Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past

[Saetrus]

I haven't heard this one before.





This is Maciamo's explanation on the R1b page:

Towards the end of the 5th millennium, an elite starts to develop with cattle, horses and copper used as status symbols. It is at the turn of the Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog periods that R1b-M269's main subclade, L23, is thought to have appeared, around 4,500 BCE. 99% of Indo-European R1b descends from this L23 clade. The other branch descended from M269 is PF7562, which is found mostly in the Balkans, Turkey and Armenia today, and may represent an early Steppe migration to the Balkans dating from the Sredny Stog period.

From this article https://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.am/:

""In the mythology of the ancient Greeks, the Illyrians and Celts are relatives: "A later version of this mythic genealogy gives as parents Polyphemus and Galatea, who gave birth to Celtus, Galas, and Illyrius, three brothers, progenitors respectively of Celts, Galatians and Illyrians expresses perceived similarities to Celts and Gauls on the part of the mythographe. " Carriers PF7562 and Z2103 in Bashkortostan and Dagestan are descendants of representatives of a pit archaeological culture: the sub-Bashkirs and Dagestanis are the same as the fossil remains of the Yam culture. Yamnaya culture"



Do these distributions and maps align?

Also I think J2b2-L283 seems to corroborate with M269:

R1b-M269 was not in the Steppe, the variance of R1b-M269 is heavily concentrated in the Shulaveri-Shomu area meaning it was there for a long time before it went anywhere else

Only R1b-Z2103 went north, the rest of R1b-L23 was part of the expansion west(Centum expansion).

R1b-L51 was in northern Italy and southern France before it's expansion with Bell Beaker, then the two Indoeuropean waves clash and Bell Beaker invades Corded Ware territory.

I don't think only J2b2-L283 is Indoeuropean, the map of J2

 

[IronSide]

seems like you shoudln't take pca's too serious. yamna should be 50/50 and according to that graphic from kraus more like 45%EHG and 55% CHG. it doesn't look like this on your pca either.


though i do nnot trust the max planck institute that much. they wrote in one of their magazines last year that all neanderthals and all european hunter gatherers were dark skinned and that the first mutations for lighter skin were found in early european farrmers.
i think that is all wrong.

Why do you think that's wrong ? do you have evidence to support your claim ?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Why do you think that's wrong ? do you have evidence to support your claim ?

I haven't seen that magazine,
but EHG were light skinned too
and I guess Neanderthals also

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

@Papdimitiriou,
That's a very flimsy reason for not giving credence to this theory, imo. This is where the languages are attested much later in history, at a time when it was old enough to have differentiated.

There's absolutely nothing to say that the original proto-language wasn't further to the east.

As for IE or even proto-IE spreading with farmers, that's much too early for that language, and the original vocabulary is not "agricultural" in nature.

There are agricultural terms. See here some: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_vocabulary#Agriculture
And the groups which are labeled EEF or ANF etc weren't just farmers.

Concerning Late PIE, inverting Gimbutas' theory is my first option* (but an ultimate homeland can be further East or South-East, theoretically)

But placing the PIE homeland in regions where we later find non-IE languages probably related to North East Caucasian doesn't seem optimal to me. Though, I don't know what arguments he can use.

Also. I don't know with which culture he will try to associate PIE.

Edit:
*Early IE (from W/SW Anatolia to C. & N. Europe at least): ANF/EEF, Late PIE includes HG admixture (and they could have been elites or parts of the elites in some cases)

 

[Yetos]

Found the book
Fast shipping cost twice the prize and 4-6 days :innocent:
normal shipping cost 0 E and 28 days !!!!!
books swim very slow


plz do not read it before me :grin:

 

[Jovialis]

