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Thread: How similar are Spaniards and Southern French people? Common ancestry?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    I think the key issue is for you to do some genealogical research on the other 1/4 of your mom’s side to specifically find out where her ancestry is from in France. I’ve seen Ancestry ethnicity estimates of Southwestern French score 70%-80% Iberian Peninsula. If she is more than 50% Gascon then you could easily inherit 42% just from her.
    Another point I want to emphasize is that the Natgeo Helix test has no Western Europe category. They only have Northwestern which is basically north of the Loire River. Everything else for France gets assigned to Southwestern or South Central.
    You might want to test with a company that has a Western Europe category such FTDNA with their “West and Central Europe” category or 23andMe with their “French and German” category to see how closely your French resembles Iberian. To show you how labels can be misleading let me reiterate my scores.
    DNA Land (Similar Regions to Helix):
    Northwestern 63%
    Southwestern 31%
    FTDNA:
    West and Central 90%
    Iberian 0%
    23andMe:
    Northwestern(Western): 86.1%
    Broadly European(Central): 3.1%
    Iberian 0.8%
    Living DNA:
    Great Britain (Northwestern) 63%
    Rest is unassigned in Cautious Mode
    So to follow up on this issue, even if my father had substantial french ancestry, the ancestry would likely be coming from the south west of France near Spain - descendants of the Vascones?

    Is that even accurate historically? I thought the French who inhabited Sicily mainly hailed from normandy, Anjou and Burgundy?

    What explains the Spanish angle there in your opinion?

    As far as my mother, that seems unlikely being that she's half Eastern European. So she can't be more than 50% from Southern France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am joining the discussion a bit late. The South French should be divided in at least 2 or 3 subgroups. The Gascons and Basques in the Southwest are the closest to the Spaniards, and particularly to the Basques and Navarrans. These people are all primarily descended from the ancient Vascones.

    You can see on this map of ancient Iberian ancestry just how close they are:




    The Provençals are closer to the North Italians than to the Spaniards. Provence was heavily colonised by the Romans and already had Greek colonies (Marseille, Nice) before that. The Languedoc in between Gascony and Provence is mixed Vascones and Greco-Roman, with also higher levels of Celtic/Gaulish and Germanic (Gothic and Frankish) than either Gascony or Provence. Languedoc is closer to Catalonia in Spain, and indeed southern Languedoc (Aude) and Roussillon is almost indistinguishable from coastal Catalan.
    So for all intents and purposes, I'm mostly Iberian and therefore not all that genetically dissimilar from people who live in those areas?

    As far as culturally and linguistically, are people from those areas more apt to identify with Iberian ancestry then French ancestry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASkepticalSpaniard View Post
    As far as culturally and linguistically, are people from those areas more apt to identify with Iberian ancestry then French ancestry?
    If by those areas you mean South France, then of course not. Genetics is completely distinct from culture and language.
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    Hi, Skeptical.

    Still skeptical, I see...
    Well, three things :
    Genetically : As said upthread, southern France and Iberia owing so much to Early Farmers, there is of course some proximity. Maciamo's map above makes it quite clear.
    Linguistically : Spanish and French are both descended from Latin. So as a Frenchman who never did Spanish in school, I can't understand much Spanish when spoken, but I do understand a lot of what I read. The same goes for Portuguese; and Italian (which I did learn in school for a while though).
    Culturally : well, I'd say I feel a kinship with our Spanish neighbors, but no more so than I do with Brits, Germans, Hungarians, Poles or other Europeans. (By the way, I am not too sure where that sense of kinship stops. I've had people here at home from very distant places and though we had very different backgrounds, I sometimes felt closer to them than to some of my next door neighbors).

    I agree your results are surprising, for what they show and what they "forget" (the Levantine part). I am not sure you'll find answers here though. I'd suggest you test again, if you can't use your data on other apps. Maybe you could also do some genealogical searching, dig into the archives (eg, civil registration services). It's a lot of work, but it's also great fun - detective work, somehow. Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Hi, Skeptical.

