Impact of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age on Iberia

[berun]

The authors run an unsupervised 2K-20K ADMIXTURE (supp S3). The Bronze Age Iberians R1b have 0% CHG in all K, but once the authors run a supervised ADMIXTURE they get 10-20% Yamnaya. Someone with more understanding could explain how they can do such hocus-pocus?

 

[Cato]

Modern-day Sardinians have been suggested to be relatively direct descendants of the early Neolithic individuals

A bit OT but why do they keep using the HGDP Sardinians as a reference? From the Chiang et al. study we have learned that the most populated areas of the island are 10% circa "yamnaya" and less EEF/WHG, probably some punic influence also

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[Angela]

A bit OT but why do they keep using the HGDP Sardinians as a reference? From the Chiang et al. study we have learned that the most populated areas of the island are 10% circa "yamnaya" and less EEF/WHG, probably some punic influence also

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Because Cavalli-Sforza, who chose the area where the HGDP samples were to be drawn, knew what he was about, and almost everyone of those samples is from the plateau around Ogliastra.

 

[Cato]

Because Cavalli-Sforza, who chose the area where the HGDP samples were to be drawn, knew what he was about, and almost everyone of those samples is from the plateau around Ogliastra.

I know, obviously Ogliastra is not representative of the whole region... no Beaker finds and likely much less Punic, Roman, Vandal (?) settlements not to mention the Medieval period (migrations of Italians, Iberians), when some coastal cities (not in Ogliastra) were populated by Tuscans, Catalans and Corsicans and Ligurians

End OT

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[Pygmalion]

A bit OT but why do they keep using the HGDP Sardinians as a reference? From the Chiang et al. study we have learned that the most populated areas of the island are 10% circa "yamnaya" and less EEF/WHG, probably some punic influence also

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Sardinians are 10% Yamnaya? Where did you read this?

 

[ROS]

Which proofs do you have for Celtic or Indoeuropean in the Iberian half of the valley?

I thought there was no doubt about the Celtic substratum of the Ebro Valley, not to mention Catalonia with the fields of urns that predated the Iberian culture, both later Iberianized areas, could not the same happen in the southeast with the Algar culture?

The Iberian culture was undoubtedly expansive, since it was a culture with Mediterranean, Phoenician and Greek bases, more advanced than the Indo-European interior that was gradually assimilating these Mediterranean influences, going from an organization in tribes to the beginning of the construction of cities , process that was stopped by the invasion of the Roman Empire.

 

[berun]

I thought there was no doubt about the Celtic substratum of the Ebro Valley, not to mention Catalonia with the fields of urns that predated the Iberian culture, both later Iberianized areas, could not the same happen in the southeast with the Algar culture?

The Iberian culture was undoubtedly expansive, since it was a culture with Mediterranean, Phoenician and Greek bases, more advanced than the Indo-European interior that was gradually assimilating these Mediterranean influences, going from an organization in tribes to the beginning of the construction of cities , process that was stopped by the invasion of the Roman Empire.

I was asking about linguistic proofs, urns could be religious assimilation as well as the result of Celtic migrations of course, but you need to deliver proofs instead to provide dubious info

 

[ROS]

I was asking about linguistic proofs, urns could be religious assimilation as well as the result of Celtic migrations of course, but you need to deliver proofs instead to provide dubious info

Man I can not provide evidence, I have read several authors that I consider experts in this subject that claim the existence of a Celtic substrate in the Ebro valley to which the Iberian substrate was superimposed, in addition the Celtiberians who were Celtic tribes wrote with writing Iberica, that is, there was a process already under way in the Iberian Peninsula in which the cultures of Mediteranean influence were progressively entering the interior, I say culture because the Celts and Iberians in the Iberian Peninsula are seeing that genetically they were the same people.

 

[Angela]

I don't think the "Celt-Iberians" and the "Iberians" were necessarily all identical genetically. I think the amalgamation might have taken place later during the Reconquista.

One of the sane modelers produced this and posted it at Eurogenes:

"Spanish_Extremadura
Iberia_BA 73 %
Armenia_EBA 17.8 %
Mozabite 9 %
Bonda 0.1 %
Globular_Amphora 0 %
Anatolia_BA 0 %
Remedello_BA 0 %
Iberia_ChL 0 %
Balkans_IA:I5769 0.1 %
d 0.024%"

The Copper Age technology and all the y dna "J" in Iberia had to come from somewhere.

We need more samples from certain areas and time periods.

 

[berun]

ROS, to read experts... it's good but if you can't come here with proofs you are surely a victim of the hocus-pocus made in humanistic sciences. The Celtiberians being similar geneticaly to Iberians is another gratuite assumption not backed by any proof yet.

