Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 184

Thread: Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past

  1. #101
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,233
    Points
    41,216
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,216, Level: 62
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 434
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Given that their name didn't pass to their city, ok, granted.
    But were the Luwians, Palaians, and Lydians small tribes too ? if they weren't then some admixture should have accompanied their arrival.
    I don't know. It is strange that all these Anatolian tribes emerge ca 4 ka out of nowhere, while it seperated from PIE some 2000 years earlier.

  2. #102
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    24
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't know. It is strange that all these Anatolian tribes emerge ca 4 ka out of nowhere, while it seperated from PIE some 2000 years earlier.
    They may have been there before 4 ka, the absence of written records doesn't imply they didn't exist.

  3. #103
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,769
    Points
    243,705
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,705, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    These clusters are indeed based on moderns, but I think they do "correlate" with some ancient populations.
    When you cluster people at K=3, you usually get West_Eurasian, East_Eurasian, and African clusters. at a higher K, West_Eurasian divides into a Baltic_Atlantic cluster and a Near Eastern cluster, these two ultimately divide into the four closely related clusters:
    1-Southwest Asian.
    2-Mediterranean.
    3-North European.
    4-West Asian.
    4 is different from 1, 1 is high in Arabians, Levantines, and North Africans. While 4 is Caucasian, Iranian, and South_Central Asian.
    When running ancient samples through calculators that employ this scheme, Iran_N and CHG score high levels of West Asian, European farmers have high Meditteranean, SHG are high in North European, and Natufians are high in Southwest Asian.
    At higher K, West Asian separates into two clusters: Caucasian and Baloch/Gedrosia.
    Abkhasians are a Caucasian people, they have about 50% West Asian and 25% Meditteranean, but when you have a Caucasus cluster they become 70% Caucasian, 20% Baloch, and 0% Meditteranean !! why ?
    Caucasus cluster contains the Med Alleles that were previously assigned to Meditteranean, when you run ancient samples, European farmers are now 35+ Caucasian.
    Look at this PCA, Abkhasians and Georgians, who are the modal populations for the Caucasus cluster, are closer to the Meditteranean than the Makrani and Baloch peoples, who are high in Gedrosia.

    The reason why the Yamnaya had Baloch but not Caucasus is because they didn't have adequate EEF ancestry that would make it more Caucasian.
    I don't disagree, but as Dienekes pointed out himself about his and other people's calculators, "Caucasus" is not exactly the same component in each calculator. The clusters are not always exactly the same, so, it's important not to make any concrete and rigid conclusions when using them.

    Also, I'd be wary of using the amateur analyses showing things like 35% Caucasus in EEF. Frankly, imo, most of the people posting this stuff have no idea what they're doing. They throw everything except the kitchen sink at the algorithms and if they like the result they post it. I see people mixing samples from wildly different eras, for example.

    One thing is clear. If we stick to one calculator and compare the samples, the "Caucasus" cluster increased in European farmers with time, with Copper Age Otzi having a good chunk.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    So, this movement of more CHG heavy people started in the Copper Age, and I think got even heavier in the Bronze Age.

    What I also know is that you can't look at the "Gedrosia" cluster percentages and think you're getting the "Indo-European" input in certain areas. Italy is an example. Every academic study shows that at least for Northern Italy and Tuscany, the Indo-European "steppe" percentage is around 25-30% depending on the area. That's far more than what the Gedrosia map shows.

    That's what I mean when I say that it can confuse people more than enlighten them.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #104
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,233
    Points
    41,216
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,216, Level: 62
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 434
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    They may have been there before 4 ka, the absence of written records doesn't imply they didn't exist.
    yes, but unnoticed by Assyrians or others, unlike the Hattians

  5. #105
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,233
    Points
    41,216
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,216, Level: 62
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 434
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    I just ordered my hardcover copy, but it will probably take 3 weeks to cross the Ocean and get delivered here.

