Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past

hrvclv said:
I know... just part of the dialectics !
Click to expand...

I should elaborate. Some people are indeed here for learning more about their identity, or just genetics in general. But t-rolls only seek to cause disruption to satisfy some pathetically sadistic urge. It's probably some way for them to feel empowered, since they're probably cowards, weaklings, and social rejects in their everyday life. This is obvious since they spend prime hours of the weekend, making fake-accounts, just to cause havoc on this forum. They seriously have to be complete losers imo.

I think its ironic that these racist t-rolls who think they're superior, exhibit social traits that indicate they will most likely not pass on their genetics. Since they have a low-chance of procreating.
 
Jovialis said:
I should elaborate. Some people are indeed here for learning more about their identity, or just genetics in general. But t-rolls only seek to cause disruption to satisfy some pathetically sadistic urge. It's probably some way for them to feel empowered, since they're probably cowards, weaklings, and social rejects in their everyday life. This is obvious since they spend prime hours of the weekend, making fake-accounts, just to cause havoc on this forum. They seriously have to be complete losers imo.
Click to expand...


Don't worry. I knew exactly what you meant. I naively got caught in a few of their traps these last days. I share your opinion of them - needless to say.
 
hrvclv said:
Don't worry. I knew exactly what you meant. I naively got caught in a few of their traps these last days. I share your opinion of them - needless to say.
Click to expand...

I know :), and to echo what you had said, for the people who are serious about genetics, this is an excerpt from what David Reich said in the interview:

"But if you actually take any serious look at this data, it just confounds every stereotype. It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history."


Nevertheless, with that last bit after the part I bolded, when it comes to immigration, I think the constituency within a nation-state have the right to regulate who they let into their country. They also have a right to preserve their culture as they see fit.
 
Jovialis said:
I know :), and to echo what you had said, for the people who are serious about genetics, this is an excerpt from what David Reich said in the interview:
[FONT=&]"But if you actually take any serious look at this data, it just confounds every stereotype. It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history."
[/FONT][FONT=&]Nevertheless, with that last bit after the part I bolded, when it comes to immigration, I think the constituency within a nation-state have the right to regulate who they let into their country. They also have a right to preserve their culture as they see fit. [/FONT]
Click to expand...
it's not race that is the problem
it's different cultures, convictions, beliefs and prejudices that are the problem
many people have proven unable to adapt themselves in another than their native society
multiculturalism has failed because of that, not because of different skin or hair colours
 
bicicleur said:
it's not race that is the problem
it's different cultures, convictions, beliefs and prejudices that are the problem
many people have proven unable to adapt themselves in another than their native society
multiculturalism has failed because of that, not because of different skin or hair colours
Click to expand...

Yet, Bicicleur, call it what you will, but people do judge who "belongs" and who doesn't in their society based on things like phenotype. Distrust and even hatred of "the other" is part of the human make-up whether we like it or not. It has always been a factor. The failure of "multiculturalism" in Europe is not just because new immigrants refuse to adapt themselves to native culture. It is also because the natives don't want to integrate them. They are too "foreign".

Look at the difference between the attitude toward immigrants in Europe and in the U.S. In the U.S., if you show the slightest willingness to adapt you're accepted by most people almost immediately. You don't have to give up your headscarf or turban or eat pork or whatever, although it certainly helps. In Europe, I have two first cousins who were born in Switzerland, and they're still not considered "Swiss", and one of them is married to a Swiss German, speaks German better than Italian, and on and on.

Even in countries like the U.S. that are built on immigration, the path to acceptance was easier the closer the incoming group was to the "natives". The Germans had an easier time than the Irish, who had an easier time than Jews and Italians, etc., and believe me, Italians of those generations were desperate to become "American".
 
Angela, and what about how Americans treat real Americans? (meaning native people of America?)
 
Dagne said:
Angela, and what about how Americans treat real Americans? (meaning native people of America?)
Click to expand...