"Analyzing our data, he (Lazaridis) found that about ten thousand years ago there were at least four major populations in West Eurasia- the farmers of the Fertile Crescent, the farmers of Iran, the hunter-gatherers of central and western Europe, and the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe. All these populations differed from one another as much as Europeans differ from East Asians today. Scholars interested in trying to create ancestry-based racial classifications, had they lived ten thousand years ago, would have categorized these groups as "races," even though none of these groups survives in unmixed form today...The fusion of these highly different populations into today's West Eurasians is vividly evident in what might be considered the classic Northern European look: blue eyes, light skin, and blond hair. Analysis of ancient DNA data shows that western European hunter-gatherers around eight thousand years ago had blue eyes but dark skin and hair, a combination that is rare today. The first farmers of Europe mostly had light skin but dark hair and eyes- thus light skin in Europe largely owes its origin to migrating farmers. The earliest known example of the classic European blond hair mutation is in an Ancient North Eurasian from the Lake Baikal region of eastern Siberia from seventeen thousand years ago. The hundreds of millions of copies of this mutation in central and western Europe today likely derive from a massive migration into the region of people, an event that is in the next chapter" (Reich 2018)

 

[Angela]

"Analyzing our data, he (Lazaridis) found that about ten thousand years ago there were at least four major populations in West Eurasia- the farmers of the Fertile Crescent, the farmers of Iran, the hunter-gatherers of central and western Europe, and the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe. All these populations differed from one another as much as Europeans differ from East Asians today. Scholars interested in trying to create ancestry-based racial classifications, had they lived ten thousand years ago, would have categorized these groups as "races," even though none of these groups survives in unmixed form today...The fusion of these highly different populations into today's West Eurasians is vividly evident in what might be considered the classic Northern European look: blue eyes, light skin, and blond hair. Analysis of ancient DNA data shows that western European hunter-gatherers around eight thousand years ago had blue eyes but dark skin and hair, a combination that is rare today. The first farmers of Europe mostly had light skin but dark hair and eyes- thus light skin in Europe largely owes its origin to migrating farmers. The earliest known example of the classic European blond hair mutation is in an Ancient North Eurasian from the Lake Baikal region of eastern Siberia from seventeen thousand years ago. The hundreds of millions of copies of this mutation in central and western Europe today likely derive from a massive migration into the region of people, an event that is in the next chapter" (Reich 2018)

Amazing, isn't it? Blue eyes from the WHG, fair skin from the farmers and blonde hair from ANE. That's what happens from admixture, I guess.

You couldn't have convinced anyone ten years ago that people with this combo didn't spring fully formed from the head of Zeus like Athena. Well, I guess there are still die hards who want to believe it even today.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Amazing, isn't it? Blue eyes from the WHG, fair skin from the farmers and blonde hair from ANE. That's what happens from admixture, I guess.

You couldn't have convinced anyone ten years ago that people with this combo didn't spring fully formed from the head of Zeus like Athena. Well, I guess there are still die hards who want to believe it even today.

I'm still convinced it's not only admixture, but also natural selection plays a big role too.
Uptill now studies have failed to demonstrate that connection, maybe because knowledge of genes and combination of genes is still to limited today, but that should change soon, as DNA analysis becomes cheaper and more widespread.

 

[Angela]

I'm still convinced it's not only admixture, but also natural selection plays a big role too.
Uptill now studies have failed to demonstrate that connection, maybe because knowledge of genes and combination of genes is still to limited today, but that should change soon, as DNA analysis becomes cheaper and more widespread.

Yes, absolutely. I agree.

 

[Jovialis]

Amazing, isn't it? Blue eyes from the WHG, fair skin from the farmers and blonde hair from ANE. That's what happens from admixture, I guess.

You couldn't have convinced anyone ten years ago that people with this combo didn't spring fully formed from the head of Zeus like Athena. Well, I guess there are still die hards who want to believe it even today.

Yeah, you'd figure this would be elementary by now for people that come to forums like this. For example, the reaction to the cheddar man reconstruction.

