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Thread: Impact of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age on Iberia

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    But is that known?
    The remains were taken to the University of Granada and they never saw the haplogrupos published, and already several years ago.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't mean to be rude, but it's irrelevant. The only relevant question is whether there were folk migrations to Sardinia in later periods which might have changed the overall genomics. The answer is that there were no such recorded movements.

    I also don't know where you get the idea that Sardinia, coast or plateau, was such a paradise for agriculturalists. It's not the Po Valley. Sardinians were extremely poor shepherds for most of their history.
    Of course there were folk migrations after the Cardial settlers, recorded by archaeology, and they have changed in part the genomics of the people there, except Ogliastra..20-25 % of R1b and 10% circa of steppe admixture in most of the island is a good evidence of that. i've read also of an extra CHG component in Sardinians compared to EEF

    i've never wrote that it's like the Po Valley, i've just said that it's less rocky than Corsica. And i repeat, Campidano in particular is a huge and fertile plain exploited by the Punics and the Romans..plus the mining resources

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campidano

    End of the OT

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    The choices for study are expanding not contracting. There so much to question as the pictures of what's happened keep being flashed in our eyes. I wanted to locate a number of issues. The first was the number of grave sites:

    Production. The lack of published, functionally oriented excavations means less is known about the organization of productive activities for the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age than for the Agaric, but the available evidence suggests that subsistence patterns were broadly similar. The same range of domesticates were husbanded, the pattern being one of mixed farming with intensifications, such as the use of the plow and other exploitations of animals for their secondary products. In terms of artifact technology, what mainly distinguishes the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age from the Argaric is the absence of some of the more distinctive Argaric productions, such as ceramic chalices and bronze swords and halberds. In the Agaric, these are only found in burials, and burials are scarce in the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age areas.

    The expansion of the process of Agriculture and it's significance and role in change.

    The phenomenon of Neolithisation refers to the transition of prehistoric populations from a hunter-gatherer to an agro-pastoralist lifestyle. Traditionally, the spread of an agro-pastoralist economy into Europe has been framed within a dichotomy based either on an acculturation phenomenon or on a demic diffusion.

    However, the nature and speed of this transition is a matter of continuing scientific debate in archaeology, anthropology, and human,population genetics. In the present study, we have analyzed the mitochondrial DNA diversity in hunter-gatherers and first
    farmers from Northern Spain, in relation to the debate surrounding the phenomenon of Neolithisation in Europe.

    The fact that growing food was becoming an alternative to hunting and gathering. The fact that specificites of grains and cereals changed how food was processed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I can't compare actual Catalans with Celts (which ones? Irish? Allobroges?) or Iberians, as they incinerated their death, so no ancient DNA, and that got from exposed skulls in Ullastrell which ressembles actual Catalan DNA is not to take into account as they could be war prisioners from away or local people that suffered death penalty. Moreover actual Catalans have Roman, Arab and French DNA.



    For R1b and steppe I don't understand well what do you ask, but I don't have reliable proofs about being steppe. Speaking about proofs it seems I will not have the proofs for Celtic spoken in NE Spain.
    Wow the reconstruction in this video is fascinating. That was very interesting, I was curious to know how Iberian settlements looked like. Thanks.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by FIREYWOTAN View Post
    The choices for study are expanding not contracting. There so much to question as the pictures of what's happened keep being flashed in our eyes. I wanted to locate a number of issues. The first was the number of grave sites:

    Production. The lack of published, functionally oriented excavations means less is known about the organization of productive activities for the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age than for the Agaric, but the available evidence suggests that subsistence patterns were broadly similar. The same range of domesticates were husbanded, the pattern being one of mixed farming with intensifications, such as the use of the plow and other exploitations of animals for their secondary products. In terms of artifact technology, what mainly distinguishes the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age from the Argaric is the absence of some of the more distinctive Argaric productions, such as ceramic chalices and bronze swords and halberds. In the Agaric, these are only found in burials, and burials are scarce in the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age areas.

    The expansion of the process of Agriculture and it's significance and role in change.

    The phenomenon of Neolithisation refers to the transition of prehistoric populations from a hunter-gatherer to an agro-pastoralist lifestyle. Traditionally, the spread of an agro-pastoralist economy into Europe has been framed within a dichotomy based either on an acculturation phenomenon or on a demic diffusion.

    However, the nature and speed of this transition is a matter of continuing scientific debate in archaeology, anthropology, and human,population genetics. In the present study, we have analyzed the mitochondrial DNA diversity in hunter-gatherers and first
    farmers from Northern Spain, in relation to the debate surrounding the phenomenon of Neolithisation in Europe.

