How similar are Spaniards and Southern French people? Common ancestry?

Hi everyone, I wanted to ask about the similarity and accuracy of genetic biogeographical testing of geno 2.0 and how similar other programs/kits are to it?

I guess what I'm asking is if I take say an ancestry DNA test, will my results be more or less similar?

Additionally, if Spaniards did settle in the South of Sicily, likely soldiers, what time period would they have settled in for me to have close to 20% Spanish through my father's side?
 
Hi SS (I mean Skeptical Spaniard - just a little joke ! - couldn't help it !),

Have you tried to tranfer your Geno results to FTDNA ? I am no genetics expert - just another amateur like you, trying to understand - but before testing again with another lab, I'd try this transfer option first and foremost. I did it for people in my family who tested with Geno. Simple and quick. Again, I am not sure it works with Helix, but you should at least try to transfer.

FTDNA is not much more reliable than Geno. But the point is : once you have transferred, you can download your "raw data".

Those raw data can then be uploaded to quite a number of free apps on the internet (Gedmatch, Gencove, DNALand). None of them is perfect, but by comparing them all, you can get an idea of what's predominant in your genetic makeup.

Your DNA is what it is. Testing with another lab won't change it. Geno's data are OK. It is probably their interpretation that is either hasty, or "patchy". It also depends on the reference populations they have in store. That's why transferring would be a simple way of cross-examining their conclusions. Do give it a try. Good luck.
 
Hi SS (I mean Skeptical Spaniard - just a little joke ! - couldn't help it !),

Have you tried to tranfer your Geno results to FTDNA ? I am no genetics expert - just another amateur like you, trying to understand - but before testing again with another lab, I'd try this transfer option first and foremost. I did it for people in my family who tested with Geno. Simple and quick. Again, I am not sure it works with Helix, but you should at least try to transfer.

FTDNA is not much more reliable than Geno. But the point is : once you have transferred, you can download your "raw data".

Those raw data can then be uploaded to quite a number of free apps on the internet (Gedmatch, Gencove, DNALand). None of them is perfect, but by comparing them all, you can get an idea of what's predominant in your genetic makeup.

Your DNA is what it is. Testing with another lab won't change it. Geno's data are OK. It is probably their interpretation that is either hasty, or "patchy". It also depends on the reference populations they have in store. That's why transferring would be a simple way of cross-examining their conclusions. Do give it a try. Good luck.

Hi, thanks for the response, so anyway, I had taken the gene 2.0 test done by helix and unfortunately I can't transfer the direct results over to FTDNA.

I can download my raw data though, although I don't know of any service that is cross compatible with geno 2.0 helix.

Do you think that Geno 2.0's interpretation is hasty or messed up or is it likely it's accurate? And why would I be close to be 50% Southwest European and how does that relate to their body of evidence?

Additionally, what exactly is classified as Southwest European by geno 2.0's standards?
 
I don't know how to answer that, but just my 2 cents-you should do 23andme, seems to be what a lot of members here prefer including Angela. If it picks up a lot of Iberian from your Sicilian half, then you got some Spanish ancestry in there
 
I don't know how to answer that, but just my 2 cents-you should do 23andme, seems to be what a lot of members here prefer including Angela. If it picks up a lot of Iberian from your Sicilian half, then you got some Spanish ancestry in there

Well I'm a quarter Sicilian, a quarter Neapolitan and a quarter French (presumably from gascony). With that said, I'm assuming I have it coming from both my paternal and maternal sides, correct?

And do you know how recent that DNA must be for me to be 42% Southwestern european?


And lastly, of the DNA test, in order which are the best at interpreting your results and making an accurate assessment of your ethnicity?
 
Well I'm a quarter Sicilian, a quarter Neapolitan and a quarter French (presumably from gascony). With that said, I'm assuming I have it coming from both my paternal and maternal sides, correct?
And do you know how recent that DNA must be for me to be 42% Southwestern european?
And lastly, of the DNA test, in order which are the best at interpreting your results and making an accurate assessment of your ethnicity?
I think the key issue is for you to do some genealogical research on the other 1/4 of your mom’s side to specifically find out where her ancestry is from in France. I’ve seen Ancestry ethnicity estimates of Southwestern French score 70%-80% Iberian Peninsula. If she is more than 50% Gascon then you could easily inherit 42% just from her.
Another point I want to emphasize is that the Natgeo Helix test has no Western Europe category. They only have Northwestern which is basically north of the Loire River. Everything else for France gets assigned to Southwestern or South Central.
You might want to test with a company that has a Western Europe category such FTDNA with their “West and Central Europe” category or 23andMe with their “French and German” category to see how closely your French resembles Iberian. To show you how labels can be misleading let me reiterate my scores.
DNA Land (Similar Regions to Helix):
Northwestern 63%
Southwestern 31%
FTDNA:
West and Central 90%
Iberian 0%
23andMe:
Northwestern(Western): 86.1%
Broadly European(Central): 3.1%
Iberian 0.8%
Living DNA:
Great Britain (Northwestern) 63%
Rest is unassigned in Cautious Mode
 
