The argaric culture had its origin in Ireland (as the archeologists of the bastide commented) or in the eastern Mediterranean? In this, the archaeologists published in the press that Argaric genetics contained the current genetic parameters of the Iberians, were Western R1b in 2500 before Christ or not ?, have not had more news of these genetic investigations, why?
Impact of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age on Iberia
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I agree with all of that, which leaves me with nothing to say.
But the western R1b is steppe or aquitano-ibero-euskaldun?
Or a mixture between both that resulted in lengas IE and not IE?
They are amateur doubts.
Well correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the pottery of the El Argar culture beaker like? What's that got to do with the Eastern Mediterranean exactly? And where is the proof of Eastern Mediterranean presence anywhere in the Western Mediterranean in 2000 bc? They built urban sites like la Bastida de Totana but they didn't leave a single fragment of pottery or Aegean like object in Murcia? This whole theory theory seems completely unreasonable to me and based on a few very loose similarities like the tholos (that by the way existed in Neolithic France in a primitive form since the fifth millenium bc as testified by the cairn of Barnenez )or the cist burials, that's it. To me it's obvious that they were just Iberians.
It is not that where I live is surrounded by archaeological sites of the Argaric culture, but that spectacular news is launched through the press, namely:
- The largest city of its time in Europe, the bastide, compared it with Troy.
- According to the genetic analyzes, Argarians had the same genetic parameters of the current Iberians, 2,200 years before Christ.
- The archaeologists who were from a Catalan University, apart from complaining about the lack of funds, commented that the origin of argaric males were in southern Russia, which had reached the Iberian peninsula through Ireland, Galicia and Portugal .
All this that was a deception or is it true?
And because it has not been known more about the issue?
In all this investigation of Olade there is not a single argaric copy.
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At the time (2200 bc) there were some small urban sites in the Aegean like Troy, Poliochni, Keros, Syros, they like La Bastida de Totana in Murcia were all very small compared to modern cities and most of them didn't reach a population of more than 1,000 inhabitants during that period, but they had certain features like urban planning that earn them the title of urban sites. The fact that Murcia is one of the very few places in Europe where urban sites, albeit small, developed in 2000 bc is surely noteworthy. Other than Murcia and the Aegean, there were some small stone villages in Southern France belonging to the Fontbouisse culture which could realistically have had some relationship with the El Argar culture, but the Fontbouisse settlements were all very small and didn't display any urban feature and the fortifications themselves were very rare and small scale, in it's been put forward that Sardinia received some influence from the Fontbouisse culture during this period, which seems plausible to me, at the time Sardinian was home to an uniform culture known as the Monte Claro culture which did have some large scale fortifications and settlements displaying proto urban features, though smaller than those of Murcia from what I gathered. A connection has been put forward between the Monte Claro and El Argar because of their swords looking alike but I don't know if such a thing can be plausible. I don't know of other sites displaying urban features at time in Europe apart from those I've mentioned, but while the settlements of the Aegean went on to become the great Minoan civilization, not only did the El Argar sites stagnate but they were also abandoned and people went back to living in sparse unprotected villages in the area from what I understand. Another difference would be that the El Argar towns were all fortified citadels whereas the Cycladic towns were mostly unprotected and somewhat bigger on average. So no La Bastida de Totana wasn't the largest I think there were bigger sites in what is now Greece but I think it can be classified as a city though I'm not an expert on the El Argar culture.
Angela
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berun
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I can't compare actual Catalans with Celts (which ones? Irish? Allobroges?) or Iberians, as they incinerated their death, so no ancient DNA, and that got from exposed skulls in Ullastrell which ressembles actual Catalan DNA is not to take into account as they could be war prisioners from away or local people that suffered death penalty. Moreover actual Catalans have Roman, Arab and French DNA.
For R1b and steppe I don't understand well what do you ask, but I don't have reliable proofs about being steppe. Speaking about proofs it seems I will not have the proofs for Celtic spoken in NE Spain.