  6. #106
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    hrvclv's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-03-17
    Location
    Auvergne, France
    Posts
    397
    Points
    8,421
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,421, Level: 27
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 329
    Overall activity: 61.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-DF103
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bm

    Ethnic group
    Arvern
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Also, I'd be wary of using the amateur analyses showing things like 35% Caucasus in EEF. Frankly, imo, most of the people posting this stuff have no idea what they're doing. They throw everything except the kitchen sink at the algorithms and if they like the result they post it. I see people mixing samples from wildly different eras, for example.
    One thing is clear. If we stick to one calculator and compare the samples, the "Caucasus" cluster increased in European farmers with time, with Copper Age Otzi having a good chunk.
    So, this movement of more CHG heavy people started in the Copper Age, and I think got even heavier in the Bronze Age.
    What I also know is that you can't look at the "Gedrosia" cluster percentages and think you're getting the "Indo-European" input in certain areas. Italy is an example. Every academic study shows that at least for Northern Italy and Tuscany, the Indo-European "steppe" percentage is around 25-30% depending on the area. That's far more than what the Gedrosia map shows.
    That's what I mean when I say that it can confuse people more than enlighten them.
    As one of those amateurs you quite legitimately incriminate, I confirm that those Caucasus and Gedrosia percentages have always baffled me. I have my own hypothesis about the rise of Caucasus and Gedrosia percentages in copper age Europe though. What I imagine is a rather massive wave of newcomers from the Kura-Araxes culture, distinct from and much posterior to the original Farmer migrations. A movement that would be somehow parallel (and perhaps simultaneous) to the migration from the steppe further north. They would have brought a lot of J to Greece, for example, but with Anatolia on the way, they would have been quite farmer-admixed by the time they got there - blending as much as replacing.

    They could even have spoken an Anatolian IE language. Which would explain why Mycenians spoke IE without drastically altering the autosomal makeup of ancient Greece after their arrival. Let me repeat I am an amateur. If what's above is simply foolish, feel free to say so.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

  7. #107
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,769
    Points
    243,705
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,705, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    What is really European in their mindset ? Europeans could be modelled as a mixture of the Near Eastern cline + European HG cline. anyone who fits this model is European.

    European hunter-gatherers aren't European in the same sense Near Easterners are not European.

    There's nothing logical about their stance. The scientists have been telling us for years that "Europeans" are a mixture of three ancient populations (and those are again a mixture of other ancient populations) in different proportions depending on the area. The earliest you could start talking about "Europeans" as an "ethnic" cluster is the Bronze Age.

    A lot of the furor is really just a form of disguised racism, imho. First the usual suspects wanted to define Europeans by how much WHG, because it was the "native" (really just the first to arrive, of course) group. When it turned out they might have been dark skinned, it was suddenly the EHG (the SHG were the really light ones, but there's little evidence they had a big impact) proportion that was important. However, the language, the cultural changes were "Indo-European", so that was the important thing. Unfortunately, data came out that the "Indo-Europeans" were, according to the researchers, close to 50% modern "Armenian like". That couldn't be allowed to stand. I remember what seemed like months of frantic modeling to show it wasn't so. At worst, it was half Georgian like. Somehow Georgians are more acceptable, maybe because looking "Armenian" is, for these people, associated with looking Jewish. Same goes for "Iranian like" I guess: it's too dark and Muslim as well. So, the push came to define it solely as "CHG" Caucasus "hunters" and imply they had been north of the Caucasus so they weren't REALLY Middle Easterners.

    Well, the chickens came home to roost, and before this book. The "Indo-European" ancestry by which they try to define "European-ness" is REALLY half "Middle Eastern", although now they say "West Asian", as if that's more palatable.

    It couldn't happen to more deserving people. :)

    @Ygorcs
    Why do you say steppe people and ANI were already very similar? They both had an "Iranian farmer" like component, to use Reich's terminology, heavily CHG, but the other half was wildly different: EHG vs. ASI

    I don't know why it should be surprising if all of India was ASI before the arrival of the Iranian farmers and the steppe people. All of Europe was WHG. All of the New World was Amerindian, mostly from one migration pulse.