    Still skeptical, I see...
    Well, three things :
    Genetically : As said upthread, southern France and Iberia owing so much to Early Farmers, there is of course some proximity. Maciamo's map above makes it quite clear.
    Linguistically : Spanish and French are both descended from Latin. So as a Frenchman who never did Spanish in school, I can't understand much Spanish when spoken, but I do understand a lot of what I read. The same goes for Portuguese; and Italian (which I did learn in school for a while though).
    Culturally : well, I'd say I feel a kinship with our Spanish neighbors, but no more so than I do with Brits, Germans, Hungarians, Poles or other Europeans. (By the way, I am not too sure where that sense of kinship stops. I've had people here at home from very distant places and though we had very different backgrounds, I sometimes felt closer to them than to some of my next door neighbors).

    I agree your results are surprising, for what they show and what they "forget" (the Levantine part). I am not sure you'll find answers here though. I'd suggest you test again, if you can't use your data on other apps. Maybe you could also do some genealogical searching, dig into the archives (eg, civil registration services). It's a lot of work, but it's also great fun - detective work, somehow. Good luck.
    Yep even I feel kinship to all of France to be honest. We have a lot in common with each other and we are both latin (the north are trying too hard to Germanic but can I blame them??). So I understood your post. But still just like Spain/Italy there are different languages and cultures In France so maybe that's one of the reasons I feel close to them

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdeoF View Post
    Yep even I feel kinship to all of France to be honest. We have a lot in common with each other and we are both latin (the north are trying too hard to Germanic but can I blame them??). So I understood your post. But still just like Spain/Italy there are different languages and cultures In France so maybe that's one of the reasons I feel close to them
    Well, it seems to me, although our French members would know better, that the French have pretty much stamped out the "regional" languages, except in in the Basque and Corsican areas.

    It's not like Italy in that regard. In my experience there's a definite difference between south and north, but a lot of the local folk customs are gone. They're going everywhere, though.

    Click to enlarge:

    http://bostoniano.info/wp-content/up...a-dialetti.png



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, it seems to me, although our French members would know better, that the French have pretty much stamped out the "regional" languages, except in in the Basque and Corsican areas.

    It's not like Italy in that regard. In my experience there's a definite difference between south and north, but a lot of the local folk customs are gone. They're going everywhere, though.

    Click to enlarge:

    http://bostoniano.info/wp-content/up...a-dialetti.png

    Wow... How did you manage to preserve so much diversity ? It makes me feel simply envious. I wish it had been the same here in France. Occitan dialects have been virtually erased by centralized, compulsory education. Only very old people in rural areas speak some occitan nowadays, and most of them imperfectly. I deplore it. My grandparents' language had a flavor of its own. It was as harsh as the lives they lived, and its mere phonology, in itself, "told a story".

    Breton and Alsatian have been similarly affected, though to a lesser degree. Basque seems to fare slightly better, owing to strong connections with the larger Basque area in Spain. But the overall trend is towards uniformity. Which to me means impoverishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Wow... How did you manage to preserve so much diversity ? It makes me feel simply envious. I wish it had been the same here in France. Occitan dialects have been virtually erased by centralized, compulsory education. Only very old people in rural areas speak some occitan nowadays, and most of them imperfectly. I deplore it. My grandparents' language had a flavor of its own. It was as harsh as the lives they lived, and its mere phonology, in itself, "told a story".

    Breton and Alsatian have been similarly affected, though to a lesser degree. Basque seems to fare slightly better, owing to strong connections with the larger Basque area in Spain. But the overall trend is towards uniformity. Which to me means impoverishment.
    That's the trend even in Italy, despite the fact that the government recognizes a lot of "languages". It began with Mussolini, who like all nationalists believed it's easier to have a unified strong country if everyone speaks the same language. (That's why nationalists from all around Italy, beginning in the Middle Ages, pushed to have Tuscan as the "Italian" language.) He is the one who mandated that "Tuscan Italian" be taught in all the schools. The next step was the extremely large internal migration from south to north, strongest in areas in Northwest Italy in the beginning, where industrialization first took place. In order to speak to one another people turned to "standard" Tuscan Italian. One of the biggest influences, imo, was television. In order to reach the broadest audience, it was all in "standard" Italian.

