How similar are Spaniards and Southern French people? Common ancestry?

He did not take it. But if you're implying a non paternity event, sorry, we're father and son suffice to say the very least.

I don't know, from what I've been told Iberian genetics can show up in many Sicilians and Southern Italians to such a degree where it can be a sizable percentage. To my knowledge, soldiers and traders both tended to migrate from the Kingdom of Aragon to Sicily.
Not implying that at all. Your mom's 1/2 Eastern European 1/2 French? You got 26 percent Eastern Europe so the other 24 percent is French?
 
Not sure what Helix is. But normally, you can upload your Geno2.0 results to FTDNA quite simply, using only your kit number (just visit the FTDNA site ; they work hand in hand, Geno is just a commercial showcase of FTdna). That done, you can download your autosomal "raw data" from your FTDNA page. That "raw data" file makes it possible for you to use all the free GEDmatch apps. It won't help with Y-dna though, because Geno doesn't go into STRs.

Culturally and linguistically, southern France and Iberia have a lot in common. However, most of it is part of the post-Roman conquest heritage (including languages, derived from the "vulgar Latin" spoken by Roman soldiers), and doesn't tell much about the genetic proximity prior to that.

Occitan is no longer spoken in my parts. My grandmothers used their local Auvergnat variant at family gatherings when talking to each other, and when talking to neighbours their age. I learnt some from listening to them, but I am currently compiling a lexicon, and what grammar rules I remember, to salvage it from total disappearance. Compulsory education in the late 19C, and the ban on local dialects imposed from Paris, led to ineluctable extinction. Yet, the days of the week, for example, are strictly identical in my dialect to what they are in Catalan.
 
Why do say Basque Country excepted?

Because genetically the Basque Country is an "island" ! Their autosomal makeup shows far less Steppe ancestry than the neighboring areas. And what Steppe they have seems to lack the "southwest Asian" component typical of IE-speaking Bronze Age invaders. See Maciamo's pages on this question (Haplo R1b, and "how did the Basques become R1b").
 
Because genetically the Basque Country is an "island" ! Their autosomal makeup shows far less Steppe ancestry than the neighboring areas. And what Steppe they have seems to lack the "southwest Asian" component typical of IE-speaking Bronze Age invaders. See Maciamo's pages on this question (Haplo R1b, and "how did the Basques become R1b").

According to the Haak et al. (2015) Figure 3 that Angela has posted a few times in other threads the Basque have a fair amount of Steppe ancestry. What seems to separate them from the Spanish and Southern French is their Western Hunter Gatherer ancestry. The Spanish and Tuscans appear to have none. The Southern French and Sardinians have very little.

23andMe is the most conservative company in my opinion in assigning Iberian or Italian to people with French ancestry. I only received 0.8% Iberian on 23andMe vs. 31% Southwestern on DNA Land. Also, I only received 0.3% Italian vs. 8.3% South Italy on Living DNA. I’m curious what someone from Auvergne would score. Have you considered testing with 23andMe?

By the way “Helix” is the latest version of the Natgeo test that employs the new imputation microchip. I’m not sure if it’s still compatible with a FTDNA transfer.
 
Mix of ANE - WHG - EEF in European countries.jpg

I don't know... What you say doesn't seem to be corroborated by the graph above. Problem is : I don't remember where I got it from, nor when it dates back to. It might be severely outdated.

As to 23andme... well, I feel I have spent enough on dna for the time being. FTDNA are the cheapest on the market, and we in Auvergne are said to be slightly tight-fisted !! Slander, I'm sure. But still...
 
According to the Haak et al. (2015) Figure 3 that Angela has posted a few times in other threads the Basque have a fair amount of Steppe ancestry. What seems to separate them from the Spanish and Southern French is their Western Hunter Gatherer ancestry. The Spanish and Tuscans appear to have none. The Southern French and Sardinians have very little.

23andMe is the most conservative company in my opinion in assigning Iberian or Italian to people with French ancestry. I only received 0.8% Iberian on 23andMe vs. 31% Southwestern on DNA Land. Also, I only received 0.3% Italian vs. 8.3% South Italy on Living DNA. I’m curious what someone from Auvergne would score. Have you considered testing with 23andMe?