    @Yetos,
    The Caspian shores look like a good bet also just going by the geography: that's the only corridor I see other than some mountain passes.

    We've discussed this on the site a lot of times.

    I'm really interested to see if they have the pertinent Iranian samples, and Maykop as well.

    @Bicicleur,
    If it is some form of R1b the pertinent samples may be unpublished, coming perhaps from areas closer to Iran. Years ago Jean Manco had speculated that perhaps R1b and R1a could have spent part of the year south of the Caucasus. Who knows, maybe she was right.

    It could also be another y lineage, however, perhaps the more "northern" G2a or J2b.

    It seems to me that the Indo-European speakers in Anatolia covered a pretty wide area:



    I know that the samples Reich is talking about were from southwestern Anatolia. So, you'd think there'd be some hint of "steppe" in that area, no?

  8. #108
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered10000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
    Posts
    911
    Points
    12,340
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,340, Level: 33
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 310
    Overall activity: 48.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    There were two Indoeuropean expansions into Europe, one north that created EHG-CHG people in the Steppe, and one west that mixed with local farmers and spread R1b-L51, the Gedrosian component is related to the Indoeuropeans who expanded west.
    I haven't heard this one before.





    This is Maciamo's explanation on the R1b page:

    Towards the end of the 5th millennium, an elite starts to develop with cattle, horses and copper used as status symbols. It is at the turn of the Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog periods that R1b-M269's main subclade, L23, is thought to have appeared, around 4,500 BCE. 99% of Indo-European R1b descends from this L23 clade. The other branch descended from M269 is PF7562, which is found mostly in the Balkans, Turkey and Armenia today, and may represent an early Steppe migration to the Balkans dating from the Sredny Stog period.











    From this article https://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.am/:

    ""In the mythology of the ancient Greeks, the Illyrians and Celts are relatives: "A later version of this mythic genealogy gives as parents Polyphemus and Galatea, who gave birth to Celtus, Galas, and Illyrius, three brothers, progenitors respectively of Celts, Galatians and Illyrians expresses perceived similarities to Celts and Gauls on the part of the mythographe. " Carriers PF7562 and Z2103 in Bashkortostan and Dagestan are descendants of representatives of a pit archaeological culture: the sub-Bashkirs and Dagestanis are the same as the fossil remains of the Yam culture. Yamnaya culture"



    Do these distributions and maps align?

    Also I think J2b2-L283 seems to corroborate with M269:



    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  9. #109
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,769
    Points
    243,705
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,705, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    I haven't heard this one before.





    This is Maciamo's explanation on the R1b page:

    Towards the end of the 5th millennium, an elite starts to develop with cattle, horses and copper used as status symbols. It is at the turn of the Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog periods that R1b-M269's main subclade, L23, is thought to have appeared, around 4,500 BCE. 99% of Indo-European R1b descends from this L23 clade. The other branch descended from M269 is PF7562, which is found mostly in the Balkans, Turkey and Armenia today, and may represent an early Steppe migration to the Balkans dating from the Sredny Stog period.











    From this article https://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.am/:

    ""In the mythology of the ancient Greeks, the Illyrians and Celts are relatives: "A later version of this mythic genealogy gives as parents Polyphemus and Galatea, who gave birth to Celtus, Galas, and Illyrius, three brothers, progenitors respectively of Celts, Galatians and Illyrians expresses perceived similarities to Celts and Gauls on the part of the mythographe. " Carriers PF7562 and Z2103 in Bashkortostan and Dagestan are descendants of representatives of a pit archaeological culture: the sub-Bashkirs and Dagestanis are the same as the fossil remains of the Yam culture. Yamnaya culture"



    Do these distributions and maps align?

    Also I think J2b2-L283 seems to corroborate with M269:



    Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that there is a too rigid attempt to precisely align yDna lineage with language.