    In addition to geographical differences, there was also a "class" element. I don't speak the dialects of my own region, and even rather imperfectly understand them, because my father forbade anyone to speak it in front of me. He even tried to correct my pronunciation so it didn't sound so "local". It was quite a "thing" with him. When we came to America he would have me "perform" (recite poetry or pieces of prose) to show off my perfect, "pure" Italian. :) He thought, as you say, that the dialects were harsh, and uneducated, and in addition he was a fervent nationalist of the Mazzini school.

    Anyway, the map is misleading in some ways. In the south, people still speak a lot of dialect. It's a balancing act: with people they don't know they start out with standard Italian, they also speak it in formal settings, and again, the more educated the person the more likely they are not to speak the dialect. In the Veneto, with its long continuity as a separate kingdom, they much more often speak their dialect among themselves, even if they're relatively educated. In my own area, the dialects are virtually gone. There's been a recent push to bring them back a bit, with street signs appearing in both "languages", and a few hours a week devoted to dialect in school, but imo it's not coming back: too much immigration. It's also just plain ineffficient for communicating. In the last few years a very popular series was done about Neapolitan organized crime called "Gomorrah". It had to be broadcast with Italian subtitles. :) In tv series like Montalbano, they have only supporting, minor characters speak in Sicilian dialects, and even then it's Italian influenced, or it wouldn't have the audience they wanted.

    Anyway, as to why so much diversity in language? Same reason(s) there's so much diversity in food and customs. Partly it's geography, partly it's different political systems for so many hundreds of years, but I think partly we just don't like change, and we're inordinately attached to our own local "ways". It's called "campanilismo": attachment to and identification to only the area within sound of our own church bells. :) It has both negatives and positives, like everything else in life, and I'm "guilty" of it too, if not in regard to language.

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    How similar are Spaniards and Southern French people? Common ancestry?

    That’s what happens after building so many Walls.
    They “Built those Walls” lol.
    They Kept the locals in and the outsiders out, or at least they tried.
    Last edited by Salento; 30-03-18 at 21:12. Reason: Autocorrect problems
    🕷️

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    The small or small minority languages that have the opportunity act the same or worse than the big ones, and use their minority languages in their territories as a weapon of segregation, xenophobia and discrimination, and if they have not yet done so, it is because they have not had the opportunity, the opportune conditions to carry it out, but they would end up doing it as I said at the least opportunity they had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    The small or small minority languages that have the opportunity act the same or worse than the big ones, and use their minority languages in their territories as a weapon of segregation, xenophobia and discrimination, and if they have not yet done so, it is because they have not had the opportunity, the opportune conditions to carry it out, but they would end up doing it as I said at the least opportunity they had.

    ???????? Not sure I understand what you mean. African Americans speak English, yet they get shot dead at the drop of a hat. On the other hand, some minorities cultivate their languages as a way of marking their refusal to get integrated into the mainstream community. Some small communities also stick to their language to resist what they perceive as cultural imperialism. It has to do with heritage and identity, not necessarily with xenophobia.

    Anyway, the use of dialects in Italy or southern France can hardly be suspected of segregative intentions. Most speakers of such dialects also speak/spoke the national official language perfectly well (local accent excepted) and keep the dialect for neighbors. I very much doubt my grandmother ever intended to segregate anyone when she spoke dialect to the guy across the street. She quite naturally spoke French to everyone else, including me. Just like I use English on the forum and speak French to my wife.

    I deplore the extinction of dialects because they were distinct "linguistic objects" - artefacts, if you wish, which testified to a culture, just like Cardium pottery does. Not because they locked us in, or others out.

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    Obviously I'm not talking about African-American blacks or grandmothers talking to neighbors about their things. But in Spain linguistic minorities do use their minority languages as a weapon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Obviously I'm not talking about African-American blacks or grandmothers talking to neighbors about their things. But in Spain linguistic minorities do use their minority languages as a weapon.
    Er... an offensive or defensive weapon ? I can hardly think they would use their language to invade and subdue their neighbors...
    The Catalans haven't planted many bombs recently, and it's a while since the Basques gave it up, isn't it?
    Or are you talking about other minorities ? Those who do plant bombs don't emphasize language issues very much, do they?