By the way “Helix” is the latest version of the Natgeo test that employs the new imputation microchip. I’m not sure if it’s still compatible with a FTDNA transfer.

Exactly this. At the bottom. I can't transfer the raw DNA to be read/interpreted because it's through helix. Is there any chance anyone here could perhaps teach me to read my raw DNA? So that maybe I could enter it in and determine my haplogroup?
 
Also for everyone, how lenient/likely is Nat Geo to assign Southwestern European ancestry? Do they use it quite liberally or is it likely that the test is accurate?
And what DNA test should I take next? Should I even bother with autosomal testing or should I just get a Y67 test from FTDNA to figure out my paternal history and haplogroup? If I was interested in discovering my family history, and my deep history, what's the best bang for my buck?

Additionally, why and how did the Spanish contribute to the gene pool of Southern Italy and Sicily? What subsect of the Spanish population left the biggest impact?
 
Not sure what Helix is. But normally, you can upload your Geno2.0 results to FTDNA quite simply, using only your kit number (just visit the FTDNA site ; they work hand in hand, Geno is just a commercial showcase of FTdna). That done, you can download your autosomal "raw data" from your FTDNA page. That "raw data" file makes it possible for you to use all the free GEDmatch apps. It won't help with Y-dna though, because Geno doesn't go into STRs.

Culturally and linguistically, southern France and Iberia have a lot in common. However, most of it is part of the post-Roman conquest heritage (including languages, derived from the "vulgar Latin" spoken by Roman soldiers), and doesn't tell much about the genetic proximity prior to that.

Occitan is no longer spoken in my parts. My grandmothers used their local Auvergnat variant at family gatherings when talking to each other, and when talking to neighbours their age. I learnt some from listening to them, but I am currently compiling a lexicon, and what grammar rules I remember, to salvage it from total disappearance. Compulsory education in the late 19C, and the ban on local dialects imposed from Paris, led to ineluctable extinction. Yet, the days of the week, for example, are strictly identical in my dialect to what they are in Catalan.

So FTNA would read my autosomal bio Geographic results the same as Nat Geo would? Helix too? So the SW European thing is actually somewhat accurate, wow.
 
So FTNA would read my autosomal bio Geographic results the same as Nat Geo would? Helix too? So the SW European thing is actually somewhat accurate, wow.

I don’t know if there was a significant population movement from Iberia to Southern Italy. I would think the similarities derive from a shared Neolithic farming component.

If you want to see what influences are in your genetics from thousands of years ago I think Natgeo or DNA Land are the way to go. If you want to know where your ancestors are from within the last few hundred years I would go with 23andMe. I think the difference in time frame corresponds to the difference in length of chromosome segments being analyzed.

I thought Natgeo provided haplogroups? If they don’t with Helix I would go with 23andMe then. If you want a true detailed analysis of your Y chromosome I would save up for Full Genomes Corp Y Elite 2.1 test instead of wasting money on intermediate tests with less info.
 
I don’t know if there was a significant population movement from Iberia to Southern Italy. I would think the similarities derive from a shared Neolithic farming component.

If you want to see what influences are in your genetics from thousands of years ago I think Natgeo or DNA Land are the way to go. If you want to know where your ancestors are from within the last few hundred years I would go with 23andMe. I think the difference in time frame corresponds to the difference in length of chromosome segments being analyzed.

I thought Natgeo provided haplogroups? If they don’t with Helix I would go with 23andMe then. If you want a true detailed analysis of your Y chromosome I would save up for Full Genomes Corp Y Elite 2.1 test instead of wasting money on intermediate tests with less info.

Not to play devil's advocate, but to my knowledge the populations of Sicily and Southern Italy aren't necessarily related to the populations of Iberia/SW France. Did Spanish soldiers emigrate to Sicily quite often? There is a fair amount of 'Italian' in there with 13% being identifiably Italian and 19% being Anatolian. Is it possible that spanish men or even French men settled down with Italian women?

It's strange to say the least.