    Y lines can be wildly different in terms of autosomal make up. Just look at the J1 sample in Karelia, or all the I2a farmers in Europe. Language is the same. The language a y line speaks can differ over time. Look at all the R1b and R1a Turkic speakers.

    The question which I find very interesting is whether the so called "West Asian" lineages of R1b, the more upstream ones that show up a lot in the Balkans and southern Italy as well as in the Middle East are all from originally non-Indo-European speaking people, or if some of it is from early "Anatolian" Indo-European speakers.

    It would really help to know the y lines of the non J2a Mycenaeans, although the argument could still be made that it came early from the steppe, as was Maciamo's position.

    That's why I want to start reading the book, to see if there are any further clues as to which way the Reich Lab is leaning in terms of whether the first Greek speakers came down from the steppe through the Balkans, or perhaps from the northern Anatolian coast.

    One factor not to lose sight of is that we're now finding a lot of ancient R1b in the Balkans. If it was also in the Caucasus or nearby, we're talking about an incredible range.

  10. #110
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-08-17
    Posts
    175
    Points
    3,123
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,123, Level: 16
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 327
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    Let's make things clear. Hittite and Luwian were both very closely related, Lydian on the other hand, is quite different from Hittite and Luwian despite being part of the Anatolian branch of the Indoeuropean family, also while Luwian and Hittite are recorded since the second millenium bc, Lydian is only attested since the 8-7th century bc, and because of this some scholars believe Lydians might have migrated to Lydia after the bronze age , because the only bronze age inscriptions from the area that would later become Lydia in the iron age are all Luwian. Also let's not confuse Lydian with Lycian, although the names sound similar, Lycian is considered to be a dialect of Luwian, along with the Carian, Sidetic and Pisidic languages.

  11. #111
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,769
    Points
    243,705
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,705, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    Please let's not mix things up. Hittite and Luwian were both very closely related, Lydian on the other hand, is quite different from Hittite and Luwian despite being part of the Anatolian branch of the Indoeuropean family, also while Luwian and Hittite are recorded since the second millenium bc, Lydian is only attested since the 8-7th century bc, and because of this some scholars believe Lydians might have migrated to Lydia after the bronze age , because the only bronze age inscriptions from the area that would later become Lydia in the iron age are all Luwian. Also let's not confuse Lydian with Lycian, although the names sound similar, Lycian is considered to be a dialect of Luwian, along with the Carian, Sidetic and Pisidic languages.
    All very interesting, but the fact remains that if the speakers of those languages arrived in Anatolia from the steppe via the Balkans, we should see quite a bit of WHG and EHG, and from the samples which have been published from southwestern Anatolia where Anatolian languages were present, they're not there.

    Now, that's not a lot of samples, but given the Reich Lab has 2000 analyzed but not published samples, and he's going out on a limb with a speculation like this, I think it may be true either that the "Anatolian" languages originated in Anatolia, or perhaps that they moved south through the Caucasus. Since he doesn't mention that as a possibility, perhaps they have other samples from around Leyla Tepe, for example, or from the Stans that leads him to believe the first form of IE was spoken south of the Caucasus.

    I don't know what the real answer is. Even given who he is, without a paper and actual samples, I can't make a judgment.

  12. #112
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,161
    Points
    38,812
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,812, Level: 60
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 238
    Overall activity: 53.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    These clusters are indeed based on moderns, but I think they do "correlate" with some ancient populations.

    When you cluster people at K=3, you usually get West_Eurasian, East_Eurasian, and African clusters. at a higher K, West_Eurasian divides into a Baltic_Atlantic cluster and a Near Eastern cluster, these two ultimately divide into the four closely related clusters:

    1-Southwest Asian.
    2-Mediterranean.
    3-North European.
    4-West Asian.

    4 is different from 1, 1 is high in Arabians, Levantines, and North Africans. While 4 is Caucasian, Iranian, and South_Central Asian.

