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Thread: Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past

    Here's a book by David Reich, coming out on March 27th.

    https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/b...y-david-reich/

    Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past David Reich Pantheon: 2018.

    As a field, ancient DNA is paradoxically young — just over 30 years old. And it is booming, thanks to ever-faster sequencing techniques and extraction protocols that can bait specific sections of human DNA out of the vast soup of non-human genetic material in ancient samples. Simultaneously, the field has grabbed the public imagination with findings about the distant past. One such finding was the revelation that people from the Beaker Culture significantly altered Britain’s population just 4,500 years ago. Another was the oldest ancient genome ever obtained: that of a 700,000-year-old horse, found in Canadian permafrost, that suggested the ancestor of all today’s horses, donkeys and zebras lived some 4 million years ago. I was thrown headlong into the intricacies and difficulties of the field by leading the DNA analysis of the remains of England’s King Richard III, discovered under a car park in Leicester in 2012.


    Few labs do ancient-DNA work. David Reich’s, set up in 2013 at Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, was the first in the United States and is one of the most prestigious in the world. It is a juggernaut able to process hundreds of samples a year. Now, with Who We Are and How We Got Here, Reich gives us a window into what ancient DNA can tell us about human evolution, the peopling of the world, continent by continent, and the population mixing that makes us who we are today, genetically at least.


    Reich’s team has developed some of the most sophisticated statistical and bioinformatics techniques available. Using computers, they painstakingly reconstruct genomic information from fragments of DNA from ancient individuals. They then drill down in search of a new understanding of human history.


    It was Reich’s lab that did the Beaker work of the headlines. Indeed, the group has been involved in many of the big findings in the field over the past decade, and it’s these that Reich discusses. For example, their work contributed to the startling discovery that Neanderthals interbred with the ancestors of all modern humans descended from Europeans, Asians and other non-Africans.


    His group’s involvement in the genetic analysis of the hominins called Denisovans overturned previous findings based on mitochondrial DNA alone. The work showed that Denisovans and Neanderthals were more closely related to each other than to modern humans. The ancestral groups leading to modern humans separated from the population leading to both Denisovans and Neanderthals 770,000–550,000 years ago, pre-dating by some 100,000–400,000 years the split that led to Neanderthals and Denisovans. And it turned out that ancient Denisovan populations and the ancestors of modern New Guineans had interbred as recently as 54,000–44,000 years ago.


    Reich also discusses ghosts in our past. Not all of the genetic make-up of ancient and modern humans can be explained by the current archaeological or historical record. Genetic analysis of ancient and modern populations predicts as-yet-undiscovered groups that must have contributed their DNA to future generations. For example, Reich’s lab found that Europeans were more closely related to Native Americans than to East Asians, and this couldn’t be explained by recent interbreeding. The researchers suggested that another, now-extinct, group of people must have existed more than 15,000 years ago, and contributed DNA both to the populations that led to modern Europeans and to those that led to modern Native Americans. The team named these people Ancient North Eurasians.


    No physical proof of this ghost population existed. Then, another group, led by Eske Willerslev, published genome-wide data from a recent find. They fit. The remains of a boy from Mal’ta in Siberia, dated to about 24,000 years ago, became the type specimen for the Ancient North Eurasians: a ghost made, if not flesh, then at least bone (M. Raghavan et al. Nature 505, 87–91; 2014). Other ghost populations have been predicted. As each new type specimen is discovered, more pieces of the puzzle slot into place, and researchers can reach even further back in time.


    Reich details many other studies: of the phenomenal spread of the Yamnaya from central Europe to Asia’s Altai Mountains some 5,000 years ago; of the Andaman Islanders and the populations of India; of ancient remains in North America, such as the 8,500-year-old Kennewick Man.


    What his and other labs are uncovering is the tremendous degree to which populations globally are blended, repeatedly, over generations. Gone is the family tree spreading from Africa over the world, with each branch and twig representing a new population that never touches others. What has been revealed is something much more complex and exciting: populations that split and re-form, change under selective pressures, move, exchange ideas, overthrow one another. Genomics and statistics have drawn back the curtain on the sort of sex and power struggles you’d expect in Game of Thrones.