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I don't know how to rank them, but I've heard more positive things about 23andme and other tests seem to have a lot of problems. I think the picture would be more clear if your dad tests.
 
I don't know how to rank them, but I've heard more positive things about 23andme and other tests seem to have a lot of problems. I think the picture would be more clear if your dad tests.

I would go with 23andMe as well. FTDNA does a good job with Western Europeans giving my French Canadian mom 99% West and Central Europe and my Belgian father 80% West and Central Europe and giving me 90% West and Central Europe. However, they do a poor job with Italians (my wife) giving inflated percentages for Iberian and Sephardic. Since his father is Southern Italian 23andMe is probably the best bet.
 
I am joining the discussion a bit late. The South French should be divided in at least 2 or 3 subgroups. The Gascons and Basques in the Southwest are the closest to the Spaniards, and particularly to the Basques and Navarrans. These people are all primarily descended from the ancient Vascones.

You can see on this map of ancient Iberian ancestry just how close they are:

23andMe_Iberian.png



The Provençals are closer to the North Italians than to the Spaniards. Provence was heavily colonised by the Romans and already had Greek colonies (Marseille, Nice) before that. The Languedoc in between Gascony and Provence is mixed Vascones and Greco-Roman, with also higher levels of Celtic/Gaulish and Germanic (Gothic and Frankish) than either Gascony or Provence. Languedoc is closer to Catalonia in Spain, and indeed southern Languedoc (Aude) and Roussillon is almost indistinguishable from coastal Catalan.
 
I am joining the discussion a bit late. The South French should be divided in at least 2 or 3 subgroups. The Gascons and Basques in the Southwest are the closest to the Spaniards, and particularly to the Basques and Navarrans. These people are all primarily descended from the ancient Vascones.

You can see on this map of ancient Iberian ancestry just how close they are:

23andMe_Iberian.png



The Provençals are closer to the North Italians than to the Spaniards. Provence was heavily colonised by the Romans and already had Greek colonies (Marseille, Nice) before that. The Languedoc in between Gascony and Provence is mixed Vascones and Greco-Roman, with also higher levels of Celtic/Gaulish and Germanic (Gothic and Frankish) than either Gascony or Provence. Languedoc is closer to Catalonia in Spain, and indeed southern Languedoc (Aude) and Roussillon is almost indistinguishable from coastal Catalan.

Excellent. Exactly right.

You can see the affiliation between Provence and surrounding areas with northern Italy as early as the Neolithic. Also, we see this from y Dna in places like Liguria and Piemonte, and from the recent paper on ancient Lombard dna which showed some of the samples were "French" like.

From the Reich book: just one component, but still informative, I think.
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I think the key issue is for you to do some genealogical research on the other 1/4 of your mom’s side to specifically find out where her ancestry is from in France. I’ve seen Ancestry ethnicity estimates of Southwestern French score 70%-80% Iberian Peninsula. If she is more than 50% Gascon then you could easily inherit 42% just from her.
Another point I want to emphasize is that the Natgeo Helix test has no Western Europe category. They only have Northwestern which is basically north of the Loire River. Everything else for France gets assigned to Southwestern or South Central.
You might want to test with a company that has a Western Europe category such FTDNA with their “West and Central Europe” category or 23andMe with their “French and German” category to see how closely your French resembles Iberian. To show you how labels can be misleading let me reiterate my scores.
DNA Land (Similar Regions to Helix):
Northwestern 63%
Southwestern 31%
FTDNA:
West and Central 90%
Iberian 0%
23andMe:
Northwestern(Western): 86.1%
Broadly European(Central): 3.1%
Iberian 0.8%
Living DNA:
Great Britain (Northwestern) 63%
Rest is unassigned in Cautious Mode

So to follow up on this issue, even if my father had substantial french ancestry, the ancestry would likely be coming from the south west of France near Spain - descendants of the Vascones?

Is that even accurate historically? I thought the French who inhabited Sicily mainly hailed from normandy, Anjou and Burgundy?

