists" that excess R1b in the area. theoretically not IE, the explanation for the Basques does not help me, 90% R1b steppe, and according to Basque experts have 0% steppe (I have seen a very convincing video related to atapuerca), this together that the father has not been found in the This step completely destroys the relationship between the western R1b and the steppe.
    But good @Plomo clarify all this. especially where was the father R1b western with the steppe?
    I can't compare actual Catalans with Celts (which ones? Irish? Allobroges?) or Iberians, as they incinerated their death, so no ancient DNA, and that got from exposed skulls in Ullastrell which ressembles actual Catalan DNA is not to take into account as they could be war prisioners from away or local people that suffered death penalty. Moreover actual Catalans have Roman, Arab and French DNA.



    For R1b and steppe I don't understand well what do you ask, but I don't have reliable proofs about being steppe. Speaking about proofs it seems I will not have the proofs for Celtic spoken in NE Spain.

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    The haplogroups of Galera's man and the boy next to him were not known.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    The haplogroups of Galera's man and the boy next to him were not known.
    But is that known?

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