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Thread: Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Why do you think that's wrong ? do you have evidence to support your claim ?
    i think its first mentioned in the study from haak who first looked at 2 such alleles. he found that they were missing in WHG. one of them was present in EEF. both of them were fixated in SHG.

    now if those facts were correct i would have nothing against the magazin but they wrote incorrect and unclear info. and i think that politics are the only real reason why they did it. the writer may have thought that it would make no sense to talk about SHG or EHG because the most important thing is to show that WHG had darker skin and europeans got the alleles for light skin from farmers. the rest is not important and uninteressting. politics have nothing to look for here and it's just sad how scientist fear with every step they do what kind of signal they send. they basically become politicians themselves.

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    Reich has tested 3748 samples, of which only ~700 have been published (as of nov12, 2017).

    I think that this is an indication that he might know not just "some" things that aren't public yet, but LOTS.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Judging from how people define themselves below their avatars on this forum, I'd say we should clearly distinguish between ethnicity and the consciousness of ethnicity. By the way, does ethnicity exist outside that consciousness of one's ethnicity ? In other words, ethnicity may be a social construct, but it is primarily a psychological, personal, intimate construct.

    As a social construct, transient as you seem to consider it, it did not emerge out of the blue. Just like your autosomal makeup at a given time in a given place is the result of previous encounters and changes, ethnicity is the outcome of military events, social uprisings, cultural choices, etc... It doesn't exist apart from the others, in fact it does exist thanks to the others, who prioritized their options (slightly or significantly) differently. It is defined and conditioned by history, the history of men and the history of ideas. Our present is child to our past. As such, it is indeed not a "permanent essence", but it can be a reliable element of reference to build a behavior on.

    Alongside that cultural/historical dimension of ethnicity, there is the idea each individual forms of his ethnicity - his own intimate feeling of who he is. That too may be subject to alteration and change over time. The question is: Can we violate that ? Can we judge ? Everyone is entitled to develop his own self-image, as long as it does not drive him to harm his fellow human brothers. Ethnicity is eminently subjective, and as such, disconnected from how much DNA (real or assumed) one got from a given group. It has to do with Myth, not with time and space. It is beyond control, that's why it sometimes turns dangerous, when self-criticism and self-restraint fail.
    Can’t add to this... well-formulated thoughts that agree with my mindset!

  4. #154
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    An interesting question was raised on Razib Khan's blog about the coalescence of mtDna in relation to the place of the San in the tree of human splits.

    "Something that confused me very early on in the book- the San are shown branching off from the rest of humanity prior to Mitochondrial Eve. How can Eve be a common ancestor in this case? Admixture?"

    "
    Calibration on the coalescence of the last common ancestor of all mitochondrial DNA lineages for humans has changed several times, the last estimates are for a time to last common ancestor for all mtDNA lineages being around 100 to 200 thousand years ago. This is curious in light of the fact that both fossils and genomics are starting to suggest that anatomically modern humans emerged in their current form 200 to 400 thousand years ago.The shallower coalescence isn’t that surprising. Y and mtDNA both have lower effective population sizes and so higher turnover rates. These high turnover rates mean the extinction of other lineages. As most of you know, the extinction of these mtDNA lineages does not mean that the genetic material of other women alive at the same time as “mtDNA Eve” is not present in modern humans (though who knows what it means to say there’s distinctive genetic material left after all these generations with recombination). Eve was always simply a personification of the coalescence of the mtDNA genealogy. Both the Y and mtDNA phylogenies and coalescence were useful in their time. They pointed to the likely important role of Africa in the origin of modern humans, and the relatively recent time depth of our species. But their coalescence at a specific time was somewhat random around a certain expected value. This is why it was not surprising at all that “Y chromosomal Adam” and “mtDNA Eve” lived at different times (there is some evidence that the Y chromosome has had a lower long-term effective population size).
    The above question is inspired by the fact that San Bushmen seem to diverge earlier in their total genome than in their mtDNA. There’s always been a distinction in the literature between demographic divergence between two populations, and the divergence of their genetic genealogies. Oftentimes daughter populations share genetic variation that dates back to before their separation. But sometimes, you have this situation where it seems that the starting point of genetic variation post-dates the divergence between population.
    What’s the explanation? I think the simplest one is admixture and reciprocal gene flow, as implied by the commenter. In fact, Pontus Skoglund’s latest African ancient DNA paper implies that there was some sort of isolation-by-distance cline in the eastern part of the continent, from modern Ethiopia far to the south."

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...medium=twitter


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    It seems to me that the San are the result of an admixture of a more recent population coming from the north maybe some 80 ka with Y-DNA A1b1 and an old 'ghost' population that was allready in Southern Africa 300 ka or earlier.