 

[Ailchu]

Why do you think that's wrong ? do you have evidence to support your claim ?

i think its first mentioned in the study from haak who first looked at 2 such alleles. he found that they were missing in WHG. one of them was present in EEF. both of them were fixated in SHG.

now if those facts were correct i would have nothing against the magazin but they wrote incorrect and unclear info. and i think that politics are the only real reason why they did it. the writer may have thought that it would make no sense to talk about SHG or EHG because the most important thing is to show that WHG had darker skin and europeans got the alleles for light skin from farmers. the rest is not important and uninteressting. politics have nothing to look for here and it's just sad how scientist fear with every step they do what kind of signal they send. they basically become politicians themselves.

 

[Johane Derite]

Reich has tested 3748 samples, of which only ~700 have been published (as of nov12, 2017).

I think that this is an indication that he might know not just "some" things that aren't public yet, but LOTS.

 

[OkTex]

Judging from how people define themselves below their avatars on this forum, I'd say we should clearly distinguish between ethnicity and the consciousness of ethnicity. By the way, does ethnicity exist outside that consciousness of one's ethnicity ? In other words, ethnicity may be a social construct, but it is primarily a psychological, personal, intimate construct.

As a social construct, transient as you seem to consider it, it did not emerge out of the blue. Just like your autosomal makeup at a given time in a given place is the result of previous encounters and changes, ethnicity is the outcome of military events, social uprisings, cultural choices, etc... It doesn't exist apart from the others, in fact it does exist thanks to the others, who prioritized their options (slightly or significantly) differently. It is defined and conditioned by history, the history of men and the history of ideas. Our present is child to our past. As such, it is indeed not a "permanent essence", but it can be a reliable element of reference to build a behavior on.

Alongside that cultural/historical dimension of ethnicity, there is the idea each individual forms of his ethnicity - his own intimate feeling of who he is. That too may be subject to alteration and change over time. The question is: Can we violate that ? Can we judge ? Everyone is entitled to develop his own self-image, as long as it does not drive him to harm his fellow human brothers. Ethnicity is eminently subjective, and as such, disconnected from how much DNA (real or assumed) one got from a given group. It has to do with Myth, not with time and space. It is beyond control, that's why it sometimes turns dangerous, when self-criticism and self-restraint fail.

Can’t add to this... well-formulated thoughts that agree with my mindset!

 

[Angela]

An interesting question was raised on Razib Khan's blog about the coalescence of mtDna in relation to the place of the San in the tree of human splits.

"Something that confused me very early on in the book- the San are shown branching off from the rest of humanity prior to Mitochondrial Eve. How can Eve be a common ancestor in this case? Admixture?"

"Calibration on the coalescence of the last common ancestor of all mitochondrial DNA lineages for humans has changed several times, the last estimates are for a time to last common ancestor for all mtDNA lineages being around 100 to 200 thousand years ago. This is curious in light of the fact that both fossils and genomics are starting to suggest that anatomically modern humans emerged in their current form 200 to 400 thousand years ago.The shallower coalescence isn’t that surprising. Y and mtDNA both have lower effective population sizes and so higher turnover rates. These high turnover rates mean the extinction of other lineages. As most of you know, the extinction of these mtDNA lineages does not mean that the genetic material of other women alive at the same time as “mtDNA Eve” is not present in modern humans (though who knows what it means to say there’s distinctive genetic material left after all these generations with recombination). Eve was always simply a personification of the coalescence of the mtDNA genealogy. Both the Y and mtDNA phylogenies and coalescence were useful in their time. They pointed to the likely important role of Africa in the origin of modern humans, and the relatively recent time depth of our species. But their coalescence at a specific time was somewhat random around a certain expected value. This is why it was not surprising at all that “Y chromosomal Adam” and “mtDNA Eve” lived at different times (there is some evidence that the Y chromosome has had a lower long-term effective population size).
The above question is inspired by the fact that San Bushmen seem to diverge earlier in their total genome than in their mtDNA. There’s always been a distinction in the literature between demographic divergence between two populations, and the divergence of their genetic genealogies. Oftentimes daughter populations share genetic variation that dates back to before their separation. But sometimes, you have this situation where it seems that the starting point of genetic variation post-dates the divergence between population.
What’s the explanation? I think the simplest one is admixture and reciprocal gene flow, as implied by the commenter. In fact, Pontus Skoglund’s latest African ancient DNA paper implies that there was some sort of isolation-by-distance cline in the eastern part of the continent, from modern Ethiopia far to the south."