    Reich also reflects on how his work can be misinterpreted by the public and those outside the field, in a heartfelt section that I can sympathize with. As soon as some genetic discoveries are published, they can become freighted with prejudices and polarized interpretations. We all belong to one species and we are all related. Yet when genetic differences between populations, for instance, are revealed, the media and interest groups can oversimplify and distort. Some pick and choose results to justify personal, and sadly often political or racist, beliefs. Others sweep the differences under the carpet. Yet, as Reich argues, we do need a non-loaded way to talk about genetic diversity and similarities in populations. This book goes some way to starting that conversation.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-02964-5

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    Here's an interview with David Reich about the upcoming book.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...istory/554798/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's an interview with David Reich about the upcoming book.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...istory/554798/
    Again, thanks very much, Jovialis. :)

    These were the things that struck me:

    l. "Reich: In our hands, a successful sample costs less than $200. That’s only two or three times more than processing them on a present-day person. And maybe about one-third to one half of the samples we screen are successful at this point."

    The price coming down astronomically is a huge boon. Also, people should stop complaining that the coverage isn't good enough or why don't they have X. It's hard to do, although hopefully the technology will improve more and more.

    2. "After that, you see for the first time people related to later Europeanhunter-gatherers who have contributed a little bit to present-day Europeans.That happens beginning 35,000 to 37,000 years ago. Then the ice sheets descendacross northern Europe and a lot of these populations are chased into theserefuges in the southern peninsulas of Europe. After the Ice Age, there’s arepeopling of northern Europe from the southwest, probably from Spain, and thenalso from the southeast, probably from Greece and maybe even from Anatolia,Turkey."

    They're still holding out that the WHG might have entered Europe from Anatolia.

    3. About the "Aryan" controversy: Reich- "We responded to this by adding a lot of content to our papers to discuss these issues and contextualize them. Our results are actually almost diametrically opposite from what Kossina thought because these Corded Ware people come from the East, a place that Kossina would have despised as a source for them. But nevertheless it is true that there’s big population movements, and so I think what the DNA is doing is it’s forcing the hand of this discussion in archaeology, showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur. They are sometimes sharp and dramatic, and they involve large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time. We now can see that for the first time."

    4."When you see these replacements of Neanderthals by modern humansor Europeans and Africans substantially replacing Native Americans in the last500 years or the people who built Stonehenge, who were obviouslyextraordinarily sophisticated, being replaced from these people from thecontinent, it doesn’t say something about the innate potential of these people.But it rather says something about the different immune systems or culturalmismatch.
    Zhang: On the point of immune systems, one of thehypotheses for why people from the steppe were so successful in spreadingthrough Europe is that they brought the bubonic plague with them. Since theplague is endemic to Central Asia, they may have built up immunity but theEuropean farmers they encountered had not.
    Reich: Absolutely. The contact between people from Europe and Africa and the New World was a profound Earth-shattering event for our species, of course, in the last 500 years. But there have been profound and Earth-shattering events, again and again, every few thousand years in our history and that’s what ancient DNA is telling us."

    So, no, no "Aryan" superior beings with their, what was it, blonde, flowing locks? :)

    5. On the dangers of extremism in population genetics:
    "Reich: I think so. I know there are extremists who are interested in genealogy and genetics. But I think those are very marginal people, and there’s, of course, a concern they may impinge on the mainstream.
    But if you actually take any serious look at this data, it just confounds every stereotype. It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. "

    This is the only area where I'm in disagreement with him. I don't think he sufficiently appreciates the danger. For instance, I don't believe, living in academia the way he does he knows how many of these people there are, nor does he know the history and background of the people in this field. In addition, think what people in the future, armed with these kinds of tests, could do to root out anyone they think is "subhuman".


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Again, thanks very much, Jovialis. :)

    These were the things that struck me:

    l. "Reich: In our hands, a successful sample costs less than $200. That’s only two or three times more than processing them on a present-day person. And maybe about one-third to one half of the samples we screen are successful at this point."

    The price coming down astronomically is a huge boon. Also, people should stop complaining that the coverage isn't good enough or why don't they have X. It's hard to do, although hopefully the technology will improve more and more.