What explains the Spanish angle there in your opinion?

As far as my mother, that seems unlikely being that she's half Eastern European. So she can't be more than 50% from Southern France.
 
I am joining the discussion a bit late. The South French should be divided in at least 2 or 3 subgroups. The Gascons and Basques in the Southwest are the closest to the Spaniards, and particularly to the Basques and Navarrans. These people are all primarily descended from the ancient Vascones.

You can see on this map of ancient Iberian ancestry just how close they are:

23andMe_Iberian.png



The Provençals are closer to the North Italians than to the Spaniards. Provence was heavily colonised by the Romans and already had Greek colonies (Marseille, Nice) before that. The Languedoc in between Gascony and Provence is mixed Vascones and Greco-Roman, with also higher levels of Celtic/Gaulish and Germanic (Gothic and Frankish) than either Gascony or Provence. Languedoc is closer to Catalonia in Spain, and indeed southern Languedoc (Aude) and Roussillon is almost indistinguishable from coastal Catalan.

So for all intents and purposes, I'm mostly Iberian and therefore not all that genetically dissimilar from people who live in those areas?

As far as culturally and linguistically, are people from those areas more apt to identify with Iberian ancestry then French ancestry?
 
As far as culturally and linguistically, are people from those areas more apt to identify with Iberian ancestry then French ancestry?

If by those areas you mean South France, then of course not. Genetics is completely distinct from culture and language.
 
Hi, Skeptical.

Still skeptical, I see...
Well, three things :
Genetically : As said upthread, southern France and Iberia owing so much to Early Farmers, there is of course some proximity. Maciamo's map above makes it quite clear.
Linguistically : Spanish and French are both descended from Latin. So as a Frenchman who never did Spanish in school, I can't understand much Spanish when spoken, but I do understand a lot of what I read. The same goes for Portuguese; and Italian (which I did learn in school for a while though).
Culturally : well, I'd say I feel a kinship with our Spanish neighbors, but no more so than I do with Brits, Germans, Hungarians, Poles or other Europeans. (By the way, I am not too sure where that sense of kinship stops. I've had people here at home from very distant places and though we had very different backgrounds, I sometimes felt closer to them than to some of my next door neighbors).

I agree your results are surprising, for what they show and what they "forget" (the Levantine part). I am not sure you'll find answers here though. I'd suggest you test again, if you can't use your data on other apps. Maybe you could also do some genealogical searching, dig into the archives (eg, civil registration services). It's a lot of work, but it's also great fun - detective work, somehow. Good luck.
 
Hi, Skeptical.

Still skeptical, I see...
Well, three things :
Genetically : As said upthread, southern France and Iberia owing so much to Early Farmers, there is of course some proximity. Maciamo's map above makes it quite clear.
Linguistically : Spanish and French are both descended from Latin. So as a Frenchman who never did Spanish in school, I can't understand much Spanish when spoken, but I do understand a lot of what I read. The same goes for Portuguese; and Italian (which I did learn in school for a while though).
Culturally : well, I'd say I feel a kinship with our Spanish neighbors, but no more so than I do with Brits, Germans, Hungarians, Poles or other Europeans. (By the way, I am not too sure where that sense of kinship stops. I've had people here at home from very distant places and though we had very different backgrounds, I sometimes felt closer to them than to some of my next door neighbors).

I agree your results are surprising, for what they show and what they "forget" (the Levantine part). I am not sure you'll find answers here though. I'd suggest you test again, if you can't use your data on other apps. Maybe you could also do some genealogical searching, dig into the archives (eg, civil registration services). It's a lot of work, but it's also great fun - detective work, somehow. Good luck.
Yep even I feel kinship to all of France to be honest. We have a lot in common with each other and we are both latin (the north are trying too hard to Germanic but can I blame them??). So I understood your post. But still just like Spain/Italy there are different languages and cultures In France so maybe that's one of the reasons I feel close to them
 
Yep even I feel kinship to all of France to be honest. We have a lot in common with each other and we are both latin (the north are trying too hard to Germanic but can I blame them??). So I understood your post. But still just like Spain/Italy there are different languages and cultures In France so maybe that's one of the reasons I feel close to them

Well, it seems to me, although our French members would know better, that the French have pretty much stamped out the "regional" languages, except in in the Basque and Corsican areas.

It's not like Italy in that regard. In my experience there's a definite difference between south and north, but a lot of the local folk customs are gone. They're going everywhere, though.