 

[MOESAN]

I see hardly any difference as well. Iberia EN is a tad more southern than central, but still pretty much the same! Every early Neolithic group from Hungary to Ireland is the same.

It is not exactly what more than a survey says: they were roughly alike, but not the SAME ONES - Irelande ones were closer to Iberian ones, apparently, and FBK of Sweden and the Gurgy ones were between, and Central Europe ones were a bit farther?

 

[LATGAL]

I don't think the "Celt-Iberians" and the "Iberians" were necessarily all identical genetically. I think the amalgamation might have taken place later during the Reconquista.

One of the sane modelers produced this and posted it at Eurogenes:

"Spanish_Extremadura
Iberia_BA 73 %
Armenia_EBA 17.8 %
Mozabite 9 %
Bonda 0.1 %
Globular_Amphora 0 %
Anatolia_BA 0 %
Remedello_BA 0 %
Iberia_ChL 0 %
Balkans_IA:I5769 0.1 %
d 0.024%"

The Copper Age technology and all the y dna "J" in Iberia had to come from somewhere.

We need more samples from certain areas and time periods.

Out of curiosity, keeping to this model and adding some samples we might consider Celtic or related:

[1] "distance%=1.717"

Spanish_Extremadura

Iberia_BA,49.2
England_Roman,28.2
Mozabite,12.4
Armenia_EBA,10.2

[1] "distance%=1.8109"

Spanish_Extremadura

Iberia_BA,54
Ireland_EBA,23
Mozabite,12.2
Armenia_EBA,10.8


A British or EBA Irish sample is quite possibly more northern than anything Celtic that went down to Iberia which might inflate the Mozabite somewhat (related, in the recent paper their NorthMorocco+WesternSahara estimate for the combined western cluster that includes Extremadura was 8.95 to keep us grounded via another method). But this improves the distance a decent amount (down from 2.4%) without overfitting and radically decreases the Armenia_EBA-like part.

The addition of something "Celtic" also changes the preference from Armenia_EBA to Anatolia_BA which might be a likelier source and decreases the distance:

[1] "distance%=1.3491"

Spanish_Extremadura

Iberia_BA,37
England_Roman,36.2
Anatolia_BA,15.6
Mozabite,11.2

And an alternative to British-Irish stuff that's really closely related to them nonetheless:


[1] "distance%=1.3835"

Spanish_Extremadura

Beaker_Central_Europe,38.4
Iberia_BA,37.4
Anatolia_BA,12.8
Mozabite,11.4

[1] "distance%=1.5069"

Spanish_Extremadura

Iberia_BA,39.4
Beaker_Central_Europe,36.4
Anatolia_ChL,12.2
Mozabite,12

If you add some Levant_BA as proxy for Phoenician influences or something along those lines:

[1] "distance%=1.2355"

Spanish_Extremadura

Iberia_BA,38.2
England_Roman,36.8
Mozabite,9.6
Anatolia_BA,9.2
Levant_BA,6.2

The Mozabite and Anatolia predictably drop and the distance decreases with no overfitting. If you add Mycenaean instead of Anatolia_BA, basically sibling populations:

[1] "distance%=1.3407"

Spanish_Extremadura

England_Roman,37.8
Iberia_BA,36.8
Levant_BA,9
Mozabite,9
Mycenaean,7.4

Of course all these are very simplistic abstractions that give you the very general feel of what might have happened, especially with no sampling over time.

 

[ROS]

ROS, to read experts... it's good but if you can't come here with proofs you are surely a victim of the hocus-pocus made in humanistic sciences. The Celtiberians being similar geneticaly to Iberians is another gratuite assumption not backed by any proof yet.

ok, you are going to make me understand the Iberian world, first question, the Catalans who do not have, apparently, North African descent, are like pre-Roman Iberian or Celtic people?


The excess of R1b (apparently steppe) that exists in Catalonia (I refer to Catalonia as I could refer to Asturias, Galicia, Cantabria, Euskadi that developed the reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula) that represents the genetic orgen of what we currently call Spain were Celtas or were Iberians, we must bear in mind that the reconquest had its importance, but clear light years of what happened in England with a sutitucion of the population of 90%, a population that in some areas outnumber the Basques in R1b, R1b that allow the expression, has not found the father in the steppe.


But good @Plomo, explain us to the "humanists" that excess R1b in the area. theoretically not IE, the explanation for the Basques does not help me, 90% R1b steppe, and according to Basque experts have 0% steppe (I have seen a very convincing video related to atapuerca), this together that the father has not been found in the This step completely destroys the relationship between the western R1b and the steppe.