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    No, they will use their little tongues to invade or subdue their neighbors for the simple reason that they do not have an army, hahaha. But they can when they feel a little economically good to discriminate and impose totalitarianism on their small regional governments, but which they dream or see as larger and more important than they really are. And with this I have said everything. If you do not understand it, buy a dictionary, I am talking about my country, which is Spain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    No, they will use their little tongues to invade or subdue their neighbors for the simple reason that they do not have an army, hahaha. But they can when they feel a little economically good to discriminate and impose totalitarianism on their small regional governments, but which they dream or see as larger and more important than they really are. And with this I have said everything. If you do not understand it, buy a dictionary, I am talking about my country, which is Spain.
    No need to turn aggressive. I understand you are talking about your country, in a legitimately passionate way. We all have our little shortcomings. I should buy a dictionary ; you should buy a grammar... nobody's perfect.

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    If small regions with minority languages ​​had an army, do not doubt that they would attack the State. In the Basque issue do not confuse a terrorist group like E.T.A. with the people of the Basque Country, although part of that people must have somehow given logistics to the terrorist group, it has not been a war more than with the terrorists, do not be confused.


    The language is not that they use it to attack the neighbor, they use it to create separation in their own regional territory. They are regions that if in a period of History they have grown economically and their imagination is exalted and derives in believing a great nation at the same level of the own State to which they belong that really is that it has made it rich.


    Diversity yes, but very controlled as it puts at risk the security of the truly large states to which these small territories belong.


    I understand that you had a regional language, and probably if we give you wings you would come to believe yourself more important than your own State, then you would begin to indoctrinate children in schools by plague the schoolbooks of historical lies in favor of your small minority language and territory. And it would begin to be said, we are small but in Europe there are also countries that are even smaller, like Belgium for example and then sow in their population the hatred of their own country to get in the end to be independent another new State.


    Well, it is going to be that no, because then Europe would cease to exist. Look at U.S.A. a country wonder, it has diversity and has very few problems of territorial segregation or Russia that huge nation. I do not want a Europe of small regions believing Gods and fighting for a cow.

    Small regions of Europe with a small regional language stop using victimhood, it does not work anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    I understand that you had a regional language, and probably if we give you wings you would come to believe yourself more important than your own State, then you would begin to indoctrinate children in schools by plague the schoolbooks of historical lies in favor of your small minority language and territory. And it would begin to be said, we are small but in Europe there are also countries that are even smaller, like Belgium for example and then sow in their population the hatred of their own country to get in the end to be independent another new State.
    You are lending me ideas I never had ! The good point is : when you bother to explain, I can understand without a dictionary.

    Let me be honest. I totally agree with you that in today's Europe, struggling for independence makes little sense for a small region. I disapprove of the Catalan initiative. History is not moving in that direction. I think they should have asked for more cultural (or even fiscal, if they wish) autonomy, without trying to break away from Spain. I hope France will sooner or later find an agreement of that sort with the Corsicans.

    This said, I didn't approve of the response given by Madrid, either. I thought such methods belonged to bygone days.

    I don't believe cultivating one's language necessarily means being against others. It's just a way of asserting an identity, of being who we are - without intending to hurt anyone else. I feel distinctly Auvergnat, but also just as distinctly French, and distinctly European on top of that. None is exclusive of the other. Why should it be? These are just superposed layers of culture.

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    `^^^
    Thank you for your time, you are really a very balanced, sensible and honest person; a pleasure to have met you, we really agree on all the points. Perhaps there are small misunderstandings of understanding due to the translator.


    Greetings and congratulations for your understanding and cordiality.

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    Why all this fascination with the Basque people, while we're at it? I'm not racist but the Basque people and their fanclub culture sickens me.

    It's just another language; But the Basques were so clannish did they really think it would be necessary to inbreed and not assimilate with Spain or other tribes/leagues/nations? If anything; Maciamo's theory on how Basques became R1b exposes them as an Indo-European people on the paternal line. (This would make them a 50/50 mix of indigenous Neolithic Iberians and Proto-Celtic "mongrels".) The Basque people and culture are really just a delusional folkways; and the people have only forgotten their Indo-European roots despite due to them keeping their Neolithic language. While all the other Iberians who spoke Neolithic tongues were forced to speak Indo-European.

    In other words; they are not as special as they think they are, so their Basque nationalism seems like nonsense.