    When running ancient samples through calculators that employ this scheme, Iran_N and CHG score high levels of West Asian, European farmers have high Meditteranean, SHG are high in North European, and Natufians are high in Southwest Asian.

    At higher K, West Asian separates into two clusters: Caucasian and Baloch/Gedrosia.

    Abkhasians are a Caucasian people, they have about 50% West Asian and 25% Meditteranean, but when you have a Caucasus cluster they become 70% Caucasian, 20% Baloch, and 0% Meditteranean !! why ?

    Caucasus cluster contains the Med Alleles that were previously assigned to Meditteranean, when you run ancient samples, European farmers are now 35+ Caucasian.

    Look at this PCA, Abkhasians and Georgians, who are the modal populations for the Caucasus cluster, are closer to the Meditteranean than the Makrani and Baloch peoples, who are high in Gedrosia.



    The reason why the Yamnaya had Baloch but not Caucasus is because they didn't have adequate EEF ancestry that would make it more Caucasian.

    Τhank you Iron
    but I think you just add a clue to my observation,

    cause I still believe that aryan came from Steppe to Yamnaa
    but made a circle of caspian sea,

    I have the feeling,
    and the vision of IEanisation of steppe,

    I mean could Gedrosian be IEanised ?
    and then enter Europe from North paths of Caucasus??

    and become so high to Europe, especially Western after the known plate disease strikes,
    as immune?

    straight as possible,
    could Gedrosian not to be a proto-mark of IE,
    but a second IEnised and then expand?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  13. #113
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,161
    Points
    38,812
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,812, Level: 60
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 238
    Overall activity: 53.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    for those who think R1b-M269 crossed the Caucasus to get to the Pontic steppe, I think it is strange we don't find any in early Armenian
    afaik the earliest is the Yamna R1b-Z2103 and it postdates Yamna

    if the PIE was in Transkaukasia, it is not sure they were R1b-M269

    as for the Hittites, bear in mind that it was a multilinqual, multi-ethnical empire under IE leadership
    proof of that is to be found in the multilingual library of Hatussa
    it was not a solid block like Egypt, it was more a confederacy of semi-autonomous tribes paying tribute to the Hittite kings
    every time the Hittite king went to war, he had to ask a military contingency from each of these tribes
    that made the empire weak every time there was a dispute over succession

    the Hittite empire came to existence when a small IE tribe conquered the land of the Hatti, who were non-IE
    before that the Assyrians had their own free-trade zone in the land of the Hatti, maybe even a colony

    but weren't there other languages of the 'Anatolian branch' like e.g. Luwian?

    hm
    I am thinking

    Hettit and Hattian are the most known in the Hettit empire,

    could it be the Same as Mycenean Minoan?
    as the last Lazarides papper?

    you jusτ add a new horizon to see the view
    or you just deceive my view?

    hmmm

  14. #114
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    24
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There's nothing logical about their stance. The scientists have been telling us for years that "Europeans" are a mixture of three ancient populations (and those are again a mixture of other ancient populations) in different proportions depending on the area. The earliest you could start talking about "Europeans" as an "ethnic" cluster is the Bronze Age.

    A lot of the furor is really just a form of disguised racism, imho. First the usual suspects wanted to define Europeans by how much WHG, because it was the "native" (really just the first to arrive, of course) group. When it turned out they might have been dark skinned, it was suddenly the EHG (the SHG were the really light ones, but there's little evidence they had a big impact) proportion that was important. However, the language, the cultural changes were "Indo-European", so that was the important thing. Unfortunately, data came out that the "Indo-Europeans" were, according to the researchers, close to 50% modern "Armenian like". That couldn't be allowed to stand. I remember what seemed like months of frantic modeling to show it wasn't so. At worst, it was half Georgian like. Somehow Georgians are more acceptable, maybe because looking "Armenian" is, for these people, associated with looking Jewish. Same goes for "Iranian like" I guess: it's too dark and Muslim as well. So, the push came to define it solely as "CHG" Caucasus "hunters" and imply they had been north of the Caucasus so they weren't REALLY Middle Easterners.