Do you mean is there prejudice toward them? Yes, there is in certain areas where there are reservations. I'm sorry to say it but a lot of that is because of the high rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, child and spousal abuse, that they're on welfare etc.

Now, much of that behavior is because Europeans who came to the continent took their land and in many cases tried to take their culture as well, so it's short sighted to blame them entirely, but most people don't think too deeply about these kinds of things and just react to what they see.

This has been the fate of aboriginal, hunter-gatherer peoples all over the world, whether we're talking about Australia or Africa or Finland and Scandinavia. It's a tragedy: they just find it incredibly difficult to adjust to modern life.

There's another part of the story with regard to Amerindians, however. At the same time that some people are prejudiced toward them, others in a sense romanticize them and very much want a connection to them. Lots of Americans have stories of an Amerindian ancestor, and they desperately want it to be true. That's what has driven a lot of interest in genetic testing. There are indeed some "colonial" Americans who have a small bit of it, but fewer than thought they had it. For a good number of people, either it doesn't exist, or it was actually a part SSA ancestor who was trying to pass.

Also, as I said upthread, human beings distrust and exclude people on a scale based on similarity to themselves. Americans are still human beings. Although SSA admixed people have been here a lot longer than Poles, let's say, they're still on the bottom in the way that they're treated.
 
Angela said:
Yet, Bicicleur, call it what you will, but people do judge who "belongs" and who doesn't in their society based on things like phenotype. Distrust and even hatred of "the other" is part of the human make-up whether we like it or not. It has always been a factor. The failure of "multiculturalism" in Europe is not just because new immigrants refuse to adapt themselves to native culture. It is also because the natives don't want to integrate them. They are too "foreign".

Look at the difference between the attitude toward immigrants in Europe and in the U.S. In the U.S., if you show the slightest willingness to adapt you're accepted by most people almost immediately. You don't have to give up your headscarf or turban or eat pork or whatever, although it certainly helps. In Europe, I have two first cousins who were born in Switzerland, and they're still not considered "Swiss", and one of them is married to a Swiss German, speaks German better than Italian, and on and on.

Even in countries like the U.S. that are built on immigration, the path to acceptance was easier the closer the incoming group was to the "natives". The Germans had an easier time than the Irish, who had an easier time than Jews and Italians, etc., and believe me, Italians of those generations were desperate to become "American".
Click to expand...

we've been over this several times
and I know about your family in Switzerland
I don't think it is the same here in Belgium, and in most places in Europe
you say Italians were desperate to become American
the main problem is that for decades the EU has allowed people in who were not desperate to become European, yet gave them all the benefits for which they gave very little in return
and I admit that through these experiences native Europeans have become quite suspicious and even prejudiced against newcomers
there was no policy toward immigration in Europe
there was a big leftist lobby who would let everyone in
first thing about immigration is that immigrants know very well what to expect and what not to expect and to be very firm in this
if the immigrants would have to give a proper return for all the efforts and benefits given to them, and the natives knew this, they would be accepted quicker
I agree that Europe still has to learn a lot about immigration

and the U.S. is not a 100 % succes story either
those who wanted to come to the U.S. knew the rules and knew that they had to make it themselves and they did
that is a succes
there is those who got in the U.S. without wanting it themselves, and there are the natives
the black slaves didn't chose to come to the U.S.
and allthough slavery has been abolished long time ago, they feel - rightly or not - that they are discriminated and 2nd class citizens, still after all these years
 
"I should elaborate. Some people are indeed here for learning more about their identity, or just genetics in general."

people who are on this forum to learn about their identity are people who identifiy themselves with their genetics. what would be the purpose ot this if you didn't actually place value on it?
i mean i once talked with a friend about latest scientific stuff from this forum and he then asked me:"well thats all nice but what is this actually good for? who actually cares?"
 
It's called intellectual curiosity.
 