    2. "After that, you see for the first time people related to later Europeanhunter-gatherers who have contributed a little bit to present-day Europeans.That happens beginning 35,000 to 37,000 years ago. Then the ice sheets descendacross northern Europe and a lot of these populations are chased into theserefuges in the southern peninsulas of Europe. After the Ice Age, there’s arepeopling of northern Europe from the southwest, probably from Spain, and thenalso from the southeast, probably from Greece and maybe even from Anatolia,Turkey."

    They're still holding out that the WHG might have entered Europe from Anatolia.

    3. About the "Aryan" controversy: Reich- "We responded to this by adding a lot of content to our papers to discuss these issues and contextualize them. Our results are actually almost diametrically opposite from what Kossina thought because these Corded Ware people come from the East, a place that Kossina would have despised as a source for them. But nevertheless it is true that there’s big population movements, and so I think what the DNA is doing is it’s forcing the hand of this discussion in archaeology, showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur. They are sometimes sharp and dramatic, and they involve large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time. We now can see that for the first time."

    4."When you see these replacements of Neanderthals by modern humansor Europeans and Africans substantially replacing Native Americans in the last500 years or the people who built Stonehenge, who were obviouslyextraordinarily sophisticated, being replaced from these people from thecontinent, it doesn’t say something about the innate potential of these people.But it rather says something about the different immune systems or culturalmismatch.
    Zhang: On the point of immune systems, one of thehypotheses for why people from the steppe were so successful in spreadingthrough Europe is that they brought the bubonic plague with them. Since theplague is endemic to Central Asia, they may have built up immunity but theEuropean farmers they encountered had not.
    Reich: Absolutely. The contact between people from Europe and Africa and the New World was a profound Earth-shattering event for our species, of course, in the last 500 years. But there have been profound and Earth-shattering events, again and again, every few thousand years in our history and that’s what ancient DNA is telling us."

    So, no, no "Aryan" superior beings with their, what was it, blonde, flowing locks? :)

    5. On the dangers of extremism in population genetics:
    "Reich: I think so. I know there are extremists who are interested in genealogy and genetics. But I think those are very marginal people, and there’s, of course, a concern they may impinge on the mainstream.
    But if you actually take any serious look at this data, it just confounds every stereotype. It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. "

    This is the only area where I'm in disagreement with him. I don't think he sufficiently appreciates the danger. For instance, I don't believe, living in academia the way he does he knows how many of these people there are, nor does he know the history and background of the people in this field. In addition, think what people in the future, armed with these kinds of tests, could do to root out anyone they think is "subhuman".
    You're welcome :) I'm really looking forward to this book. I placed an order for it.

    The interview was very interesting, I'm surprised that it's so cost-effective. $200 is a lot lower than I expected. It will also get even cheaper, so that means these papers will come out at an even faster rate in the future.

    I do share your sentiments that preventing racists from abusing the science is imperative. It is easy for people to manipulate uninformed individuals by misrepresenting the facts and attaching an extremest ideology to it. Especially when so much of it has to do with group identity, and history. Moreover, people in well established positions of power could also be influenced by this as well, or use it as a tool to manipulate their constituency. Which is an even graver danger.

    Another thing is that because of these racists, it would turn off a lot of normal people; if the racist-interpretations were to be impinged on the mainstream. In the end it would hurt the field of genetics. Which is why it is important that professionals in the field make sure their work is interpreted properly.

    Indeed, as Reich said the Bubonicplague had done most of the damage in terms of population replacement in Europe. Disease has been a critical variable in many events throughout history. I think it makes a lot of sense considering the large scale replacement, and not some false triumphalist assumption of racial superiority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You're welcome :) I'm really looking forward to this book. I placed an order for it.

    The interview was very interesting, I'm surprised that it's so cost-effective. $200 is a lot lower than I expected. It will also get even cheaper, so that means these papers will come out at an even faster rate in the future.