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018...nd-eve/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[bicicleur 2]

It seems to me that the San are the result of an admixture of a more recent population coming from the north maybe some 80 ka with Y-DNA A1b1 and an old 'ghost' population that was allready in Southern Africa 300 ka or earlier.

The same goes for the Aterians, descendants from the Irhoud skulls in the Atlas Mts. None of their DNA is known, but recently it has been suggested that Yoruba also contains some archaïc 'ghost' DNA.

 

[Angela]

It seems to me that the San are the result of an admixture of a more recent population coming from the north maybe some 80 ka with Y-DNA A1b1 and an old 'ghost' population that was allready in Southern Africa 300 ka or earlier.
The same goes for the Aterians, descendants from the Irhoud skulls in the Atlas Mts. None of their DNA is known, but recently it has been suggested that Yoruba also contains some archaïc 'ghost' DNA.

Razib also thinks they're the result of admixture:

"And, it may also turn out that the San Bushmen themselves are an admixture between two very different populations, one more like other eastern Africans, and one basal to this clade. If so, then it may be that their divergence estimate is a compound, and the most divergent mtDNA lineages come from the eastern African population that mixed with the more basal population."

 

[Sile]

Yes, the originally non-Indoeuropean speaking area was in the Eastern and Central-Northern Anatolia. That's why I believe Reich is wrong, although that region certainly played a role for Armenian and Indo-Iranian (at least Western Iranian) .Luwians were in the west and south.What Renfrew believes is irrelevant for me. I was never a fan.

Luwians where in the east of anatolia and eventually migrated west

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOd_hodh7Mc

They are non-semetic linguistic group ............hitties at the end converted to Luwian

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Luwians where in the east of anatolia and eventually migrated west

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOd_hodh7Mc

They are non-semetic linguistic group ............hitties at the end converted to Luwian

Sorry. Maybe I should have used the term Eastern Turkey.

If the term Anatolia is used for that region, a SE origin is possible.

The Hattian part was towards the NE and the Hurrian-related outside it.

(I didn't watch the video because, even though I like how she writes the presentation is boring.)

 

[bicicleur 2]

Razib also thinks they're the result of admixture:
"And, it may also turn out that the San Bushmen themselves are an admixture between two very different populations, one more like other eastern Africans, and one basal to this clade. If so, then it may be that their divergence estimate is a compound, and the most divergent mtDNA lineages come from the eastern African population that mixed with the more basal population."

A1b1 is the brother of BT, the Nubian Complex clade which arrived in Arabia at least 106 ka
so A1b1 would be a Nubian Complex clade that stayed in Africa, ancestral to the northeastern ancestor of the San (Nubian Complex was northeastern African in origin)
this culture may be the result of the San mixture :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stillbay
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howiesons_Poort
they were quite advanced at that time

I think the godfather of Nubian Complex is A0-T (TMRCA 161.3 ka)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/A0-T/
this clade includes all extant humans except the vey rare A00 clade

 

[FIREYWOTAN]

The fact that were able to ask those questions makes life a little more special if not significant. Finding out that others are and can be excited as a gift especially when so much of life has become a collection of tweets. The fact that the search brings us closer to a core truth is one of hose defining moments. Yet the greatest piece of the puzzle is sharing our insights. It never stops building a story that motivates me to dig deeper still. Thanks for sharing the magic of the search.