    The only thing about the Basque people is that they have lesser Germanic or Greek admixture (for example) than the surrounding nations. R1b as a majority; proves they are not a "special" people; nor are they completely as ancient as their Indo-European Latin-speaking neighbors.

    The only so-called "unique" thing about the Basque people is that they have the most common genetic markers for white men around the world: R1b Y-DNA and H1 mtdna. (But I bet you Australians and even Germans have millions of R1b and H1 men.) So what makes Basques so special, then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redmayne View Post
    Why all this fascination with the Basque people, while we're at it? I'm not racist but the Basque people and their fanclub culture sickens me.

    It's just another language; But the Basques were so clannish did they really think it would be necessary to inbreed and not assimilate with Spain or other tribes/leagues/nations? If anything; Maciamo's theory on how Basques became R1b exposes them as an Indo-European people on the paternal line. (This would make them a 50/50 mix of indigenous Neolithic Iberians and Proto-Celtic "mongrels".) The Basque people and culture are really just a delusional folkways; and the people have only forgotten their Indo-European roots despite due to them keeping their Neolithic language. While all the other Iberians who spoke Neolithic tongues were forced to speak Indo-European.

    In other words; they are not as special as they think they are, so their Basque nationalism seems like nonsense.

    The only thing about the Basque people is that they have lesser Germanic or Greek admixture (for example) than the surrounding nations. R1b as a majority; proves they are not a "special" people; nor are they completely as ancient as their Indo-European Latin-speaking neighbors.

    The only so-called "unique" thing about the Basque people is that they have the most common genetic markers for white men around the world: R1b Y-DNA and H1 mtdna. (But I bet you Australians and even Germans have millions of R1b and H1 men.) So what makes Basques so special, then?
    You've just received an infraction for this provocative racist attack on Basque people.

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    I think Sabina Arana has a lot of responsibility. Sabino Arana in The Basque Country and Robert in Catalonia import and transplant in their small regions the nationalist ideas of Central Europe because they thought that it would be the future.

    A lie repeated 1000 times ends up being accepted as true.

    Famous quotes by Sabino Arana (famous is irony)

    Maqueto (or maketo) is the name given to people who emigrated from other regions of Spain to Vizcaya, and in general to the Basque Country, from the last third of the nineteenth century, as a result of the intense process of industrialization experienced by these territories.

    Bizkaitarra, 29: "The bizkaino degenerates in character if it rubs against the stranger; the Spanish needs from time to time a foreign invasion that civilizes it ".

    Bizkaitarra, 29: "The bizkaino is to walk handsome and manly; the Spaniard or does not know how to walk, or if he is handsome, is a female type ".

    Bizkaitarra, 29: "The physiognomy of bizkaino is intelligent and noble; that of the inexpressive and severe Spanish. The bizkaino is wiry and agile; Spanish is lazy and clumsy. Bizkaino is intelligent and adept at all kinds of work; Spanish is short of intelligence and lacks skill for the simplest jobs. Ask any construction contractor, and you will know that a bizkaino makes as many as three maketos together in the same time ".

    Bizkaitarra, 31: "You already know, Euzkeldunes, to love Euzkera you have to hate Spain!".

    Misogyny, racism and xenophobia, the pillars on which the PNV was built and which it still has as a reference today
    After the ETB program on hatred of Spain, we reviewed phrases by Sabino Arana, revered by the PNV;

    "The woman is vain, she is superficial, she is selfish".

    https://navarra.elespanol.com/articulo/politica/sabino-arana-racismo-xenofobia-uxue-
    barkos/20170306191434100973.html


    "If it were morally possible a Bizkaia foral and euzkeldun, but with maketa race, its realization would be the most hateful thing in the world, the most despicable aberration of a people."

    The woman is vain, is superficial, is selfish, has to a great extent all the weaknesses of human nature. It is inferior to the man in head and heart. What would become of the woman if the man did not love her? Beast of burden, and instrument of his bestial passion: nothing more ".

    (To his wife) "All your happiness in this world, Nikole of my heart, will consist of these two things: in fulfilling your duties and in being mine."

    "In towns as degenerate as the maketo and maketizado, the universal suffrage is a true crime, a suicide".

    The friction of our people with Spanish immediately and necessarily causes in our race ignorance and loss of intelligence, weakness and corruption of heart.