But is that known?
Of course there were folk migrations after the Cardial settlers, recorded by archaeology, and they have changed in part the genomics of the people there, except Ogliastra..20-25 % of R1b and 10% circa of steppe admixture in most of the island is a good evidence of that. i've read also of an extra CHG component in Sardinians compared to EEF
i've never wrote that it's like the Po Valley, i've just said that it's less rocky than Corsica. And i repeat, Campidano in particular is a huge and fertile plain exploited by the Punics and the Romans..plus the mining resources
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campidano
End of the OT
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FIREYWOTAN
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The choices for study are expanding not contracting. There so much to question as the pictures of what's happened keep being flashed in our eyes. I wanted to locate a number of issues. The first was the number of grave sites:
[FONT=Open Sans, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif]Production. The lack of published, functionally oriented excavations means less is known about the organization of productive activities for the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age than for the Agaric, but the available evidence suggests that subsistence patterns were broadly similar. The same range of domesticates were husbanded, the pattern being one of mixed farming with intensifications, such as the use of the plow and other exploitations of animals for their secondary products. In terms of artifact technology, what mainly distinguishes the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age from the Argaric is the absence of some of the more distinctive Argaric productions, such as ceramic chalices and bronze swords and halberds. In the Agaric, these are only found in burials, and burials are scarce in the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age areas.
[/FONT]
The expansion of the process of Agriculture and it's significance and role in change.
The phenomenon of Neolithisation refers to the transition of prehistoric populations from a hunter-gatherer to an agro-pastoralist lifestyle. Traditionally, the spread of an agro-pastoralist economy into Europe has been framed within a dichotomy based either on an acculturation phenomenon or on a demic diffusion.
However, the nature and speed of this transition is a matter of continuing scientific debate in archaeology, anthropology, and human,population genetics. In the present study, we have analyzed the mitochondrial DNA diversity in hunter-gatherers and first
farmers from Northern Spain, in relation to the debate surrounding the phenomenon of Neolithisation in Europe.
The fact that growing food was becoming an alternative to hunting and gathering. The fact that specificites of grains and cereals changed how food was processed.
[FONT=Open Sans, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif]Production. The lack of published, functionally oriented excavations means less is known about the organization of productive activities for the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age than for the Agaric, but the available evidence suggests that subsistence patterns were broadly similar. The same range of domesticates were husbanded, the pattern being one of mixed farming with intensifications, such as the use of the plow and other exploitations of animals for their secondary products. In terms of artifact technology, what mainly distinguishes the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age from the Argaric is the absence of some of the more distinctive Argaric productions, such as ceramic chalices and bronze swords and halberds. In the Agaric, these are only found in burials, and burials are scarce in the Bronce Valenciano and Mancha Bronze Age areas.
[/FONT]
The expansion of the process of Agriculture and it's significance and role in change.
The phenomenon of Neolithisation refers to the transition of prehistoric populations from a hunter-gatherer to an agro-pastoralist lifestyle. Traditionally, the spread of an agro-pastoralist economy into Europe has been framed within a dichotomy based either on an acculturation phenomenon or on a demic diffusion.
However, the nature and speed of this transition is a matter of continuing scientific debate in archaeology, anthropology, and human,population genetics. In the present study, we have analyzed the mitochondrial DNA diversity in hunter-gatherers and first
farmers from Northern Spain, in relation to the debate surrounding the phenomenon of Neolithisation in Europe.
The fact that growing food was becoming an alternative to hunting and gathering. The fact that specificites of grains and cereals changed how food was processed.
Ygorcs
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Wow the reconstruction in this video is fascinating. That was very interesting, I was curious to know how Iberian settlements looked like. Thanks.
Angela
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There is no longer any debate. Farming was brought to Europe by people who almost replaced southern, western, and Central hunter-gatherers in Europe. After thousands of years, MN farming groups were still only 20% WHG.