    I do share your sentiments that preventing racists from abusing the science is imperative. It is easy for people to manipulate uninformed individuals by misrepresenting the facts and attaching an extremest ideology to it. Especially when so much of it has to do with group identity, and history. Moreover, people in well established positions of power could also be influenced by this as well, or use it as a tool to manipulate their constituency. Which is an even graver danger.

    Another thing is that because of these racists, it would turn off a lot of normal people; if the racist-interpretations were to be impinged on the mainstream. In the end it would hurt the field of genetics. Which is why it is important that professionals in the field make sure their work is interpreted properly.

    Indeed, as Reich said the Bubonicplague had done most of the damage in terms of population replacement in Europe. Disease has been a critical variable in many events throughout history. I think it makes a lot of sense considering the large scale replacement, and not some false triumphalist assumption of racial superiority.
    Looking forward to reading the book. One question I have about the Indo European invasions is were a lot of the mtdna haplogroups replaced too? That would be a good argument for disease being a large factor.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    This is the only area where I'm in disagreement with him. I don't think he sufficiently appreciates the danger. For instance, I don't believe, living in academia the way he does he knows how many of these people there are, nor does he know the history and background of the people in this field. In addition, think what people in the future, armed with these kinds of tests, could do to root out anyone they think is "subhuman". [/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]
    I think the danger coming from religion is much bigger.
    Racists are marginal and everybody has been warned for them, especially Reich and others working on genetics.
    There are much more people that can be indocrtinated by religion.

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    ^^
    However, there's also a lot of racist groups that combine both religious, and racial elements; nevertheless are primarily motivated by racism. Such as the Ku Klux Klan, or the Nation of Islam. The Nazis too were motivated partly by occultism, and used science to try to justify their racial-mysticism. For extremists that aren't religious; science fills that void. Thus these groups treat their racial-identity like a religion.

    So-called "christian identity" movements are another example of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity
    Last edited by Jovialis; 17-03-18 at 07:39.

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    A little off topic, but its something that came to mind that I'm itching to get off my chest:

    What determines how Northern or Southern you are is just a matter of how close you are to European hunter gatherers and Steppe vs agriculturalists! The question I have in my mind to racists who are aware of this fact is what's so horrible about having more agriculturalist ancestry (btw I'm not downplaying the hunter gatherer or Steppe ancestries, else I'm no better than the Nordicists themselves.)? Agriculture is a major breakthrough! I have no good reason to be ashamed for being mostly related to them (and nobody should be ashamed for having any kind of ancestry).
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    A little off topic, but its something that came to mind that I'm itching to get off my chest:

    What determines how Northern or Southern you are is just a matter of how close you are to European hunter gatherers and Steppe vs agriculturalists! The question I have in my mind to racists who are aware of this fact is what's so horrible about having more agriculturalist ancestry (btw I'm not downplaying the hunter gatherer or Steppe ancestries, else I'm no better than the Nordicists themselves.)? Agriculture is a major breakthrough! I have no good reason to be ashamed for being mostly related to them (and nobody should be ashamed for having any kind of ancestry).
    There's nothing wrong with either, but because these groups are not learning through the scientific method, they think there is. This is related to a discussion I recently had with a colleague so I'll tell you what I told him.

    The problem with any fundamentalist groups is that they believe in one "truth" and they can't diverge from that. For religious fundamentalists it's a book or certain teachings, for many extreme leftists it's the fact that we are all born the same, for racists it's the fact that we are born different and their kind is superior to the rest.

    All these groups have already determined the end of their "scientific research" and are now only looking to fill the equation with data. The problem is, if the data contradicts their ultimate belief, because this belief is indisputable, they conclude the data is wrong, and so they search for other data that fits their narrative. This is neither science nor truth.

    Now, back to racists. Their ultimate belief is that they are superior to others. This means, whatever their ancestry is, that one will be hailed as the source of all intelligence, creativity, maybe even physical prowess. So, to answer your question, there is nothing wrong with agriculturalists or hunter-gatherers, other than one of them contributed more to the ancestry of some racists groups, especially from North and Central Europe.