    The same goes for the Aterians, descendants from the Irhoud skulls in the Atlas Mts. None of their DNA is known, but recently it has been suggested that Yoruba also contains some archaïc 'ghost' DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    It seems to me that the San are the result of an admixture of a more recent population coming from the north maybe some 80 ka with Y-DNA A1b1 and an old 'ghost' population that was allready in Southern Africa 300 ka or earlier.
    The same goes for the Aterians, descendants from the Irhoud skulls in the Atlas Mts. None of their DNA is known, but recently it has been suggested that Yoruba also contains some archaïc 'ghost' DNA.
    Razib also thinks they're the result of admixture:

    "And, it may also turn out that the San Bushmen themselves are an admixture between two very different populations, one more like other eastern Africans, and one basal to this clade. If so, then it may be that their divergence estimate is a compound, and the most divergent mtDNA lineages come from the eastern African population that mixed with the more basal population."

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Yes, the originally non-Indoeuropean speaking area was in the Eastern and Central-Northern Anatolia. That's why I believe Reich is wrong, although that region certainly played a role for Armenian and Indo-Iranian (at least Western Iranian) .Luwians were in the west and south.What Renfrew believes is irrelevant for me. I was never a fan.
    Luwians where in the east of anatolia and eventually migrated west

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOd_hodh7Mc

    They are non-semetic linguistic group ............hitties at the end converted to Luwian
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Luwians where in the east of anatolia and eventually migrated west

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOd_hodh7Mc

    They are non-semetic linguistic group ............hitties at the end converted to Luwian
    Sorry. Maybe I should have used the term Eastern Turkey.

    If the term Anatolia is used for that region, a SE origin is possible.


    The Hattian part was towards the NE and the Hurrian-related outside it.

    (I didn't watch the video because, even though I like how she writes the presentation is boring.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Razib also thinks they're the result of admixture:
    "And, it may also turn out that the San Bushmen themselves are an admixture between two very different populations, one more like other eastern Africans, and one basal to this clade. If so, then it may be that their divergence estimate is a compound, and the most divergent mtDNA lineages come from the eastern African population that mixed with the more basal population."
    A1b1 is the brother of BT, the Nubian Complex clade which arrived in Arabia at least 106 ka
    so A1b1 would be a Nubian Complex clade that stayed in Africa, ancestral to the northeastern ancestor of the San (Nubian Complex was northeastern African in origin)
    this culture may be the result of the San mixture :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stillbay
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howiesons_Poort
    they were quite advanced at that time

    I think the godfather of Nubian Complex is A0-T (TMRCA 161.3 ka)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/A0-T/
    this clade includes all extant humans except the vey rare A00 clade

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    The fact that were able to ask those questions makes life a little more special if not significant. Finding out that others are and can be excited as a gift especially when so much of life has become a collection of tweets. The fact that the search brings us closer to a core truth is one of hose defining moments. Yet the greatest piece of the puzzle is sharing our insights. It never stops building a story that motivates me to dig deeper still. Thanks for sharing the magic of the search.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    John Hawks has written a review about Reich's book.

    See:
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-we-...ome-1523399111

    Frankly, I think it's much ado about nothing. Reich could have been more diplomatic about the hesitancy of indigenous people to give permission for some of these remains to be used, but honestly, we're talking about an ear bone! How are we forgetting about the humanity of this individual human being by grinding up a small piece of his ear. I think we're honoring it. We'll learn far more about him and about our shared humanity from analyzing it in this way than by putting it on a shelf and looking at it the way physical anthropologists do.

    Obviously, I think we should treat the remains with respect and dignity. I mentioned on this thread that I didn't like the way Zink was handling the remains of Oetzi and the way he spoke about him.

    The only thing with which I agree is that David Reich is very naive about how "political", and yes, agenda driven some people are about these remains and any potential results. He thinks most people are objective or try to be, but he's wrong about that. He gives them too much credit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    John Hawks has written a review about Reich's book.

    See:
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/who-we-...ome-1523399111

    Frankly, I think it's much ado about nothing. Reich could have been more diplomatic about the hesitancy of indigenous people to give permission for some of these remains to be used, but honestly, we're talking about an ear bone! How are we forgetting about the humanity of this individual human being by grinding up a small piece of his ear. I think we're honoring it. We'll learn far more about him and about our shared humanity from analyzing it in this way than by putting it on a shelf and looking at it the way physical anthropologists do.

    Obviously, I think we should treat the remains with respect and dignity. I mentioned on this thread that I didn't like the way Zink was handling the remains of Oetzi and the way he spoke about him.