But good @Plomo clarify all this. especially where was the father R1b western with the steppe?

 

[Angela]

The point is that something much more "southeastern" is required, and may not have arrived only with the Moorish invasion.

 

[Cato]

Steppe admixture/R1b in Catalonia could be due by:

1) "Reflux" Beakers from Central Europe Late CA
2) Polada/Rhone culture influx ("las asas de apéndice de botón") in the MBA
3) Urnenfelders of the RSFO group, LBA

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[Angela]

Steppe admixture/R1b in Catalonia could be due by:

1) "Reflux" Beakers from Central Europe Late CA
2) Polada/Rhone culture influx ("las asas de apéndice de botón") in the MBA
3) Urnenfelders of the RSFO group, LBA

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There's no "reflux" Beakers. We now know that the Iberian Beakers did not migrate to Central Europe. The Central European Beakers are a mix of steppe people and MN/LN people in the area.

Urnfield may have brought some U-152. I doubt they brought all that DF27. It's quite amazing, btw, that so much of this yDna could be present, but so little actual steppe ancestry.

 

[ROS]

[QUOTE = Cat.; 535384]Steppe admixture/R1b in Catalonia could be due by:

1) "Reflux" Beakers from Central Europe Late CA
2) Polada/Rhone culture influx ("las asas de apéndice de botón") in the MBA
3) Urnenfelders of the RSFO group, LBA

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It seems to me that Western R1b and steppe are not very related.


Indo-European and steppe are partially related.


They are comments from an amateur, self-taught and not university in this matter.

 

[Cato]

There's no "reflux" Beakers. We now know that the Iberian Beakers did not migrate to Central Europe. The Central European Beakers are a mix of steppe people and MN/LN people in the area.

Urnfield may have brought some U-152. I doubt they brought all that DF27. It's quite amazing, btw, that so much of this yDna could be present, but so little actual steppe ancestry.

Well, i dont know...i'm still waiting for more samples from Portugal (Zambujal culture and company) where it seems to have originated

I agree about the U152 and the Urnfield but it could also be of Middle Bronze Age origin , the people who brought the pottery with "apéndice de botón" came from Southern France (U152 rich area)

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[Cato]

It seems to me that Western R1b and steppe are not very related.

In origin maybe not but after 2500 BC yes, Bell Beakers were uniformely R1b and steppe admixed

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[Angela]

Agree with you. Caesar, it seems, inflated a bit the number of "his" vanquished people; and Sardinia, a stone surrounded by sea, has never been the land for huge demographic colonization, as its today population seem still showing; so, crossings, mixing, but not at a high scale.
Celts in Eastern Andalusia? I dont think so. THis region had surely a denser pop than a lot of other regions of Spain, with long tradition of evolved cultures, among them CHA and BA El Argar I suppose come from East Mediterranea and not Steppes via North.
apart and answering other posts:
Mozarab is a linguistic term (not the best it's true) and was a latin dialect of central and southern Iberia under Muslims controle; it had some intermediary Ibero-latin traits but for I know had not the peculiarities shared by Galician and Portuguese; it conserved the initial F- as other Iberian dialects at the exception of Castillan (H-) but it is not a typical trait - I can go deeper in details if someone wants but it is not the very thread and others can surely do the same as me. Today Andaluse seems a Castillan dialect spoken by different people, with very different phonetic habits -
For Urnfields, I don't know for Spain but in other parts of Western Europe it has implied pops moves and increase in demic densities, with some anthropologic traces from Northern-Central Europe in France Rhône region by example. Only Celts, not sure, I don't know. We can suppose they were Celtic speaking in Iberia, at least the elites, spite we can also suppose other Celts were arrived in Northern Spain already before them. Maybe a wave of archaic Celtic speakers, like in Ireland? Unsteady ground without proof.
According to some scholars, Iberic language would have had some Basque- or Aquitan-like loanwords as well as some Celtic loanwords.For me it could have been absent at first in Andalusia/Murcia... ATW a not negligeable number of words seem of a common origin in Basque and Iberic and general phonetical tendancies link both, with a slight opposition to Aquitanian; I wonder if the Iberic basis would not have been a far cousin of Aquitano-Basque or "Gasco-Aquitanian", with modern Basque being a Gasco-Aquitanian imported more recently into South the Pyrenees, and submitted there to common phonetic habits proper to some ancient Iberia folks and a bit different from the North Pyrenees habits?
I would be glad to can date the first apparition of the lineages of DF27 in Iberia; when and where?

I agree with all of that, which leaves me with nothing to say.