Anyway, is 23andMe cross compatible with other websites if I wanted to analyze my DNA?

And tell me more about Corp Y Elite 2.1, what makes it so special? What is so great about it?

And for both options, is there a way to expedite the process so I can get my results sooner? Maybe an extra fee or something?
 
Not to play devil's advocate, but to my knowledge the populations of Sicily and Southern Italy aren't necessarily related to the populations of Iberia/SW France. Did Spanish soldiers emigrate to Sicily quite often? There is a fair amount of 'Italian' in there with 13% being identifiably Italian and 19% being Anatolian. Is it possible that spanish men or even French men settled down with Italian women?

It's strange to say the least.

Anyway, is 23andMe cross compatible with other websites if I wanted to analyze my DNA?

And tell me more about Corp Y Elite 2.1, what makes it so special? What is so great about it?

And for both options, is there a way to expedite the process so I can get my results sooner? Maybe an extra fee or something?

apart from tuscany, papal states and venice and its vast lands ....all other areas of italy where either under spain or france so one could easily see what you describe
 
Gentlemen, there is a reason why most of Iberia and North Italy and even a bit of Tuscany plot near one another on virtually every PCA I've ever seen.

It's because they share a lot of ancestry in common, most of it dating to the Neolithic and Chalcolithic.

Differing gene flow impacts on Southern Italy/Sicily pull it apart from Spain,but that underlying similar EN/MN ancestry is still shared between the two.

Some commercial tests pick it up and some don't. Perhaps 23andme doesn't show it because they have a lot more Italian samples, and so the alleles in a particular person find a match in other Italians quite easily. Perhaps some other companies include "Northern Italy" in the "Italian" cluster? I don't know. Never having taken any of these tests I lose track of the definition of their clusters.

That doesn't mean that there weren't continuing contacts and admixture to some degree. However, I think whatever there was was much more prevalent in Northwest Italy because of the Beakers and continuing admixture along the north Mediterranean rim from Liguria/Tuscany all the way to Valencia. That's why a lot of Northwest Italians, including me, get chunks of "Iberian" even in 23andme, whereas Southern Italians get almost none, but get quite a bit of Balkan.

If one were to follow Graham and Coop, there's been no significant admixture between Spaniards and Italians for thousands of years. However, I don't think the Popres data they used included many Piemontese, Ligurians, or Northwest Tuscans.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Some soldiers from Aragon are not the kind of contact that substantially changes the genome of an area, in my opinion. There has to be more than that.
 
Gentlemen, there is a reason why most of Iberia and North Italy and even a bit of Tuscany plot near one another on virtually every PCA I've ever seen.
It's because they share a lot of ancestry in common, most of it dating to the Neolithic and Chalcolithic.
Differing gene flow impacts on Southern Italy/Sicily pull it apart from Spain,but that underlying similar EN/MN ancestry is still shared between the two.
Some commercial tests pick it up and some don't. Perhaps 23andme doesn't show it because they have a lot more Italian samples, and so the alleles in a particular person find a match in other Italians quite easily. Perhaps some other companies include "Northern Italy" in the "Italian" cluster? I don't know. Never having taken any of these tests I lose track of the definition of their clusters.
That doesn't mean that there weren't continuing contacts and admixture to some degree. However, I think whatever there was was much more prevalent in Northwest Italy because of the Beakers and continuing admixture along the north Mediterranean rim from Liguria/Tuscany all the way to Valencia. That's why a lot of Northwest Italians, including me, get chunks of "Iberian" even in 23andme, whereas Southern Italians get almost none, but get quite a bit of Balkan.
If one were to follow Graham and Coop, there's been no significant admixture between Spaniards and Italians for thousands of years. However, I don't think the Popres data they used included many Piemontese, Ligurians, or Northwest Tuscans.
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555
Some soldiers from Aragon are not the kind of contact that substantially changes the genome of an area, in my opinion. There has to be more than that.
I have a few rebuttals, but before I say anything, I will always admit that I'm a novice in this area.
With that said, my Sicilian relatives on my fathers side always would say the town we hailed from (not going to be specific, but assume near the western tip of the island) was settled by Spaniards and Aragonese soldiers. My grandfather boasted that his grandfather was a 'giant of a man' and looked more 'Spanish than Sicilian' with red hair and piercing blue eyes - how true or accurate that is judging by the statement, I don't know.
My Neapolitan relatives through my father also claim that they have Spanish blood being that their last name was an Italianized form of an original Spanish name - surprisingly enough their DNA tests somewhat confirmed it.
What I'm getting at is, to my knowledge, there was not a mass influx of Spaniards into Sicily/S. Italy of course, we know this. But for the hundreds of years under Aragonese rule, there were thousands of nobles, generals, captains, soldiers, merchants, officials, and magistrates who passed through, resided and retired to the island. This is undeniable. Not to mention, many Sicilian and Southern Italian officials often married into Spanish families.
Call me crazy, but in a small village on the western seaboard of Sicily, if a few Spanish soldiers had kids with local women and those kids went on to have kids and so on and so forth, the genetic impact of that particular little village is forever changed. Does it impact the Italian populace at large? Of course not, but it does alter a family's history.