    If these groups had more J, E & G ancestry I am certain they would claim these are the source of all superior traits. As an example, look at how racists related to Neanderthals. Until recently Neanderthals were considered, at best, an intermediate form in the evolution of humans towards "pure aryans". However, as soon as it was proven that all non-Africans share some Neanderthal DNA, a whole bunch of racist theories exploded, claiming to finally have identified the source of what they think is European superiority relative to Africans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^
    However, there's also a lot of racist groups that combine both religious, and racial elements; nevertheless are primarily motivated by racism. Such as the Ku Klux Klan, or the Nation of Islam. The Nazis too were motivated partly by occultism, and used science to try to justify their racial-mysticism. For extremists that aren't religious; science fills that void. Thus these groups treat their racial-identity like a religion.

    So-called "christian identity" movements are another example of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity
    I would go even beyond race or religion.
    Look at the horrible crimes commited by communist regimes, an ideology that has nothing to do with either race or religion.
    These crimes seem to be the most forgotten crimes in recent history, maybe because these regimes were very secretive about what happened on their territories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I would go even beyond race or religion.
    Look at the horrible crimes commited by communist regimes, an ideology that has nothing to do with either race or religion.
    These crimes seem to be the most forgotten crimes in recent history, maybe because these regimes were very secretive about what happened on their territories.
    Communism is inherently a violent system, because it creates enemies out of sectors of society that are perceived to stand in the way of their goals. Marxists are radicals that believe in direct-action as a means to their end. Moreover, they prophetically believe that an inevitable violent takeover by the workers over the capitalists would happen. Communism, and Marxism are basically like religions, because they dogmatically place their social and economic tenets at the center of everything. Above the rights of the individual; they want to eradicate the individual. Politics is another example of what extremist-minded people that don't believe in religion can use to fill that void. Perhaps the same zealotry that is exhibited by religious extremists, is transferred to politics, or racist-science for non-religious people. I think that extremism of all kinds that can potentially influence others to commit atrocities needs to be stopped dead in its tracks. Which is why it is imperative that people understand the true, and objective interpretations of genetics in relation to ancient DNA. Otherwise, if left to fester, extremist will use it for ethno-nationalistic propaganda. Many of these extremist groups had small beginnings.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Great insights, as always, from our members. It's extremism, in all its forms, that is the problem.

    Not to be pedantic, but "farmers" weren't born farmers. They descend from hunter-gatherers too, hunter-gatherers who happened to "discover" agriculture.

    I think this all goes back to the 19th century. Northern Europeans, who industrialized first, looked at themselves and at Southern Europeans, who were on average "darker", and attributed all sorts of, as Jovialis said, "mystical" and "value laden" attributes to it. With the beginnings of genetics, they also believed that these traits were the "original European" traits, which made them the "real" Europeans, and everyone else interlopers.

    That's what was so ironic about the discovery that the WHG were darker than the agriculturalists who started entering Europe.

    Then the identification turned to the steppe people, only to discover that the EHG, who did seem "lighter", had admixed with Basal Eurasian heavy Caucasus type people, and that most of their early "achievements" were borrowed from surrounding "farmer" type cultures. (Only shows their good sense and adaptability to me, but there you have it.)

    It doesn't matter, though. If people want to blind themselves to the facts, they will.

    Believe me, I'm sure all this racist nonsense still goes on among the racists in the pop gen community. It's just that given that they know many people have kept screenshots of their statements in the past, and are reading their material now, they have to communicate "honestly", if you can call it that, on the dark web.

    This is why I think that the racial superiority movement is much bigger in Europe than people realize. Look at the statements coming out of Eastern Europe with absolutely no adverse consequences. Can you imagine what is said on the dark net or behind closed doors? All they've gotten out of all this genetics research is that the Germans were wrong to target them for annihilation. It's they, the Slavs, who are the real "Untermenschen". If it weren't so pathetic and frightening at the same time it would be funny.

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    It would be interesting a commitment of the scientific community in these new sciences or almost sciences in which 2 + 2 sometimes are not 4, not to be carried away by political agendas and to separate clearly the attempt to buy the scientific truth of the manipulative attempt of the true that we agree to our agenda.


    The truth as always is worth it and the truth will set us free.


