Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past

I’m 5’10” - from the South of Italy -
@Davef I’m not a Hobbit. I think, ... :)
 
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Ailchu said:
yes. but what if this additional WHG EHG admixture in northern europe might actually give these people an advantage to survive in northern europe. i see italians (me included) with body structures that i only rarely see among germans and vice versa. in the middle east it gets probably even more extreme after looking at people from there. i met german women who had to bend their necks to look down at me and they often also have broader shoulders than me. now this doesn't happen all the time but it happens way more often than it did in switzerland and especially with other italians. call me a nordicist but i think in that regard they or at least some of them really might be superior in some way. and i actually think its somehow sad that this is going to be gone like for example native americans. but its a question of perspective. and thats the thing. i just think that you can't fight racism with science since race categories and the value of differences are often just a question of perspective even in science.
racism will never be gone. even if our populations will be so mixed that there is no difference between them anymore. even then people will have ideals. and the fact that certain genes are superior to others, though often because of perspective, personal preference or also depending on the environment in which they need to survive, will never be gone, its nature, and this might play a huge role in future genetic medicine for example with things like crispr cas. "racism" might shift from a population level to an individual level.

i don't know. i don't think i'm a racist but i'm an opponent of globalization. it's like in physics. everything will go to greatest possible disorder once you let it happen. and imo that's a loss.
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Sorry but this does not make sense Ailchu.

First, because Germans are not the tallest in the world right now, the tallest men are in the Dinaric mountains.

Second, you are talking as if the height difference has always been like this but it hasn't. The Dutch were among the shortest Europeans in the 19th century, but are now first if you discount Dinarics for not being a country.

Third, look the WHG ancestry map: https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/European_hunter-gatherer_admixture.png. Now look at the height map: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/1b/bf/911bbffbe7a960149b1fc5f271785d6b.jpg. Not exactly the same thing.

Also, I agree with Angela: intelligence matters most today.
 
Angela said:
Great insights, as always, from our members. It's extremism, in all its forms, that is the problem.
Not to be pedantic, but "farmers" weren't born farmers. They descend from hunter-gatherers too, hunter-gatherers who happened to "discover" agriculture.
I think this all goes back to the 19th century. Northern Europeans, who industrialized first, looked at themselves and at Southern Europeans, who were on average "darker", and attributed all sorts of, as Jovialis said, "mystical" and "value laden" attributes to it. With the beginnings of genetics, they also believed that these traits were the "original European" traits, which made them the "real" Europeans, and everyone else interlopers.
That's what was so ironic about the discovery that the WHG were darker than the agriculturalists who started entering Europe.
Then the identification turned to the steppe people, only to discover that the EHG, who did seem "lighter", had admixed with Basal Eurasian heavy Caucasus type people, and that most of their early "achievements" were borrowed from surrounding "farmer" type cultures. (Only shows their good sense and adaptability to me, but there you have it.)
It doesn't matter, though. If people want to blind themselves to the facts, they will.
Believe me, I'm sure all this racist nonsense still goes on among the racists in the pop gen community. It's just that given that they know many people have kept screenshots of their statements in the past, and are reading their material now, they have to communicate "honestly", if you can call it that, on the dark web.
This is why I think that the racial superiority movement is much bigger in Europe than people realize. Look at the statements coming out of Eastern Europe with absolutely no adverse consequences. Can you imagine what is said on the dark net or behind closed doors? All they've gotten out of all this genetics research is that the Germans were wrong to target them for annihilation. It's they, the Slavs, who are the real "Untermenschen". If it weren't so pathetic and frightening at the same time it would be funny.
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the days of the industrial revolution and European colonisation are long gone, and yes there are still some remnants of racism
I don't think there are many Europeans who worry about WHG being black or dark skinned, you have to go to the specialised fora to find them
but blaming Europeans for whatever went wrong in history and blaming everyone who opposes open EU borders or criticises multiculturalism to be a racist is not going to help, on the contrary, it will give those few true racists left a second breath
 
Ownstyler said:
Sorry but this does not make sense Ailchu.

First, because Germans are not the tallest in the world right now, the tallest men are in the Dinaric mountains.

Second, you are talking as if the height difference has always been like this but it hasn't. The Dutch were among the shortest Europeans in the 19th century, but are now first if you discount Dinarics for not being a country.

Third, look the WHG ancestry map: https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/European_hunter-gatherer_admixture.png. Now look at the height map: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/1b/bf/911bbffbe7a960149b1fc5f271785d6b.jpg. Not exactly the same thing.

Also, I agree with Angela: intelligence matters most today.
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The English, as another example, managed to create an empire that covered a good part of the globe without being particularly tall.

I can't think of much that is sillier, particularly in this day and age, than basing some sort of superiority on height.
 
Angela said:
The English, as another example, managed to create an empire that covered a good part of the globe without being particularly tall.
I can't think of much that is sillier, particularly in this day and age, than basing some sort of superiority on height.
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released 1977

:rolleyes:

today it's cool to be a gangsta, but such lyrics would be seen as offensive by 'correct' people

"Short People" is a song by Randy Newman from his 1977 album, Little Criminals. The verses and chorus are lyrically constructed as a prejudiced attack on short people. In contrast, the bridge states that "short people are just the same as you and I." Newman interprets the song to be about "prejudice" as was widely thought, but added that it was "about a lunatic." As with many of his songs such as "Rednecks", Newman wrote the song from the point of view of a biased narrator. Like Dire Straits' 1985 hit single, "Money for Nothing", which used the same lyrical technique, the song was misunderstood by many listeners who wrongly assumed that it reflected Newman's personal viewpoint.

these 'correct' peole already showed up in 1978

In 1978, state of Maryland delegate Isaiah Dixon attempted to introduce legislation making it illegal to play "Short People" on the radio. He was advised by Assistant Attorney General Francis B. Burch that such a law would be a violation of the First Amendment.[6]

Newman would later grow to dislike the song and its success, eventually calling it a "bad break", a "novelty record like The Chipmunks", and said it caused him to receive several threats regarding its misinterpreted message.[2] He said, "I had no idea that there was any sensitivity, I mean, that anyone could believe that anyone was as crazy as that character. To have that kind of animus against short people, and then to sing it and put it all in song and have a philosophy on it."[3] However, it ended up being included on almost every one of his greatest hits albums.[4][not in citation given]

It's only grown worse since 1978. The 'correct' people came to own the media and politics.
 
Ownstyler said:
Sorry but this does not make sense Ailchu.

First, because Germans are not the tallest in the world right now, the tallest men are in the Dinaric mountains.

Second, you are talking as if the height difference has always been like this but it hasn't. The Dutch were among the shortest Europeans in the 19th century, but are now first if you discount Dinarics for not being a country.

Third, look the WHG ancestry map: https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/European_hunter-gatherer_admixture.png. Now look at the height map: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/1b/bf/911bbffbe7a960149b1fc5f271785d6b.jpg. Not exactly the same thing.

Also, I agree with Angela: intelligence matters most today.
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Intelligence matters more than height, but even without being all that bright you can still thrive and be very successful (she did say other talents are important). If you have people skills, you can succeed in psychology, business and marketing, if you have culinary skills, you can work at a great restaurant, mechanical skills can get you a six figure plumbing job, and I'm just scratching the surface. There are lots of successful people who aren't all that spectacular in terms of intelligence out there.

No need to be a genius to run a great business

edit: ok well the items I mentioned with regards to people, mechanical skills etc are forms of intelligence and even work ethic is a form of (emotional) intelligence so yes intelligence matters most if we include these other things under the intelligence blanket. No need to be tall to have these traits.
 
The reality is that this nostalgia for days of racial "purity" isn't based on the science as we now know it.

All of the ancient dna which Reich, among others, has helped to uncover and explain should make it clear that human history is composed of periods of genetic stasis punctuated by periods of extensive admixture.

The Magdalenians are gone, the WHG are gone, the EHG are gone, the Indo-Europeans, the first farmers are basically gone.

To bemoan their passing is an exercise in futility.
 
Wait, there are still a lot of Sardinians who are fully European farmer, right?
But yes the northern groups (Steppe and WHG) mentioned in your post are gone in pure form. Still wonder if there are any Estonians who have very little farmer (well less than the European average of 50-60 percent i wager) out there.

I think tomenable posted an Estonian who scored 50 percent baltic in Eurogenes, you still with us "tom"?

Note: Im not agenda driven so if there aren't any I won't pout
 
I'd say that the Sardinians from the Gennenartu are a remnant of the MN farmers, i.e. maybe Chalcolithic farmer like, like Otzi, in that they have a bigger slice of "actual" WHG than the Anatolia farmers, but yes, very close. So, that survived the longest.

They look completely modern to me even if there is variation...
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How strange for you guys to focus on racism from Northern Europeans when by far the most racist people on anthroforas are Southern Europeans. Mentioning that Italy has an West Asian shift or that Iberia is North African shifted will make most Italian and Iberian members quite angry and they will do everything contradict it. It's almost like they don't want to be associated in any way whatsoever with darker people, don't you think? And don't tell me it's not true. Everyone can see how difficult it is for various south Euro groups to accept (recent)non-European influence among their own ethnicity.
 
Wigster said:
How strange for you guys to focus on racism from Northern Europeans when by far the most racist people on anthroforas are Southern Europeans. Mentioning that Italy has an West Asian shift or that Iberia is North African shifted will make most Italian and Iberian members quite angry and they will do everything contradict it. It's almost like they don't want to be associated in any way whatsoever with darker people, don't you think? And don't tell me it's not true. Everyone can see how difficult it is for various south Euro groups to accept (recent)non-European influence among their own ethnicity.
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You're kidding, right?

Here's a guy who is surprised to find Nordicist Italians on racist anthrofora! :)

Please...

Try meeting with and speaking with people from the real world, not racist losers who agonize over how much of one ancient group or another is in them, no matter their nationality.
 
Wigster said:
How strange for you guys to focus on racism from Northern Europeans when by far the most racist people on anthroforas are Southern Europeans. Mentioning that Italy has an West Asian shift or that Iberia is North African shifted will make most Italian and Iberian members quite angry and they will do everything contradict it. It's almost like they don't want to be associated in any way whatsoever with darker people, don't you think? And don't tell me it's not true. Everyone can see how difficult it is for various south Euro groups to accept (recent)non-European influence among their own ethnicity.
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Do not Generalize !
Who are the Racist members of Eupedia ?
Name Names !
 
No, he won't, and neither will you.

That's enough. We've gone off-topic for too long.

Btw, don't ever think you're smart enough to fool me, because you're not.
 
Angela said:
No, he won't, and neither will you.

That's enough. We've gone off-topic for too long.

Btw, don't ever think you're smart enough to fool me, because you're not.
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I’m not your Enemy.
I didn’t try to fool you.
 
Angela said:
You're kidding, right?

Here's a guy who is surprised to find Nordicist Italians on racist anthrofora! :)

Please...

Try meeting with and speaking with people from the real world, not racist losers who agonize over how much of one ancient group or another is in them, no matter their nationality.
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Then tell me where you'll find actual nordicist Scandinavians/Northern Europeans in real life? I have not heard once a Swede mention that ancient Romans and Greeks were nordic looking. This is something I for the first time saw in Anthroforas.
 
I see it right that each individual tries to know the origin of his people, to know his history, now well, when we empathize with supremacisms, that I am better than the other because of this, and the other, we are already wrong, the simplest thing in the world is to convince your neighborhood, town, region, country, which is better than another, this is nationalism, which if it also has racist components is a bomb, human beings should get away from these bombs, already in Europe we have enough experiences.


Not for being blond with blue eyes is better than anyone, not for being brown with brown eyes is better than anyone, it is simply an adaptation to solar radiation, simply.


The hunter-gatherers suffered an environmental adaptation that gave rise to that very dark complexion, the farmers had white skin possibly because they lived inside houses or not, but they are always adapted to the environment and above all nobody is better than anyone, this is what important, the simplest thing is to believe yourself superior to others, even consider it a basic error.


Europe is a large area that, due to its long history, is mature and European peoples must take advantage of this maturity and experience to achieve and preserve one of the best areas to live on this planet called Earth and never get into exacerbated nationalism and absurd racism among Europeans .

By the way, the women of Cerdanya seem beautiful to me.


They have a special beauty.
 
Wigster said:
Then tell me where you'll find actual nordicist Scandinavians/Northern Europeans in real life? I have not heard once a Swede mention that ancient Romans and Greeks were nordic looking. This is something I for the first time saw in Anthroforas.
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Keep it up with the provocative behavior, and I'll give you another infraction.
 
We are all on this forum for the same reason : we are on a quest - a quest for identity. But during that process of trying to discover who we are, we find it hard to get rid of that cherished image of who/what we'd like to be.

Our forefathers are a part of ourselves, somehow. We feel more comfortable if we can convince ourselves they were "giants", bright, handsome, heroic, you name it... And it is all the easier to bestow on them whatever virtues we fancy since they are no longer here to disprove our "convictions". Isn't it legitimate to dream our dreams? Well, reverence for ancestors is common to a wide range of cultures. Why can't we let people glorify their own forbears if it helps them live ? After all, when we are watching a western movie, we identify more readily with Clint Eastwood or John Wayne than with the baddies facing them. Let every one of us cultivate their own intimate legends. There's no harm in that alone.

The problem with identity is that, too often, it defines itself against others. That's where dreams of grandeur begin to hurt. Historically, the first contact between two cultures is almost always hostile (colonization, exploitation, slavery, genocide). Native Americans won't contradict me on that. Nations, just like individuals, are caught in a sort of Darwinian competition for economic survival, cultural influence, etc. To rank top, you have to nudge your way up. So, when one tries to boost one's self-image, contempt for others is most likely waiting round the bend. That's where brains should take over.

Genetic discoveries can help. But education is the main key. Who was the greatest : Erasmus, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Dante, Montaigne, Sophocles, Tolstoï... ? Which one is the most beautiful : the Parthenon, the Coliseum, the Blue Mosque, the Nevski Prospect? And who will win the next Champions' League final : Man U, la Juve, Real Madrid, or Bayern München ? The respective achievements of each culture can suffice to instil the element of mutual respect that will ensure peaceful coexistence.

Trouble is, with most people in this day and age glued to their TV set watching moronic reality shows, there is room for pessimism.
 
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