    Well, the chickens came home to roost, and before this book. The "Indo-European" ancestry by which they try to define "European-ness" is REALLY half "Middle Eastern", although now they say "West Asian", as if that's more palatable.

    It couldn't happen to more deserving people. :)
    Well, as long as they dont have political influence, who cares :)

    Middle Easterns should turn out to be a mixture of Basal Eurasians and groups related to European hunter-gatherers, with further dilution of Basal compared to the Neolithic, by ancestry in the direction of Europe actually. We're composed of the same elements, with different proportions.

    That doesn't mean racism is justified when we're not descended from the same populations :) I just felt saying that. must be my diplomatic leaning personality.

  15. #115
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,769
    Points
    243,705
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,705, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Well, as long as they dont have political influence, who cares :)
    Middle Easterns should turn out to be a mixture of Basal Eurasians and groups related to European hunter-gatherers, with further dilution of Basal compared to the Neolithic, by ancestry in the direction of Europe actually. We're composed of the same elements, with different proportions.
    That doesn't mean racism is justified when we're not descended from the same populations :) I just felt saying that. must be my diplomatic leaning personality.
    Looks to me like they have a lot of political influence in Eastern Europe, and look set to have more, and it's starting in Western Europe, too. Goebbels said that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth. He's right. Sometimes what look like ridiculous, stupid demagogues amass a lot of power.

    Sorry, but I think you have a very short-sighted view, particularly as a member of a group that would be targeted.

  16. #116
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,161
    Points
    38,812
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,812, Level: 60
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 238
    Overall activity: 53.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that there is a too rigid attempt to precisely align yDna lineage with language.

    Y lines can be wildly different in terms of autosomal make up. Just look at the J1 sample in Karelia, or all the I2a farmers in Europe. Language is the same. The language a y line speaks can differ over time. Look at all the R1b and R1a Turkic speakers.

    The question which I find very interesting is whether the so called "West Asian" lineages of R1b, the more upstream ones that show up a lot in the Balkans and southern Italy as well as in the Middle East are all from originally non-Indo-European speaking people, or if some of it is from early "Anatolian" Indo-European speakers.

    It would really help to know the y lines of the non J2a Mycenaeans, although the argument could still be made that it came early from the steppe, as was Maciamo's position.

    That's why I want to start reading the book, to see if there are any further clues as to which way the Reich Lab is leaning in terms of whether the first Greek speakers came down from the steppe through the Balkans, or perhaps from the northern Anatolian coast.

    One factor not to lose sight of is that we're now finding a lot of ancient R1b in the Balkans. If it was also in the Caucasus or nearby, we're talking about an incredible range.

    AT LAST

    I love you now,

    That is the main problem,

    and that creates more Questions,
    for example

    the root of 'Lazarides' proved genetically Myceneans and their road,
    IS TOTTALY OUT OF YAMNAANS

    So instead of one migration from steppe to Yamnaa to Europe
    We might had 2 tottaly unconnected different migrations

    and in my eyes there is also the iron age Schytian migration
    a 3rd wave heavily steppe.


    AND TO CONTINUE
    IF WE CONSIDER G as IE
    especially the G2a, Kleitos etc
    THEN WE MIGHT HAVE IE SPOKEN IN BALKANS MUCH BEFORE R1b and R1a,

    WHICH MEANS THAT R1b/R1a Genetical marks does not fit with where PIE first spoken

    But got IEanised just before enter Europe.
    and/but its migration show the IE language expansion only,
    But not the proto-land of where IE spoken
    (allow me to use the term proto-land, I do not know how else to express it)

  17. #117
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,769
    Points
    243,705
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,705, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    AT LAST

    I love you now,

    That is the main problem,

    and that creates more Questions,
    for example

    the root of 'Lazarides' proved genetically Myceneans and their road,
    IS TOTTALY OUT OF YAMNAANS

    So instead of one migration from steppe to Yamnaa to Europe
    We might had 2 tottaly unconnected different migrations

    and in my eyes there is also the iron age Schytian migration
    a 3rd wave heavily steppe.