Click to enlarge:

http://bostoniano.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/mappa-dialetti.png

mappa-dialetti.png
 
Well, it seems to me, although our French members would know better, that the French have pretty much stamped out the "regional" languages, except in in the Basque and Corsican areas.

It's not like Italy in that regard. In my experience there's a definite difference between south and north, but a lot of the local folk customs are gone. They're going everywhere, though.

Click to enlarge:

http://bostoniano.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/mappa-dialetti.png

mappa-dialetti.png

Wow... How did you manage to preserve so much diversity ? It makes me feel simply envious. I wish it had been the same here in France. Occitan dialects have been virtually erased by centralized, compulsory education. Only very old people in rural areas speak some occitan nowadays, and most of them imperfectly. I deplore it. My grandparents' language had a flavor of its own. It was as harsh as the lives they lived, and its mere phonology, in itself, "told a story".

Breton and Alsatian have been similarly affected, though to a lesser degree. Basque seems to fare slightly better, owing to strong connections with the larger Basque area in Spain. But the overall trend is towards uniformity. Which to me means impoverishment.
 
Wow... How did you manage to preserve so much diversity ? It makes me feel simply envious. I wish it had been the same here in France. Occitan dialects have been virtually erased by centralized, compulsory education. Only very old people in rural areas speak some occitan nowadays, and most of them imperfectly. I deplore it. My grandparents' language had a flavor of its own. It was as harsh as the lives they lived, and its mere phonology, in itself, "told a story".

Breton and Alsatian have been similarly affected, though to a lesser degree. Basque seems to fare slightly better, owing to strong connections with the larger Basque area in Spain. But the overall trend is towards uniformity. Which to me means impoverishment.

That's the trend even in Italy, despite the fact that the government recognizes a lot of "languages". It began with Mussolini, who like all nationalists believed it's easier to have a unified strong country if everyone speaks the same language. (That's why nationalists from all around Italy, beginning in the Middle Ages, pushed to have Tuscan as the "Italian" language.) He is the one who mandated that "Tuscan Italian" be taught in all the schools. The next step was the extremely large internal migration from south to north, strongest in areas in Northwest Italy in the beginning, where industrialization first took place. In order to speak to one another people turned to "standard" Tuscan Italian. One of the biggest influences, imo, was television. In order to reach the broadest audience, it was all in "standard" Italian.

In addition to geographical differences, there was also a "class" element. I don't speak the dialects of my own region, and even rather imperfectly understand them, because my father forbade anyone to speak it in front of me. He even tried to correct my pronunciation so it didn't sound so "local". It was quite a "thing" with him. When we came to America he would have me "perform" (recite poetry or pieces of prose) to show off my perfect, "pure" Italian. :) He thought, as you say, that the dialects were harsh, and uneducated, and in addition he was a fervent nationalist of the Mazzini school.

Anyway, the map is misleading in some ways. In the south, people still speak a lot of dialect. It's a balancing act: with people they don't know they start out with standard Italian, they also speak it in formal settings, and again, the more educated the person the more likely they are not to speak the dialect. In the Veneto, with its long continuity as a separate kingdom, they much more often speak their dialect among themselves, even if they're relatively educated. In my own area, the dialects are virtually gone. There's been a recent push to bring them back a bit, with street signs appearing in both "languages", and a few hours a week devoted to dialect in school, but imo it's not coming back: too much immigration. It's also just plain ineffficient for communicating. In the last few years a very popular series was done about Neapolitan organized crime called "Gomorrah". It had to be broadcast with Italian subtitles. :) In tv series like Montalbano, they have only supporting, minor characters speak in Sicilian dialects, and even then it's Italian influenced, or it wouldn't have the audience they wanted.

Anyway, as to why so much diversity in language? Same reason(s) there's so much diversity in food and customs. Partly it's geography, partly it's different political systems for so many hundreds of years, but I think partly we just don't like change, and we're inordinately attached to our own local "ways". It's called "campanilismo": attachment to and identification to only the area within sound of our own church bells. :) It has both negatives and positives, like everything else in life, and I'm "guilty" of it too, if not in regard to language.
 
That’s what happens after building so many Walls.
They “Built those Walls” lol. [emoji4]
They Kept the locals in and the outsiders out, or at least they tried.
 
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The small or small minority languages that have the opportunity act the same or worse than the big ones, and use their minority languages in their territories as a weapon of segregation, xenophobia and discrimination, and if they have not yet done so, it is because they have not had the opportunity, the opportune conditions to carry it out, but they would end up doing it as I said at the least opportunity they had.
 

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