Call me crazy, but I find that being far more plausible than me having such a high degree of what I'd assume to be Sicani ancestry (originally Spaniards/common ancestors) being that only 25% of my father's inherited genetics will be identifiably Sicilian.

This is ironic, especially being that I have a surname which is coincidentally linked to people who were foundling/illegitimate.
Does that make sense?
And fwiw, the entire breakdown for my father's side should be 19% Anatolian, 13% Italian with the remainder presumably coming from SW Europe.
 
Also what is your opinion on the accuracy of nat geo's geno 2.0 autosomal testing system compared to other programs?
 
apart from tuscany, papal states and venice and its vast lands ....all other areas of italy where either under spain or france so one could easily see what you describe
Do you know of any books that describe Spanish soldiers retiring to Sicily or producing illegitimate children with Sicilian women?
 
Do you know of any books that describe Spanish soldiers retiring to Sicily or producing illegitimate children with Sicilian women?

I have no doubt such things happened. Certain families may have such ancestry, and certain towns may have an unusual amount of it.

Even if all of that could be proved factually instead of as "family stories", that wouldn't change the fact that such occasional contacts are highly unlikely to have changed the average genome of millions of Southern Italians/Sicilians.

If that were the case we would see it in IBD analyses, and we don't, or Ralph and Coop et al would have found it.

I recommend you read it.
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Take a particular look at Figure S12.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.s012
 
Yes, absolutely, Angela!

Skeptical Spaniard, your south Italian and Sicilian family is very atypical genetically in comparison to other southern Italians and Sicilians due to the Spanish ancestry. Sicilians and south Italians should only score a tiny percentage of Iberian, if any. That's my take on this.
 
I have no doubt such things happened. Certain families may have such ancestry, and certain towns may have an unusual amount of it.

Even if all of that could be proved factually instead of as "family stories", that wouldn't change the fact that such occasional contacts are highly unlikely to have changed the average genome of millions of Southern Italians/Sicilians.

If that were the case we would see it in IBD analyses, and we don't, or Ralph and Coop et al would have found it.

I recommend you read it.
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Take a particular look at Figure S12.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.s012

I will do so. Thanks for the links.

I'm still skeptical that 42%, close to 50% of my genetics are registered as SW European. Common ancestry, eh, don't know.

Ideally I'd like to take another DNA autosomal test to verify my results.
 
Yes, absolutely, Angela!

Skeptical Spaniard, your south Italian and Sicilian family is very atypical genetically in comparison to other southern Italians and Sicilians due to the Spanish ancestry. Sicilians and south Italians should only score a tiny percentage of Iberian, if any. That's my take on this.

Bear in mind, my mother is also half French - or at least mostly French.

So I'm getting both a sizable contingent from both my mother and father.

As far as my father goes, I'm assuming I inherit close to 20% of SW European genetics from him, a little bit more from my mom.

What do you think it means for my dad? If I'm testing close to 20% does that mean there's a lot of ancestry, or that it's more recent or what?
 

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