    And as an amateur, I hope for this new science.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    A little off topic, but its something that came to mind that I'm itching to get off my chest:

    What determines how Northern or Southern you are is just a matter of how close you are to European hunter gatherers and Steppe vs agriculturalists! The question I have in my mind to racists who are aware of this fact is what's so horrible about having more agriculturalist ancestry (btw I'm not downplaying the hunter gatherer or Steppe ancestries, else I'm no better than the Nordicists themselves.)? Agriculture is a major breakthrough! I have no good reason to be ashamed for being mostly related to them (and nobody should be ashamed for having any kind of ancestry).
    yes. but what if this additional WHG EHG admixture in northern europe might actually give these people an advantage to survive in northern europe. i see italians (me included) with body structures that i only rarely see among germans and vice versa. in the middle east it gets probably even more extreme after looking at people from there. i met german women who had to bend their necks to look down at me and they often also have broader shoulders than me. now this doesn't happen all the time but it happens way more often than it did in switzerland and especially with other italians. call me a nordicist but i think in that regard they or at least some of them really might be superior in some way. and i actually think its somehow sad that this is going to be gone like for example native americans. but its a question of perspective. and thats the thing. i just think that you can't fight racism with science since race categories and the value of differences are often just a question of perspective even in science.
    racism will never be gone. even if our populations will be so mixed that there is no difference between them anymore. even then people will have ideals. and the fact that certain genes are superior to others, though often because of perspective, personal preference or also depending on the environment in which they need to survive, will never be gone, its nature, and this might play a huge role in future genetic medicine for example with things like crispr cas. "racism" might shift from a population level to an individual level.

    i don't know. i don't think i'm a racist but i'm an opponent of globalization. it's like in physics. everything will go to greatest possible disorder once you let it happen. and imo that's a loss.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    What the heck are you talking about? The average height of Italian men is what, 5 foot 8 to 5 foot 9? What's the average height of German women, 5' 7"?

    Unless you're way below average in height, not many German women are going to have to bend their necks to talk to you. You sound like a t-roll to me, and not an Italian one. Don't you people ever get tired of playing these games? It's a Saturday night for goodness' sakes. Shouldn't you be out chasing girls or something?

    The only advantage in terms of size in the modern world is the size of your IQ or other talents. Well, maybe one other one, but from what I hear I think Italian men do more than just fine in that category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What the heck are you talking about? The average height of Italian men is what, 5 foot 8 to 5 foot 9? What's the average height of German women, 5' 7"?

    Unless you're way below average in height, not many German women are going to have to bend their necks to talk to you. You sound like a t-roll to me, and not an Italian one. Don't you people ever get tired of playing these games? It's a Saturday night for goodness' sakes. Shouldn't you be out chasing girls or something?

    The only advantage in terms of size in the modern world is the size of your IQ or other talents. Well, maybe one other one, but from what I hear I think Italian men do more than just fine in that category.
    *off-topic*
    Well putting on the point about IQ in Italy the average score is 102 and my IQ is 98, so yeah there IQ is great but that's only a fraction on a person intelligence in my opinion.
    *on-topic*
    I have seen only 2 German women in my life who are taller or the same height as me and im 5'11 so no German women are not tall but average.

    I agree with what Jovialis said about Communism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What the heck are you talking about? The average height of Italian men is what, 5 foot 8 to 5 foot 9? What's the average height of German women, 5' 7"?

    Unless you're way below average in height, not many German women are going to have to bend their necks to talk to you. You sound like a t-roll to me, and not an Italian one. Don't you people ever get tired of playing these games? It's a Saturday night for goodness' sakes. Shouldn't you be out chasing girls or something?

    The only advantage in terms of size in the modern world is the size of your IQ or other talents. Well, maybe one other one, but from what I hear I think Italian men do more than just fine in that category.
    i'm not italian. i'm swiss/italian and yes i already met such women, they did not necessarily had to bend their neck to be honest, but i never met someone comparable from italy. i'm 1.75 and thats italian average. and its not only the height. its the overall body structure that seems to be different on average. maybe its because the majority of italians here come from southern italy i don't know.
    i didn't say all are like this. bit it happens. it increases in northern, north-eastern germany.
    and it probably decreasesthe further south you go and then further into the middle east, north africa.