    AND TO CONTINUE
    IF WE CONSIDER G as IE
    especially the G2a, Kleitos etc
    THEN WE MIGHT HAVE IE SPOKEN IN BALKANS MUCH BEFORE R1b and R1a,

    Which means that R1b/R1a is not the genetical mark of first place IE spoken
    But got IEnised just before enter Europe.
    and its migration show the IE language expansion,
    But not the proto-land of where IE spoken
    (allow me to use the term proto-land, I do not know how else to express it)
    You should have loved me all along; I always thought there were two possibilities! :)

    An interesting fact is that Afghans may be even more "steppe" than Europeans. I think they have 50% or more "steppe". Does that mean they're more "European" than Spaniards, and able to fit into European culture? This is the kind of unintended consequences you get from the stupidity that some of the people in this hobby peddle.

    The Scythians were Tajik like from what I've seen, which actually makes sense. Remember all the modeling trying to prove they were Slavs?

    What a tangled web, indeed.

  18. #118
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    24
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Looks to me like they have a lot of political influence in Eastern Europe, and look set to have more, and it's starting in Western Europe, too. Goebbels said that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth. He's right. Sometimes what look like ridiculous, stupid demagogues amass a lot of power.

    Sorry, but I think you have a very short-sighted view, particularly as a member of a group that would be targeted.
    Maybe I have :) we all die eventually.

    As to my group being targeted, my group doesn't think we're one group, we still target each other :)

  19. #119
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,161
    Points
    38,812
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,812, Level: 60
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 238
    Overall activity: 53.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You should have loved me all along; I always thought there were two possibilities! :)

    An interesting fact is that Afghans may be even more "steppe" than Europeans. I think they have 50% or more "steppe". Does that mean they're more "European" than Spaniards, and able to fit into European culture? This is the kind of unintended consequences you get from the stupidity that some of the people in this hobby peddle.

    The Scythians were Tajik like from what I've seen, which actually makes sense. Remember all the modeling trying to prove they were Slavs?

    What a tangled web, indeed.
    personally I believe that Scythians contribute to Slavic identification/ethnogenesis
    but not the oposite.

    in fact I believe they were Steppe Satem para-Aryan speakers,
    and ancient historians describe quite well considering them outer-Persians (Iranians)
    or maybe due to linguistic Satem ? ....


    there are thoughts,
    that we all afraid to express,
    since we are all not gods,
    and in a very open new field as genetics
    EACH YEAR WE MIGHT REGREAT WHAT WE SAID THE YEAR BEFORE,
    yet as search 'walks' better say runs,
    today we have some stable to consider as basis,

  20. #120
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,161
    Points
    38,812
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,812, Level: 60
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 238
    Overall activity: 53.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    As the power of my mouse




    HIS NAME IS ΜΥΣ Ο ΠΟΝΤΙΚΟΣ
    BLACK SEA MOUSE,
    he loves to travel with ships, and live in harbors

    AND HE IS POWERFULL

    consider that he Killed millions of humans
    some still consider it responsible for

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Athens


    neither is he, a 'weak' against humans




  21. #121
    Moderator Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,698
    Points
    25,380
    Level
    48
    Points: 25,380, Level: 48
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 170
    Overall activity: 18.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post

    Hey, completely off topic, but I couldn't resist this doubt: why is WHG so distant from EHG? I thought I had read that EHG was basically a mix of something like WHG with (a minor percentage of, something ~30%) ANE. Isn't that right? If EHG and WHG shared a large percentage of their ancestry, why would they be so unlike each other in the PCA?