Angela said:
It's called intellectual curiosity.
Click to expand...

he's an "intellectual". but he still isn't interessted in this. interesst isn't coming from nowhere imo.

if you study these things you must give it some kind of value. i don't want to say that you want to search your identity. there are many other reasons why you could want to give value to it. maybe some people here do not actually care that much about genetics but see them as a tool to look at the spread of ancient cultures. though then the main focus lies on the culture and not on the genetics behind it.

if i look at certain profile pictures, celts, romans, then its quite obvious for me that identity plays a big role here.
 
Ailchu said:
he's an "intellectual". but he still isn't interessted in this. interesst isn't coming from nowhere imo.

if you study these things you must give it some kind of value. i don't want to say that you want to search your identity. there are many other reasons why you could want to give value to it. maybe some people here do not actually care that much about genetics but see them as a tool to look at the spread of ancient cultures. though then the main focus lies on the culture and not on the genetics behind it.

if i look at certain profile pictures, celts, romans, then its quite obvious for me that identity plays a big role here.
Click to expand...

Well, I won't speak for others. I'll speak for myself. I was a history major, European history, specifically Italian history, but also always had an interest in the history and archaeology of ancient civilizations of the Near East.

By chance, as the result of doing some research on the Etruscans, I stumbled on the dienekes blog and was hooked.

I thought this was a way of answering questions I'd had for years about the pre-history and early history of Italy. I didn't need to "prove" my identity to myself. I know I'm Italian; I know right where my ancestors have been for the last 1000 years or so. I did take the 23andme test and join the dodecad project, because I wanted to contribute in some way to the research. I haven't taken any other tests; I don't see the need. While it was interesting seeing the "clusters" into which my ancestry was divided, it doesn't change how I "identify" or anything like that. Whatever it is it is.

It's just interesting seeing how we came to be us, which groups came from where to mix and create "Italians". That's it; no big angst, and nothing to prove, either to myself or anybody else. Certainly this doesn't come from any sense of wanting to prove the "superiority" of my "people".

I should also add that I don't know any Italian Americans and certainly no Italians (other than the ones on this and other sites), who gives a damn about any of this. My relatives won't participate even if I pay for the test! I am constantly surprised by the level of interest in northern Europe with this kind of testing and analysis. Every other day it seems some country is doing massive testing. I mean, it's interesting and all that, but to be honest it seems a bit weird to me. I mean, you know you're Dutch or Icelandic or Finn or whatever. You know where your ancestors have been for many generations. What is testing the whole country or at least big swathes of it going to tell you? I don't get it, and especially when there isn't a heck of a lot of difference between people in some neighboring northern European countries, much less within each country. The British project had to go to incredibly small grained analysis to find their "clusters". Still, not my business. Whatever floats your boat, as they say.
 
the non t-rolls registered here to ask questions and learn stuff
 
We are the offspring of a variety of tribes and civilizations.
Sometimes I go Roman, Neanderthal, Jefferson, Golden Man, Moka for Espresso, Eagle, today I’m going Disco. Tomorrow who knows. lol :)
 
Ailchu said:
if you study these things you must give it some kind of value. i don't want to say that you want to search your identity. there are many other reasons why you could want to give value to it. maybe some people here do not actually care that much about genetics but see them as a tool to look at the spread of ancient cultures. though then the main focus lies on the culture and not on the genetics behind it.
Click to expand...

I can't see what the problem is with identity. Why do we study history ? Why do we study ancient cultures ?

As a Frenchman, I feel (and quite intensely so) that I am heir to ancient Greek philosophy, to Roman juristic traditions, to two thousand years of Christian influence (though I am not properly speaking a believer), to Rousseau and Voltaire, to the French Revolution, and so on and on and on... This heritage defines and conditions each of my decisions, consciously or not. It also defines the politics of my nation. It amounts to a form of cultural determinism. Understanding the heritage means understanding the decisions, their whys and wherefores. What's wrong with that ?