    The fact that growing food was becoming an alternative to hunting and gathering. The fact that specificites of grains and cereals changed how food was processed.
    There is no longer any debate. Farming was brought to Europe by people who almost replaced southern, western, and Central hunter-gatherers in Europe. After thousands of years, MN farming groups were still only 20% WHG.

    I would urge you to read the papers I have listed in the thread for newbies.


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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Based on the bronze age samples it seems that Basques remained relatively as an Unmixed Bronze age Iberian population. Other Iberians received Roman, Phoenician, Berber populations who left both cultural and genetic impact on modern Spanish and Portuguese.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^

    Los vascos tenían una relación con los romanos, etc. No se entiende y sería increíble un aislamiento total como el que se intenta vender, lo que sucede es que no se puede comparar la maravillosa y fértil tierra de cultivo del sur de Iberia y otras áreas con las tierras vascas, menos interés tal vez por parte de los romanos y otros pueblos, pero de aislamiento nada en absoluto.

    The current territory occupied by the Basque Autonomous Community was dominated by Rome. There was romanization. Neither the nationalists have been able to hide the Roman archaeological remains: villae, causeways, necropolis ... even the fossilized foundation of a large wooden bridge over the Bidasoa. By the way, at first, the current lands of Euskadi belonged also to other peoples, gradually displaced by the Basques: the Autrigones, Caristios, Vardulos ... The primitive Vasconia has to look more towards the current Navarre and the Pyrenees, with its capital in Pompaelum-Iruña (Pamplona), completely romanized after the conquest. Even sepulchral sepulchral remains of Basques in Britain have been found in the Hadrian's Wall as troops of the Roman legions: Alae Equitum Civium Vasconum Romanorum.

    The historians who remember this fact emphasize that it was an old custom for the natives to take charge of the defense and this, naturally, injured their interests and provoked discontent and protests. So we find a crucial fact for the understanding of the relations of the Romans with the Basques until the fifth century AD. To such an extent they were not a danger, to such extent they enjoyed the confidence of the Roman administration, to such an extent they did not need neither vigilance nor control, that the Romans themselves had entrusted them with the defense of the territory. Seen in this light, the theory of the "Basque problem" during the Roman period or Roman domination, totally and radically changes perspective and becomes what it surely was: a people, like so many others in the interior of the Empire, dominated and controlled, but free and autonomous enough to maintain its language, its own defense and its ways of life. The situation would change radically a hundred years later when the Visigoths began a series of harassments against the Basques both because they were still subjects of the Romans and because the Basques of the mountains had become, now, a town that plundered, of necessity, the low areas of their neighbors. "
    Last edited by Carlos; 19-03-18 at 13:33.

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    The current Navarra was not a marginal zone, much less: the Ebro valley communicated with the Levantine Hispania, and the Mediterranean. And it was a mandatory crossing point in the strategic Gaia-Hispania communication route through Roncesvalles. About the fact that the Romans were fundamentally Mediterranean, I disagree. If in the Atlantic they found something that interested them, they went there too. The fact that they erected a lighthouse in the middle of the Galician coast, such as the Tower of Hercules, shows the extent to which communications and Atlantic trade lines were important for Rome.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I think the difference might be that the large number of Roman veterans colonies were in the south. Administrators, trade links, all those things don't have a tremendous impact genetically, imo, but actual colonies of men, women, and children are a different story.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It just never stops. You want to know why you can model some Spanish groups like Estremadura with about 20% "extra" Caucasus?

    Of course, it's the Jews again!

    Did some conversos probably go underground and hide again? Moriscos too? Yes, I think so, given the example of the Belmonte Jews.

    However, for them to be responsible for this large percentage of "extra" Caucasus, they'd have to be a huge percentage of the ancestors of the people in these regions. Also, if that's the case, where is the "extra" "South-west Asian type ancestry?

    For crying out loud, some people in the pop gen community have Jews on the brain.

    Then the other side is heard from, spurred perhaps by our old Spanish friends from stormfront: just add tons more Yamnaya (after the Bronze Age). Who says there was tons more arrival of Yamnaya like people after the Bronze Age? The Romans? How much Yamnaya did they have, given the Roman soldiers could just as easily have come from the "Etruscan" areas or the south as from the Po Valley and the Alps? Because "Celtic" arrived later? I'm unconvinced that this wasn't just a language change over a lot of Europe. The Visigoths? How many were there? It's not like the Langobard migrations. Plus, what y dna lineages did these later Yamnaya heavy groups carry? Spain may have a lot of R1b, but most of it is DF-27. How much I1 for the Visigoths, L21, U-152?

    Do I know what this signal is all about? No, I don't. I'm content to wait for more evidence.