I would urge you to read the papers I have listed in the thread for newbies.
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Based on the bronze age samples it seems that Basques remained relatively as an Unmixed Bronze age Iberian population. Other Iberians received Roman, Phoenician, Berber populations who left both cultural and genetic impact on modern Spanish and Portuguese.
Carlos
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^^
Los vascos tenían una relación con los romanos, etc. No se entiende y sería increíble un aislamiento total como el que se intenta vender, lo que sucede es que no se puede comparar la maravillosa y fértil tierra de cultivo del sur de Iberia y otras áreas con las tierras vascas, menos interés tal vez por parte de los romanos y otros pueblos, pero de aislamiento nada en absoluto.
The current territory occupied by the Basque Autonomous Community was dominated by Rome. There was romanization. Neither the nationalists have been able to hide the Roman archaeological remains: villae, causeways, necropolis ... even the fossilized foundation of a large wooden bridge over the Bidasoa. By the way, at first, the current lands of Euskadi belonged also to other peoples, gradually displaced by the Basques: the Autrigones, Caristios, Vardulos ... The primitive Vasconia has to look more towards the current Navarre and the Pyrenees, with its capital in Pompaelum-Iruña (Pamplona), completely romanized after the conquest. Even sepulchral sepulchral remains of Basques in Britain have been found in the Hadrian's Wall as troops of the Roman legions: Alae Equitum Civium Vasconum Romanorum.
The historians who remember this fact emphasize that it was an old custom for the natives to take charge of the defense and this, naturally, injured their interests and provoked discontent and protests. So we find a crucial fact for the understanding of the relations of the Romans with the Basques until the fifth century AD. To such an extent they were not a danger, to such extent they enjoyed the confidence of the Roman administration, to such an extent they did not need neither vigilance nor control, that the Romans themselves had entrusted them with the defense of the territory. Seen in this light, the theory of the "Basque problem" during the Roman period or Roman domination, totally and radically changes perspective and becomes what it surely was: a people, like so many others in the interior of the Empire, dominated and controlled, but free and autonomous enough to maintain its language, its own defense and its ways of life. The situation would change radically a hundred years later when the Visigoths began a series of harassments against the Basques both because they were still subjects of the Romans and because the Basques of the mountains had become, now, a town that plundered, of necessity, the low areas of their neighbors. "
Los vascos tenían una relación con los romanos, etc. No se entiende y sería increíble un aislamiento total como el que se intenta vender, lo que sucede es que no se puede comparar la maravillosa y fértil tierra de cultivo del sur de Iberia y otras áreas con las tierras vascas, menos interés tal vez por parte de los romanos y otros pueblos, pero de aislamiento nada en absoluto.
The current territory occupied by the Basque Autonomous Community was dominated by Rome. There was romanization. Neither the nationalists have been able to hide the Roman archaeological remains: villae, causeways, necropolis ... even the fossilized foundation of a large wooden bridge over the Bidasoa. By the way, at first, the current lands of Euskadi belonged also to other peoples, gradually displaced by the Basques: the Autrigones, Caristios, Vardulos ... The primitive Vasconia has to look more towards the current Navarre and the Pyrenees, with its capital in Pompaelum-Iruña (Pamplona), completely romanized after the conquest. Even sepulchral sepulchral remains of Basques in Britain have been found in the Hadrian's Wall as troops of the Roman legions: Alae Equitum Civium Vasconum Romanorum.