    The only thing with which I agree is that David Reich is very naive about how "political", and yes, agenda driven some people are about these remains and any potential results. He thinks most people are objective or try to be, but he's wrong about that. He gives them too much credit.
    I agree, the potential of understanding more about these ancient individuals is far more important than just preserving the bones. The information that we can get from them serves to honor their memory. It gives them even greater importance, than they previously had.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here's a Q&A with David Reich that was published earlier today.

    http://www.newswise.com/articles/the...st-david-reich

    Here's details on the type of grant they are using, that was also in the article. Check out the results tab, it has links to the papers they've published with it.

    https://projectreporter.nih.gov/proj...fm?aid=9304269

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    Thank you for sharing the the latest updates. Newswise
    The capacity to see beyond the highs and lows of both success and failure. Any time questions and answers are shared it opens a new perspective.

    For the past few decades, new evidence aboutancient humans—in the form of skeletal remains, tools, and other artifacts—hastrickled in, inching us closer to an understanding of how our species evolvedand spread out across the planet. In just the past few years, however,knowledge of our deep past expanded significantly thanks to a series oftechnological breakthroughs in sequencing of ancient human genomes. Thistechnology can be used to find genetic links among populations of humanancestors dating back hundreds of thousands of years.In addition to advances in genomic technology,another factor is driving the explosion of new discoveriesaninch-long section of the human skull. Found near our ears, this pyramid-shapedportion of the temporal bone is nicknamed the petrous bone. The bone is veryhard, possibly because it needs to protect fragile structures such as thecochlea, which translates sound into brain signals, and the semicircularcanals, which help us maintain our balance. Perhaps because the petrous bone isso dense, it also is the bone in the body that best preserves DNA after aperson dies. As a result, archaeologists are scrambling to study samples takenfrom this pyramid-shaped structure to unlock the mysteries of our species’formative years.
    To learn more about the petrousbone and its use in archaeology, as well as other advances in the field, Ispoke with NIGMS grantee David Reich, a genetic archaeologist from Harvard Medical Schooland the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, and one of the world’s leading expertsin ancient human DNA.
    I couldn't stop thinking about the significance of recent finds and discoveries.

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    http://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2018...rd-david-reich

    Here's a radio interview with David Reich that came out yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    http://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2018...rd-david-reich

    Here's a radio interview with David Reich that came out yesterday.
    The thing that struck me the most is when he explained that the general public loses respect for science when it pronounces things which simple common sense indicates just isn't true, and that even if western scientists don't pursue these topics, scientists in other parts of the world undoubtedly will, so western scientists need to engage with this material and guide the public in how it should be interpreted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The thing that struck me the most is when he explained that the general public loses respect for science when it pronounces things which simple common sense indicates just isn't true, and that even if western scientists don't pursue these topics, scientists in other parts of the world undoubtedly will, so western scientists need to engage with this material and guide the public in how it should be interpreted.
    I thought that was a compelling statement as well. Also, when he said, if we don't have objective scientific analysis to be a guide, the void will be filled with pseudo-science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I thought that was a compelling statement as well. Also, when he said, if we don't have objective scientific analysis to be a guide, the void will be filled with pseudo-science.
    That's exactly right.

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    The most informative chapter to me was the one on Africa, it really changed my perspective on the history of the continent.

    Africa is far from the static background where nothing happened, its genetic history is quite young compared to Eurasia, with a lot of migrations and linguistic groups. Farmers from West Africa changed the history of the continent forever, their migrations spread Bantu languages.

    Nilo-Saharan speakers are cattle herders in the East, but what is their origin? they're not identical to East African foragers (similar to Hadza), because they share more than half the ancestry with West African farmers, did they migrate from the west ?

    When did West Eurasian ancestry arrive to East Africa? Mota is not that old, Bronze Age? and still no WEur ancestry, the chapter argues for an early Iron Age date for a vast migration. If that is the case, where were they before? Arabia? what caused them to move?

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    1 members found this post helpful.


    New second edition coming out next month!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    New second edition coming out next month!
    He'll need to make a new edition every year it seems :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    New second edition coming out next month!
    I've checked almost every day this month, and I still haven't seen a new edition yet. Perhaps David Reich decided to wait on it due to other significant discoveries that are currently in progress? There's still a couple days left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I've checked almost every day this month, and I still haven't seen a new edition yet. Perhaps David Reich decided to wait on it due to other significant discoveries that are currently in progress? There's still a couple days left.
    there is not so much news lately
    are all the skeletons and other human remains with good prospects for DNA typing done?
    do we have to wait till fresh skeletons will be discovered?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is not so much news lately
    are all the skeletons and other human remains with good prospects for DNA typing done?
    do we have to wait till fresh skeletons will be discovered?
    Doesn't the Reich Lab alone have a couple of thousand specimens? they just have to analyze them all and prepare papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Doesn't the Reich Lab alone have a couple of thousand specimens? they just have to analyze them all and prepare papers.
    what's the matter then?
    what takes them so long?

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