    I'm smarter than to say such silly things, however.

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    @Angela Do you think that the Etruscans had less Yamnaya admixture than the Latins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    @Angela Do you think that the Etruscans had less Yamnaya admixture than the Latins?
    The short answer is that I don't know. I made the reference above and put Etruscans in quotes to reference those who are convinced that there was a massive folk migration from Anatolia to Toscana specifically in the first millennium B.C., who are precisely the kind of people who would be trying to posit extra Yamnaya so as to get rid of a similar migration at some point into Iberia.

    The enigma of the Etruscans is only going to be solved by ancient dna, but we'll still have to keep in mind that the results we get will be those of the "elites" and so not necessarily relevant as to the mass of the common people. Those elites, whether or not they have "additional" Near Eastern type alleles, will also probably have Villanovan type ancestry impacted by migrations from over the Alps, whether or not it changed their language.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    La Bastida Argarica city 2000 years before Ullastret.


    The Almoloya first European Parliament Argarica city very close to the Cigarralejo Ibero site, age difference 2000 years.


    I believe that the argaric culture deserves a greater scientific attention and for the fans to these matters we are expectant of an explanation to which in his day it was announced in the press.
    Last edited by ROS; 19-03-18 at 21:08.

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    That's amazing, it was built in 1900 bc or so, is Le Bastida the only El Argaric urban site though?

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    Of this impressive city only 10% has been unearthed, it seems that there is a lack of funds, which can be expected from the rest, there are deposits that are not investigated, therefore you can not know the cities that exist, there is no systematic investigation of this Argaric culture, possibly due to lack of economic means, or lack of interest to provide economic means.


    Olade should have included this culture in his research, well maybe I'm committing a foolishness when advising a scientific eminence a simple amateur like me.


    I apologize if I'm wrong.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post


    La Bastida Argarica city 2000 years before Ullastret.


    The Almoloya first European Parliament Argarica city very close to the Cirgarralejo Ibero site, age difference 2000 years.


    I believe that the argaric culture deserves a greater scientific attention and for the fans to these matters we are expectant of an explanation to which in his day it was announced in the press.
    Great video, Ros.

    I want to know about these people too.

    This city clearly looks "eastern" to me, not something we see in the more northern and internal areas of Iberia at this time, and as we've discussed before, there are other cultural elements that could be tied to the east. Whether this is because of trade, or there is a movement of people as well is something that should be investigated.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argaric_culture

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    I don't understand this Wikipedia article, how could there have been influences from Mycenaean Greece if La Bastida de Totana was settled around 2200 bc and it reached its maximum extension in 1800 bc, while the Mycenaean civilization begins around 1500 bc and only starts having influence overseas after its takeover of Minoan Crete in 1450 bc? Note that according to the Spanish Wikipedia article about La Bastida the city was abandoned since 1550 bc.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1rbara_Rey

    Bárbara Rey a specimen of Totana (Murcia), which can bring us closer to what those ancient inhabitants of La Bastida were like. They could be quiet people without much nerve and hoarse voices at least maybe in the females and sticking to the specimen that we have taken as an example.

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    @Carlos what part of "Gran" you are?
    Last edited by ROS; 20-03-18 at 03:15.

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    @Carlos, with the previous video that you are telling me that the Argaricos were like Barabara Rey or the Argaricos were like your profile of Hunter Gatherer.


    I hope that the following comment does not lower the HG component in the calculators.


    After the jokes (ha, ha, hee, hee, ho, jo), I thought that this was a serious forum, this Carlos is unpresentable, I hope someone will call attention to ridicule a Spanish citizen.


    Let's see @Carloh (yes Carloh in Murciano) if you have any problem with the Argaric culture say it clearly, do not come ridiculing people who have their rights to a public image, I find it painful.
    Last edited by ROS; 20-03-18 at 03:17.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^ ROS

    I do not know if you're dumb or you're just pretending.

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    Silly, I think not, he wins the chess championships of my town, he misses this show of arrogance, and pretending that. explain it to me.


    But I thank you because you have changed the profile to explain Barbara Rey.

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    Well, let's suppose I'm stupid, I explained what I have to know.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    ^^ ROS

    I do not know if you're dumb or you're just pretending.
    Carlos you carry the flag of Spain on your profile and that gives me some security, I do not want to tell you that I do not understand you.

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    [QUOTE = ROS; 535827] Carlos llevas la bandera de España en tu perfil y eso me da algo de seguridad, no quiero decirte que no te entiendo. [/ QUOTE]

    I have always admired Barbara Rey, not very well for her voice, but she is a good artist and very versatile, I remember her singing: Men for me are like cardboard puppets, and I am only happy playing with her weak heart.

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