    "The only advantage in terms of size in the modern world is the size of your IQ or other talents."
    as already said its a question of perspective. and i doubt that there are many people who only look at iq's.

    "Well, maybe one other one, but from what I hear I think Italian men do more than just fine in that category"
    from what you hear? interessting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i'm not italian. i'm swiss/italian and yes i already met such women, they did not necessarily had to bend their neck to be honest, but i never met someone comparable from italy. i'm 1.75 and thats italian average. and its not only the height. its the overall body structure that seems to be different on average. maybe its because the majority of italians here come from southern italy i don't know.
    i didn't say all are like this. bit it happens. it increases in northern, north-eastern germany.
    and it probably decreasesthe further south you go and then further into the middle east, north africa.

    "The only advantage in terms of size in the modern world is the size of your IQ or other talents."
    as already said its a question of perspective. and i doubt that there are many people who only look at iq's.

    "Well, maybe one other one, but from what I hear I think Italian men do more than just fine in that category"
    from what you hear? interessting.
    Too bad you never met my 5'11 inch paternal grandmother, then (180.3 cm.). In the interests of full transparency, however, they used to recruit for the King of Italy's personal bodyguard there. :)

    Gigi Buffon's mother comes from my mother's area, and also is a strapping and big boned woman.



    With all due respect, I've always been thankful I inherited my mother's more Mediterranean height and build.

    It's best not to think so stereotypically. My first cousin married a Swiss German who is about 5'8", slight boned, and has darker hair and eyes than I do. My husband, southern Italian, on the other hand, is over 6' tall, and played American college football, a sport for which you need to pack a lot of muscle. Think Joe Manganiello or the Riace bronzes. :)

    You might also want to look at my thread on the people of the Appennino Parmense.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...nnino-Parmense

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm southern Italian, and I'm 6'2" with a mesomorphic frame. My uncle is even taller at 6'4". There's a lot of people on my mom's side who are tall.

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    Southern Italians are about 5'9 on average, they're not hobbits. :)

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    I’m 5’10” - from the South of Italy -
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    yes. but what if this additional WHG EHG admixture in northern europe might actually give these people an advantage to survive in northern europe. i see italians (me included) with body structures that i only rarely see among germans and vice versa. in the middle east it gets probably even more extreme after looking at people from there. i met german women who had to bend their necks to look down at me and they often also have broader shoulders than me. now this doesn't happen all the time but it happens way more often than it did in switzerland and especially with other italians. call me a nordicist but i think in that regard they or at least some of them really might be superior in some way. and i actually think its somehow sad that this is going to be gone like for example native americans. but its a question of perspective. and thats the thing. i just think that you can't fight racism with science since race categories and the value of differences are often just a question of perspective even in science.
    racism will never be gone. even if our populations will be so mixed that there is no difference between them anymore. even then people will have ideals. and the fact that certain genes are superior to others, though often because of perspective, personal preference or also depending on the environment in which they need to survive, will never be gone, its nature, and this might play a huge role in future genetic medicine for example with things like crispr cas. "racism" might shift from a population level to an individual level.

    i don't know. i don't think i'm a racist but i'm an opponent of globalization. it's like in physics. everything will go to greatest possible disorder once you let it happen. and imo that's a loss.
    Sorry but this does not make sense Ailchu.

    First, because Germans are not the tallest in the world right now, the tallest men are in the Dinaric mountains.

    Second, you are talking as if the height difference has always been like this but it hasn't. The Dutch were among the shortest Europeans in the 19th century, but are now first if you discount Dinarics for not being a country.

    Third, look the WHG ancestry map: https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con..._admixture.png. Now look at the height map: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/1b...f271785d6b.jpg. Not exactly the same thing.