    "Hear him speak to a bizkaino, and you will hear the most euphoric, moral and cultured of languages, hear a Spaniard, and if you only hear him bray, you can be satisfied, because the ass does not utter indecent voices or blasphemies."

    These are the pearls that Sabino Arana released. It is no wonder that later the bloody terrorist group E.T.A.

  22. #72
    Regular Member Carlos's Avatar
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    Far from the patient of Sabino Arana, the true Basque spirit would be better represented by the great writer Unamuno of the Generation of '98.


    "I am Basque and, therefore, dually Spanish"

    '' Gentlemen, when you see a dirty, bearded and ragged soldier, squawk and greet him because he is a hero. He is a Spanish soldier. "

    Other phrases of personalities of world order:

    "And here it will be seen if the Argentines are really descendants of the Spaniards, the battle will be difficult and difficult for ours, if on the other hand they are Italians, the battle will be decided in a matter of hours".


    - British Minister of Defense to Margaret Thacher, during the Falklands War.

    "Spaniards like to deny their country and its institutions, but they do not allow foreigners to do so."


    - Napoleon Bonaparte. (True true true, ok Napoleon)

    "Spaniards only know how to do three things well: love, war and the fool."


    - Voltaire

    "I want to see the Spaniards by sea, because if we see them by land, may San Jorge protect us."


    - British officer.

    "With a Spanish soldier and German command I will conquer the world"
    In reference to the bravery of the soldiers of the Blue Division.
    "It is difficult to imagine braver soldiers, they barely take cover, they defy death, I know, in any case, that our men are happy when they have Spaniards as neighbors"
    "[Spaniards] are undaunted fighters who defy death"


    - Adolf Hitler

    "Spaniard who comes to the world may God preserve you, one of the two Spains must freeze your heart."


    - Antonio Machado

    "The ambition of the Spaniards, which has made them accumulate so many lands and seas, makes them think that nothing is inaccessible"


    - Duplessis Mornay French Huguenot.

    "With the mother and with the country rightly or wrongly"


    - Canovas

    "Agile, bellicose, restless, Hispania is different from Italica, more ready for war because of the rough terrain and the genius of men."


    - Tito Livio On the character of the Hispanic man.

    "I made 3 mistakes: getting into Spain, getting into Russia and doing it with England at my back."


    - Napoleon Bonaparte

    "I speak Latin with God, Italian with musicians, Spanish with troops, German with lackeys, French with ladies and English with my horses / my dogs"


    - Emperor Charles I

    "Spain is a formidable country, with a wonderful history of creation, of innovation, of project continuity ... It is the most intelligible country in Europe, but what happens is that people insist on not understanding it."


    - Julián Marías

    And a thousand more phrases about Spain that leave Sabino Arana as what it is that is nothing other than shit like a grand piano.

  23. #73
    Regular Member Carlos's Avatar
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    Lidia Valentín Pérez, world and European champion (León)

    And Lidia is not Basque. As always are the Basques: We are the strongest, we are the strongest, but hey, what is it, what have they believed, go for a walk.

  24. #74
    Regular Member Carlos's Avatar
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    I have received an infraction for quoting Sabino Arana and phrases from different personalities of the world.

    I think the infraction should go to Sabino Arana, not to me.
    For the infraction to be fair, I will speak and say what I think personally, so the infraction will be fair.


    The Basques are the worst people on earth and the Catalans the most disgusting people in all of Spain and part of Europe.


    Now you can give me a fair ifraction.

    Anyway, I leave the forum, it's a forum that is dead. It is an anti-Spanish forum, it closes threads of success as it was; Celtic of Iberia, and the Catalans and Basques are untouchable, when they are rats, sepa-ratas (rats) as we call them in Spain.

    On the other hand it seems to me a pro-Nazi forum.

    I advise other Spanish users to leave this forum, as they will be mistreated.

    Goodbye, keep raising cobwebs.

  25. #75
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    This is what happens when political and historical grudges are allowed to intrude into genetic, archaeological discussions.

    There are plenty of places to vent disdain and hatred if you really must. Just don't do it here, people. Please

    You may not believe it, Carlos, but I will miss your input on various matters.

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