The historians who remember this fact emphasize that it was an old custom for the natives to take charge of the defense and this, naturally, injured their interests and provoked discontent and protests. So we find a crucial fact for the understanding of the relations of the Romans with the Basques until the fifth century AD. To such an extent they were not a danger, to such extent they enjoyed the confidence of the Roman administration, to such an extent they did not need neither vigilance nor control, that the Romans themselves had entrusted them with the defense of the territory. Seen in this light, the theory of the "Basque problem" during the Roman period or Roman domination, totally and radically changes perspective and becomes what it surely was: a people, like so many others in the interior of the Empire, dominated and controlled, but free and autonomous enough to maintain its language, its own defense and its ways of life. The situation would change radically a hundred years later when the Visigoths began a series of harassments against the Basques both because they were still subjects of the Romans and because the Basques of the mountains had become, now, a town that plundered, of necessity, the low areas of their neighbors. "
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Carlos
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The current Navarra was not a marginal zone, much less: the Ebro valley communicated with the Levantine Hispania, and the Mediterranean. And it was a mandatory crossing point in the strategic Gaia-Hispania communication route through Roncesvalles. About the fact that the Romans were fundamentally Mediterranean, I disagree. If in the Atlantic they found something that interested them, they went there too. The fact that they erected a lighthouse in the middle of the Galician coast, such as the Tower of Hercules, shows the extent to which communications and Atlantic trade lines were important for Rome.
Angela
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I think the difference might be that the large number of Roman veterans colonies were in the south. Administrators, trade links, all those things don't have a tremendous impact genetically, imo, but actual colonies of men, women, and children are a different story.
Angela
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It just never stops. You want to know why you can model some Spanish groups like Estremadura with about 20% "extra" Caucasus?
Of course, it's the Jews again!:useless:
Did some conversos probably go underground and hide again? Moriscos too? Yes, I think so, given the example of the Belmonte Jews.
However, for them to be responsible for this large percentage of "extra" Caucasus, they'd have to be a huge percentage of the ancestors of the people in these regions. Also, if that's the case, where is the "extra" "South-west Asian type ancestry?
For crying out loud, some people in the pop gen community have Jews on the brain.
Then the other side is heard from, spurred perhaps by our old Spanish friends from stormfront: just add tons more Yamnaya (after the Bronze Age). Who says there was tons more arrival of Yamnaya like people after the Bronze Age? The Romans? How much Yamnaya did they have, given the Roman soldiers could just as easily have come from the "Etruscan" areas or the south as from the Po Valley and the Alps? Because "Celtic" arrived later? I'm unconvinced that this wasn't just a language change over a lot of Europe. The Visigoths? How many were there? It's not like the Langobard migrations. Plus, what y dna lineages did these later Yamnaya heavy groups carry? Spain may have a lot of R1b, but most of it is DF-27. How much I1 for the Visigoths, L21, U-152?
Do I know what this signal is all about? No, I don't. I'm content to wait for more evidence.
I'm smarter than to say such silly things, however.
Of course, it's the Jews again!:useless:
Did some conversos probably go underground and hide again? Moriscos too? Yes, I think so, given the example of the Belmonte Jews.
However, for them to be responsible for this large percentage of "extra" Caucasus, they'd have to be a huge percentage of the ancestors of the people in these regions. Also, if that's the case, where is the "extra" "South-west Asian type ancestry?
For crying out loud, some people in the pop gen community have Jews on the brain.
Then the other side is heard from, spurred perhaps by our old Spanish friends from stormfront: just add tons more Yamnaya (after the Bronze Age). Who says there was tons more arrival of Yamnaya like people after the Bronze Age? The Romans? How much Yamnaya did they have, given the Roman soldiers could just as easily have come from the "Etruscan" areas or the south as from the Po Valley and the Alps? Because "Celtic" arrived later? I'm unconvinced that this wasn't just a language change over a lot of Europe. The Visigoths? How many were there? It's not like the Langobard migrations. Plus, what y dna lineages did these later Yamnaya heavy groups carry? Spain may have a lot of R1b, but most of it is DF-27. How much I1 for the Visigoths, L21, U-152?
Do I know what this signal is all about? No, I don't. I'm content to wait for more evidence.
I'm smarter than to say such silly things, however.
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