    Also, I agree with Angela: intelligence matters most today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Great insights, as always, from our members. It's extremism, in all its forms, that is the problem.
    Not to be pedantic, but "farmers" weren't born farmers. They descend from hunter-gatherers too, hunter-gatherers who happened to "discover" agriculture.
    I think this all goes back to the 19th century. Northern Europeans, who industrialized first, looked at themselves and at Southern Europeans, who were on average "darker", and attributed all sorts of, as Jovialis said, "mystical" and "value laden" attributes to it. With the beginnings of genetics, they also believed that these traits were the "original European" traits, which made them the "real" Europeans, and everyone else interlopers.
    That's what was so ironic about the discovery that the WHG were darker than the agriculturalists who started entering Europe.
    Then the identification turned to the steppe people, only to discover that the EHG, who did seem "lighter", had admixed with Basal Eurasian heavy Caucasus type people, and that most of their early "achievements" were borrowed from surrounding "farmer" type cultures. (Only shows their good sense and adaptability to me, but there you have it.)
    It doesn't matter, though. If people want to blind themselves to the facts, they will.
    Believe me, I'm sure all this racist nonsense still goes on among the racists in the pop gen community. It's just that given that they know many people have kept screenshots of their statements in the past, and are reading their material now, they have to communicate "honestly", if you can call it that, on the dark web.
    This is why I think that the racial superiority movement is much bigger in Europe than people realize. Look at the statements coming out of Eastern Europe with absolutely no adverse consequences. Can you imagine what is said on the dark net or behind closed doors? All they've gotten out of all this genetics research is that the Germans were wrong to target them for annihilation. It's they, the Slavs, who are the real "Untermenschen". If it weren't so pathetic and frightening at the same time it would be funny.
    the days of the industrial revolution and European colonisation are long gone, and yes there are still some remnants of racism
    I don't think there are many Europeans who worry about WHG being black or dark skinned, you have to go to the specialised fora to find them
    but blaming Europeans for whatever went wrong in history and blaming everyone who opposes open EU borders or criticises multiculturalism to be a racist is not going to help, on the contrary, it will give those few true racists left a second breath

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Sorry but this does not make sense Ailchu.

    First, because Germans are not the tallest in the world right now, the tallest men are in the Dinaric mountains.

    Second, you are talking as if the height difference has always been like this but it hasn't. The Dutch were among the shortest Europeans in the 19th century, but are now first if you discount Dinarics for not being a country.

    Third, look the WHG ancestry map: https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con..._admixture.png. Now look at the height map: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/1b...f271785d6b.jpg. Not exactly the same thing.

    Also, I agree with Angela: intelligence matters most today.

    The English, as another example, managed to create an empire that covered a good part of the globe without being particularly tall.

    I can't think of much that is sillier, particularly in this day and age, than basing some sort of superiority on height.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The English, as another example, managed to create an empire that covered a good part of the globe without being particularly tall.
    I can't think of much that is sillier, particularly in this day and age, than basing some sort of superiority on height.


    released 1977



    today it's cool to be a gangsta, but such lyrics would be seen as offensive by 'correct' people

    "Short People" is a song by Randy Newman from his 1977 album, Little Criminals. The verses and chorus are lyrically constructed as a prejudiced attack on short people. In contrast, the bridge states that "short people are just the same as you and I." Newman interprets the song to be about "prejudice" as was widely thought, but added that it was "about a lunatic." As with many of his songs such as "Rednecks", Newman wrote the song from the point of view of a biased narrator. Like Dire Straits' 1985 hit single, "Money for Nothing", which used the same lyrical technique, the song was misunderstood by many listeners who wrongly assumed that it reflected Newman's personal viewpoint.

    these 'correct' peole already showed up in 1978

    In 1978, state of Maryland delegate Isaiah Dixon attempted to introduce legislation making it illegal to play "Short People" on the radio. He was advised by Assistant Attorney General Francis B. Burch that such a law would be a violation of the First Amendment.[6]

    Newman would later grow to dislike the song and its success, eventually calling it a "bad break", a "novelty record like The Chipmunks", and said it caused him to receive several threats regarding its misinterpreted message.[2] He said, "I had no idea that there was any sensitivity, I mean, that anyone could believe that anyone was as crazy as that character. To have that kind of animus against short people, and then to sing it and put it all in song and have a philosophy on it."[3] However, it ended up being included on almost every one of his greatest hits albums.[4][not in citation given]

    It's only grown worse since 1978. The 'correct' people came to own the media and politics.

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