  22. #122
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    IronSide's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-10-16
    Age
    24
    Posts
    883
    Points
    8,064
    Level
    26
    Points: 8,064, Level: 26
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

    Country: United Arab Emirates



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Hey, completely off topic, but I couldn't resist this doubt: why is WHG so distant from EHG? I thought I had read that EHG was basically a mix of something like WHG with (a minor percentage of, something ~30%) ANE. Isn't that right? If EHG and WHG shared a large percentage of their ancestry, why would they be so unlike each other in the PCA?
    No, the majority of the ancestry of EHG is ANE, which they share with Native Americans. about 75% ANE, the rest is WHG.


  23. #123
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Falco's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-08-17
    Posts
    28
    Points
    1,553
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,553, Level: 11
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 297
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is what I meant above about the modeling using "Iran Farmer":


    Steppe:
    Steppe pastorialist = Iran farmers + Steppe hunter gatheres (note distinction between Iran farmers with EEF and Anatolian below)

    India:
    ASI = Iran Farmers + Indian hunters
    ANI = Steppe pastorialist + Iran farmers
    Present India = ANI + ASI

    Europe:
    European farmers (EEF) = Anatolian farmer + European hunter gatherers
    Northern European (Bronze age) =Eastern european farmer + Steppe pastorialist
    South European Aegeans (Bronze age) =Iran farmers + European farmers
    Present day Europeans = North + South european bronze age populations


    I don't see anything there about steppe into Aegean Bronze Age. Is he going with the Greek from Anatolia scenario?

    For ANI by Iranian farmers do they mean BMAC farmers?
    How exactly can Iranian Farmer be modeled? Judging from the chart just above my post it looks like Neolithic Iranian is about half Basal Eurasian but what else? That chart doesn't specify.

  24. #124
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,161
    Points
    38,812
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,812, Level: 60
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 238
    Overall activity: 53.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    i posted in another thread,

    I am repeating my shelf,
    Sorry,

    many times I even deny myshelf
    many times I choose nearby areas,
    passage through Caucasus

    but seems new aproach suggests this model
    for the listuistic term of IE,



    and not this





    Gush how many years to pass to crystalize our view?

    @ Ironside

    consider about Ballochi and caucasian in Yamnaa,
    which model fits best you believe?

  25. #125
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,769
    Points
    243,705
    Level
    100
    Points: 243,705, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    As one of those amateurs you quite legitimately incriminate, I confirm that those Caucasus and Gedrosia percentages have always baffled me. I have my own hypothesis about the rise of Caucasus and Gedrosia percentages in copper age Europe though. What I imagine is a rather massive wave of newcomers from the Kura-Araxes culture, distinct from and much posterior to the original Farmer migrations. A movement that would be somehow parallel (and perhaps simultaneous) to the migration from the steppe further north. They would have brought a lot of J to Greece, for example, but with Anatolia on the way, they would have been quite farmer-admixed by the time they got there - blending as much as replacing.
    They could even have spoken an Anatolian IE language. Which would explain why Mycenians spoke IE without drastically altering the autosomal makeup of ancient Greece after their arrival. Let me repeat I am an amateur. If what's above is simply foolish, feel free to say so.
    Well, I guess we're both foolish if that's wrong, because I've said something similar in the past, at least in so far as I've speculated that there might have been a sort of pincer like movement of "CHG like" ancestry, with one going onto the steppe and then from there into at least central and northern Europe, and one going more westward across Anatolia, hitting southeast Europe and Italy more heavily, but also filtering through into Iberia, and then moving north from those areas.

    I've referred back to the old Dienekes idea of the Caucasus as a sort of "womb of nations", a continuation of what happened with the Neolithic farmers spreading north/northwest to other parts of West Asia and Europe, southeast to India, south to Egypt and Africa, and west, also along the southern coast of the Mediterranean, i.e. North Africa. Then the steppe component also radiated to far flung areas.

    Where I differ is in holding that the Gedrosia component is the only one that tracks the movements from the steppe. If that were the case, why does the map of it show much less than the 25-30% of steppe we know is in Northern Italy and Tuscany, for example?

    We're all amateurs, btw, even the famous bloggers. Some of us have just been at it for ten years and more.

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •