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Thread: Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Sorry but this does not make sense Ailchu.

    First, because Germans are not the tallest in the world right now, the tallest men are in the Dinaric mountains.

    Second, you are talking as if the height difference has always been like this but it hasn't. The Dutch were among the shortest Europeans in the 19th century, but are now first if you discount Dinarics for not being a country.

    Third, look the WHG ancestry map: https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con..._admixture.png. Now look at the height map: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/1b...f271785d6b.jpg. Not exactly the same thing.

    Also, I agree with Angela: intelligence matters most today.
    Intelligence matters more than height, but even without being all that bright you can still thrive and be very successful (she did say other talents are important). If you have people skills, you can succeed in psychology, business and marketing, if you have culinary skills, you can work at a great restaurant, mechanical skills can get you a six figure plumbing job, and I'm just scratching the surface. There are lots of successful people who aren't all that spectacular in terms of intelligence out there.

    No need to be a genius to run a great business

    edit: ok well the items I mentioned with regards to people, mechanical skills etc are forms of intelligence and even work ethic is a form of (emotional) intelligence so yes intelligence matters most if we include these other things under the intelligence blanket. No need to be tall to have these traits.
    mmmmmmmmmm doughnuuuuutz

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The reality is that this nostalgia for days of racial "purity" isn't based on the science as we now know it.

    All of the ancient dna which Reich, among others, has helped to uncover and explain should make it clear that human history is composed of periods of genetic stasis punctuated by periods of extensive admixture.

    The Magdalenians are gone, the WHG are gone, the EHG are gone, the Indo-Europeans, the first farmers are basically gone.

    To bemoan their passing is an exercise in futility.


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    Wait, there are still a lot of Sardinians who are fully European farmer, right?
    But yes the northern groups (Steppe and WHG) mentioned in your post are gone in pure form. Still wonder if there are any Estonians who have very little farmer (well less than the European average of 50-60 percent i wager) out there.

    I think tomenable posted an Estonian who scored 50 percent baltic in Eurogenes, you still with us "tom"?

    Note: Im not agenda driven so if there aren't any I won't pout

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    I'd say that the Sardinians from the Gennenartu are a remnant of the MN farmers, i.e. maybe Chalcolithic farmer like, like Otzi, in that they have a bigger slice of "actual" WHG than the Anatolia farmers, but yes, very close. So, that survived the longest.

    They look completely modern to me even if there is variation...







    [IMG][/IMG]

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    How strange for you guys to focus on racism from Northern Europeans when by far the most racist people on anthroforas are Southern Europeans. Mentioning that Italy has an West Asian shift or that Iberia is North African shifted will make most Italian and Iberian members quite angry and they will do everything contradict it. It's almost like they don't want to be associated in any way whatsoever with darker people, don't you think? And don't tell me it's not true. Everyone can see how difficult it is for various south Euro groups to accept (recent)non-European influence among their own ethnicity.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wigster View Post
    How strange for you guys to focus on racism from Northern Europeans when by far the most racist people on anthroforas are Southern Europeans. Mentioning that Italy has an West Asian shift or that Iberia is North African shifted will make most Italian and Iberian members quite angry and they will do everything contradict it. It's almost like they don't want to be associated in any way whatsoever with darker people, don't you think? And don't tell me it's not true. Everyone can see how difficult it is for various south Euro groups to accept (recent)non-European influence among their own ethnicity.
    You're kidding, right?

    Here's a guy who is surprised to find Nordicist Italians on racist anthrofora! :)

    Please...

    Try meeting with and speaking with people from the real world, not racist losers who agonize over how much of one ancient group or another is in them, no matter their nationality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wigster View Post
    How strange for you guys to focus on racism from Northern Europeans when by far the most racist people on anthroforas are Southern Europeans. Mentioning that Italy has an West Asian shift or that Iberia is North African shifted will make most Italian and Iberian members quite angry and they will do everything contradict it. It's almost like they don't want to be associated in any way whatsoever with darker people, don't you think? And don't tell me it's not true. Everyone can see how difficult it is for various south Euro groups to accept (recent)non-European influence among their own ethnicity.
    Do not Generalize !
    Who are the Racist members of Eupedia ?
    Name Names !
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    No, he won't, and neither will you.

    That's enough. We've gone off-topic for too long.

    Btw, don't ever think you're smart enough to fool me, because you're not.

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    Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, he won't, and neither will you.

    That's enough. We've gone off-topic for too long.

    Btw, don't ever think you're smart enough to fool me, because you're not.
    I’m not your Enemy.
    I didn’t try to fool you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're kidding, right?

    Here's a guy who is surprised to find Nordicist Italians on racist anthrofora! :)

    Please...

    Try meeting with and speaking with people from the real world, not racist losers who agonize over how much of one ancient group or another is in them, no matter their nationality.
    Then tell me where you'll find actual nordicist Scandinavians/Northern Europeans in real life? I have not heard once a Swede mention that ancient Romans and Greeks were nordic looking. This is something I for the first time saw in Anthroforas.

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    I see it right that each individual tries to know the origin of his people, to know his history, now well, when we empathize with supremacisms, that I am better than the other because of this, and the other, we are already wrong, the simplest thing in the world is to convince your neighborhood, town, region, country, which is better than another, this is nationalism, which if it also has racist components is a bomb, human beings should get away from these bombs, already in Europe we have enough experiences.


    Not for being blond with blue eyes is better than anyone, not for being brown with brown eyes is better than anyone, it is simply an adaptation to solar radiation, simply.


    The hunter-gatherers suffered an environmental adaptation that gave rise to that very dark complexion, the farmers had white skin possibly because they lived inside houses or not, but they are always adapted to the environment and above all nobody is better than anyone, this is what important, the simplest thing is to believe yourself superior to others, even consider it a basic error.


    Europe is a large area that, due to its long history, is mature and European peoples must take advantage of this maturity and experience to achieve and preserve one of the best areas to live on this planet called Earth and never get into exacerbated nationalism and absurd racism among Europeans .

    By the way, the women of Cerdanya seem beautiful to me.


    They have a special beauty.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wigster View Post
    Then tell me where you'll find actual nordicist Scandinavians/Northern Europeans in real life? I have not heard once a Swede mention that ancient Romans and Greeks were nordic looking. This is something I for the first time saw in Anthroforas.
    Keep it up with the provocative behavior, and I'll give you another infraction.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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    We are all on this forum for the same reason : we are on a quest - a quest for identity. But during that process of trying to discover who we are, we find it hard to get rid of that cherished image of who/what we'd like to be.

    Our forefathers are a part of ourselves, somehow. We feel more comfortable if we can convince ourselves they were "giants", bright, handsome, heroic, you name it... And it is all the easier to bestow on them whatever virtues we fancy since they are no longer here to disprove our "convictions". Isn't it legitimate to dream our dreams? Well, reverence for ancestors is common to a wide range of cultures. Why can't we let people glorify their own forbears if it helps them live ? After all, when we are watching a western movie, we identify more readily with Clint Eastwood or John Wayne than with the baddies facing them. Let every one of us cultivate their own intimate legends. There's no harm in that alone.

    The problem with identity is that, too often, it defines itself against others. That's where dreams of grandeur begin to hurt. Historically, the first contact between two cultures is almost always hostile (colonization, exploitation, slavery, genocide). Native Americans won't contradict me on that. Nations, just like individuals, are caught in a sort of Darwinian competition for economic survival, cultural influence, etc. To rank top, you have to nudge your way up. So, when one tries to boost one's self-image, contempt for others is most likely waiting round the bend. That's where brains should take over.

    Genetic discoveries can help. But education is the main key. Who was the greatest : Erasmus, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Dante, Montaigne, Sophocles, Tolstoï... ? Which one is the most beautiful : the Parthenon, the Coliseum, the Blue Mosque, the Nevski Prospect? And who will win the next Champions' League final : Man U, la Juve, Real Madrid, or Bayern München ? The respective achievements of each culture can suffice to instil the element of mutual respect that will ensure peaceful coexistence.

    Trouble is, with most people in this day and age glued to their TV set watching moronic reality shows, there is room for pessimism.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    We are all on this forum for the same reason
    Sorry, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Sorry, but that couldn't be further from the truth.
    I know... just part of the dialectics !

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    I know... just part of the dialectics !
    I should elaborate. Some people are indeed here for learning more about their identity, or just genetics in general. But t-rolls only seek to cause disruption to satisfy some pathetically sadistic urge. It's probably some way for them to feel empowered, since they're probably cowards, weaklings, and social rejects in their everyday life. This is obvious since they spend prime hours of the weekend, making fake-accounts, just to cause havoc on this forum. They seriously have to be complete losers imo.

    I think its ironic that these racist t-rolls who think they're superior, exhibit social traits that indicate they will most likely not pass on their genetics. Since they have a low-chance of procreating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I should elaborate. Some people are indeed here for learning more about their identity, or just genetics in general. But t-rolls only seek to cause disruption to satisfy some pathetically sadistic urge. It's probably some way for them to feel empowered, since they're probably cowards, weaklings, and social rejects in their everyday life. This is obvious since they spend prime hours of the weekend, making fake-accounts, just to cause havoc on this forum. They seriously have to be complete losers imo.

    Don't worry. I knew exactly what you meant. I naively got caught in a few of their traps these last days. I share your opinion of them - needless to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Don't worry. I knew exactly what you meant. I naively got caught in a few of their traps these last days. I share your opinion of them - needless to say.
    I know :), and to echo what you had said, for the people who are serious about genetics, this is an excerpt from what David Reich said in the interview:

    "But if you actually take any serious look at this data, it just confounds every stereotype. It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history."


    Nevertheless, with that last bit after the part I bolded, when it comes to immigration, I think the constituency within a nation-state have the right to regulate who they let into their country. They also have a right to preserve their culture as they see fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I know :), and to echo what you had said, for the people who are serious about genetics, this is an excerpt from what David Reich said in the interview:
    "But if you actually take any serious look at this data, it just confounds every stereotype. It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history."
    Nevertheless, with that last bit after the part I bolded, when it comes to immigration, I think the constituency within a nation-state have the right to regulate who they let into their country. They also have a right to preserve their culture as they see fit.
    it's not race that is the problem
    it's different cultures, convictions, beliefs and prejudices that are the problem
    many people have proven unable to adapt themselves in another than their native society
    multiculturalism has failed because of that, not because of different skin or hair colours

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it's not race that is the problem
    it's different cultures, convictions, beliefs and prejudices that are the problem
    many people have proven unable to adapt themselves in another than their native society
    multiculturalism has failed because of that, not because of different skin or hair colours
    Yet, Bicicleur, call it what you will, but people do judge who "belongs" and who doesn't in their society based on things like phenotype. Distrust and even hatred of "the other" is part of the human make-up whether we like it or not. It has always been a factor. The failure of "multiculturalism" in Europe is not just because new immigrants refuse to adapt themselves to native culture. It is also because the natives don't want to integrate them. They are too "foreign".

    Look at the difference between the attitude toward immigrants in Europe and in the U.S. In the U.S., if you show the slightest willingness to adapt you're accepted by most people almost immediately. You don't have to give up your headscarf or turban or eat pork or whatever, although it certainly helps. In Europe, I have two first cousins who were born in Switzerland, and they're still not considered "Swiss", and one of them is married to a Swiss German, speaks German better than Italian, and on and on.

    Even in countries like the U.S. that are built on immigration, the path to acceptance was easier the closer the incoming group was to the "natives". The Germans had an easier time than the Irish, who had an easier time than Jews and Italians, etc., and believe me, Italians of those generations were desperate to become "American".

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    Angela, and what about how Americans treat real Americans? (meaning native people of America?)

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    double post deleted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    Angela, and what about how Americans treat real Americans? (meaning native people of America?)
    Do you mean is there prejudice toward them? Yes, there is in certain areas where there are reservations. I'm sorry to say it but a lot of that is because of the high rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, child and spousal abuse, that they're on welfare etc.

    Now, much of that behavior is because Europeans who came to the continent took their land and in many cases tried to take their culture as well, so it's short sighted to blame them entirely, but most people don't think too deeply about these kinds of things and just react to what they see.

    This has been the fate of aboriginal, hunter-gatherer peoples all over the world, whether we're talking about Australia or Africa or Finland and Scandinavia. It's a tragedy: they just find it incredibly difficult to adjust to modern life.

    There's another part of the story with regard to Amerindians, however. At the same time that some people are prejudiced toward them, others in a sense romanticize them and very much want a connection to them. Lots of Americans have stories of an Amerindian ancestor, and they desperately want it to be true. That's what has driven a lot of interest in genetic testing. There are indeed some "colonial" Americans who have a small bit of it, but fewer than thought they had it. For a good number of people, either it doesn't exist, or it was actually a part SSA ancestor who was trying to pass.

    Also, as I said upthread, human beings distrust and exclude people on a scale based on similarity to themselves. Americans are still human beings. Although SSA admixed people have been here a lot longer than Poles, let's say, they're still on the bottom in the way that they're treated.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yet, Bicicleur, call it what you will, but people do judge who "belongs" and who doesn't in their society based on things like phenotype. Distrust and even hatred of "the other" is part of the human make-up whether we like it or not. It has always been a factor. The failure of "multiculturalism" in Europe is not just because new immigrants refuse to adapt themselves to native culture. It is also because the natives don't want to integrate them. They are too "foreign".

    Look at the difference between the attitude toward immigrants in Europe and in the U.S. In the U.S., if you show the slightest willingness to adapt you're accepted by most people almost immediately. You don't have to give up your headscarf or turban or eat pork or whatever, although it certainly helps. In Europe, I have two first cousins who were born in Switzerland, and they're still not considered "Swiss", and one of them is married to a Swiss German, speaks German better than Italian, and on and on.

    Even in countries like the U.S. that are built on immigration, the path to acceptance was easier the closer the incoming group was to the "natives". The Germans had an easier time than the Irish, who had an easier time than Jews and Italians, etc., and believe me, Italians of those generations were desperate to become "American".
    we've been over this several times
    and I know about your family in Switzerland
    I don't think it is the same here in Belgium, and in most places in Europe
    you say Italians were desperate to become American
    the main problem is that for decades the EU has allowed people in who were not desperate to become European, yet gave them all the benefits for which they gave very little in return
    and I admit that through these experiences native Europeans have become quite suspicious and even prejudiced against newcomers
    there was no policy toward immigration in Europe
    there was a big leftist lobby who would let everyone in
    first thing about immigration is that immigrants know very well what to expect and what not to expect and to be very firm in this
    if the immigrants would have to give a proper return for all the efforts and benefits given to them, and the natives knew this, they would be accepted quicker
    I agree that Europe still has to learn a lot about immigration

    and the U.S. is not a 100 % succes story either
    those who wanted to come to the U.S. knew the rules and knew that they had to make it themselves and they did
    that is a succes
    there is those who got in the U.S. without wanting it themselves, and there are the natives
    the black slaves didn't chose to come to the U.S.
    and allthough slavery has been abolished long time ago, they feel - rightly or not - that they are discriminated and 2nd class citizens, still after all these years

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