Genetics is just part and parcel of the package. It never drove me to despise anyone. Nor kept me from reading literature from all over the world. Our planet is a patchwork of diverse cultures. Let them live and prosper. The world is better-off as long as it keeps them alive. Identity is not the problem. Artificially constructed contempt is the problem. Ill-understood ego-boosting strategies are the problem. Narrow-mindedness, ignorance, and aggressive obscurantism are the problem.
 
hrvclv said:
I can't see what the problem is with identity. Why do we study history ? Why do we study ancient cultures ?

As a Frenchman, I feel (and quite intensely so) that I am heir to ancient Greek philosophy, to Roman juristic traditions, to two thousand years of Christian influence (though I am not properly speaking a believer), to Rousseau and Voltaire, to the French Revolution, and so on and on and on... This heritage defines and conditions each of my decisions, consciously or not. It also defines the politics of my nation. It amounts to a form of cultural determinism. Understanding the heritage means understanding the decisions, their whys and wherefores. What's wrong with that ?

Genetics is just part and parcel of the package. It never drove me to despise anyone. Nor kept me from reading literature from all over the world. Our planet is a patchwork of diverse cultures. Let them live and prosper. The world is better-off as long as it keeps them alive. Identity is not the problem. Artificially constructed contempt is the problem. Ill-understood ego-boosting strategies are the problem. Narrow-mindedness, ignorance, and aggressive obscurantism are the problem.
Click to expand...

I feel like ethnicity is a generational thing that is in continuous evolution. As a result, it doesn’t make much sense to me to personally identify my modern life with any historical ethnicity. My love for history is more a curiosity about the human condition during different eras.

We like to say these genes could be “Celtic” or “Roman” because of knowledge of the recent past. However, if there are 1000 generations and 1000 possible ethnicities between “Red Lady of Paviland” and the present is it logical to assign any particular snp to any one of those 1000 ethnicities?

This hobby is fascinating to me because it helps answer some of histories mysteries and because new insights are constantly unfolding.
 
Angela said:
Well, I won't speak for others. I'll speak for myself. I was a history major, European history, specifically Italian history, but also always had an interest in the history and archaeology of ancient civilizations of the Near East.

By chance, as the result of doing some research on the Etruscans, I stumbled on the dienekes blog and was hooked.

I thought this was a way of answering questions I'd had for years about the pre-history and early history of Italy. I didn't need to "prove" my identity to myself. I know I'm Italian; I know right where my ancestors have been for the last 1000 years or so. I did take the 23andme test and join the dodecad project, because I wanted to contribute in some way to the research. I haven't taken any other tests; I don't see the need. While it was interesting seeing the "clusters" into which my ancestry was divided, it doesn't change how I "identify" or anything like that. Whatever it is it is.

It's just interesting seeing how we came to be us, which groups came from where to mix and create "Italians". That's it; no big angst, and nothing to prove, either to myself or anybody else. Certainly this doesn't come from any sense of wanting to prove the "superiority" of my "people".

I should also add that I don't know any Italian Americans and certainly no Italians (other than the ones on this and other sites), who gives a damn about any of this. My relatives won't participate even if I pay for the test! I am constantly surprised by the level of interest in northern Europe with this kind of testing and analysis. Every other day it seems some country is doing massive testing. I mean, it's interesting and all that, but to be honest it seems a bit weird to me. I mean, you know you're Dutch or Icelandic or Finn or whatever. You know where your ancestors have been for many generations. What is testing the whole country or at least big swathes of it going to tell you? I don't get it, and especially when there isn't a heck of a lot of difference between people in some neighboring northern European countries, much less within each country. The British project had to go to incredibly small grained analysis to find their "clusters". Still, not my business. Whatever floats your boat, as they say.
Click to expand...

My fascination with history was also what ultimately led me to my fascination with genetics. Ever since I was young, I've always regarded history as my favorite subject, and co-majored in it. I also do a lot of my own research online, to broaden my knowledge. Ancient history is also one of my favorites. When I started learning more about prehistory, I was hooked. I think it's especially exciting now that more research is being done in the area of Ancient DNA. Thanks to breakthroughs and reduction of cost in technology.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 77749 times.

Back
Top