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Thread: How much history did Christianity destroy?

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    How much history did Christianity destroy?

    I came across this:

    St. Augustine of Hippo writes in the City of God (written AD 413–426):


    "Let us omit the conjectures of men who know not what they say, when they speak of the nature and origin of the human race...They are deceived by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousands of years, though reckoning by the sacred writings we find that not 6,000 years have passed. (City of God 12:10).

    I wonder what these "documents" he is referring to were. I wonder if we will ever know. I wonder how many such documents were destroyed.
    I find his reasoning even more revealing, that he disproved them by reckoning with the "sacred writings."


    Just imagine how much history these people must have destroyed. Who knows how much documents and artefacts were totally annihilated in the early
    days of Christianity. If they destroyed their own gospels that they considered heretical or Gnostic, imagine how they must have seen non christian historical documents.



    Reminds me quite a bit of the Stalinist and Maoist approach to centralized power and the conscious erasure of history.

    In China the Maoists had something called the "Four Olds Campaign"

    LINK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds

    "Old Customs, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old Ideas. One of the stated goals of the Cultural Revolution in the People's Republic of China was to bring an end to the Four Olds."



    To do this they demanded the destruction of old monuments, texts, artefacts, etc. They even killed people that tried to hide artefacts and the such.







    Also, this puts doubt on the actually existing historical documents that were preserved.

    The way Stalin and the USSR presented history was totally
    suited to the USSR political motivations at the time, and they redacted and added things to their textbooks on subjects like the french revolution,
    paris commune, feudalism, etc in a conscious manner. Its most likely that the early churches would have done this of course.



    Even democracies today destroy documents of crimes they committed because they can't face them. I seriously doubt the churches of the first millenium
    would have been better.

    Example: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ast-government
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    We should be reminded from time to time, what insecurity, intolerance and haltered can do.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    I do not understand the question well, but I understand that there is a dialectic between what the human being is (which is basically selfish) and the Gospels that we can summarize as love for others, in this dialectic sometimes triumphs the pure and hard egoism of the human being and other times, the least, the evolution that the gospels provide of love to others.


    I do not know if this answers your question.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    I do not understand the question well




    I just came across that quote from Augustine and was quite shocked.

    I guess the question was more speculative, wondering about what those historical documents he wanted "ommitted"
    and how this opens all types of questions about "unkown unkowns" i.e. things we don't even know that we don't know.

    In this case, the erasure of historical information, or as you call it, the triumphs of egoism.

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    Christianity shows us what is good and this is perfectly understood, then the human being does and undoes as he pleases.


    But hey, it is not bad to have a north, although later on you do the opposite.

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    The least tolerant people I've ever met are atheists. Second are extreme left wing people.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    "Some of the saints listed above are chiefly remembered for their fearless acts of destroying idols"


    LINK: https://iconreader.wordpress.com/201...igious-images/



    Saint George topples the pagan idols


    St Abraham uses staff to destroy the idol of Veles

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    Being intolerant or tolerant is independent of religious or political beliefs, I already have a certain age and in this politics I believe that in any party you find everything and the same happens with atheism or not atheism.


    I personally believe in a nation called Spain, but of course I understand that there are people who consider themselves Basque simply or Catalans.


    I am from Murcia, in a part of Murcia Valenciano is currently spoken, it seems that I included Valenciano in Cartagena historically because of the repopulations, I have had relatives who have emigrated to Catalua, Valencia, Alicante, etc., but we are all Iberian and Spaniards, if the parents of the homeland who are in the north begin to give up their children badly we are going.


    Spain is a great nation and nobody has the right to humiliate it, it is not more than anyone, but less so.


    I am Catholic, apostolic, Roman, I am not very practicing, I understand and tolerate the Protestant, Orthodox or other religious or atheist world but I consider myself that way, we have grown up in this religion and we have sucked and we have much to thank.
    Last edited by ROS; 20-03-18 at 06:08.

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    [CITA = Johane Derite; 535819] " Algunos de los santos mencionados anteriormente son principalmente recordados por sus intrpidos actos de destruccin de dolos"


    ENLACE: https://iconreader.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/saints-who-destroyed- imgenes religiosas /



    San Jorge derrota a los dolos paganos


    San Abraham usa personal para destruir el dolo de Veles
    [/CITAR]

    Remember the above the human being is egoist and this leads to nationalism and this leads to racism, this is the nature of the human being, in contrast is the summary message of the Gospels "love one another as I have loved"

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    Well, he was definitely wrong, but apparently also were the documents that he is criticizing in that passage if you read that in its entirety and carefully:

    They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000 years have yet passed. And, not to spend many words in exposing the baselessness of these documents, in which so many thousands of years are accounted for, nor in proving that their authorities are totally inadequate, let me cite only that letter which Alexander the Great wrote to his mother Olympias, giving her the narrative he had from an Egyptian priest, which he had extracted from their sacred archives, and which gave an account of kingdoms mentioned also by the Greek historians. In this letter of Alexander's a term of upwards of 5000 years is assigned to the kingdom of Assyria; while in the Greek history only 1300 years are reckoned from the reign of Bel himself, whom both Greek and Egyptian agree in counting the first king of Assyria. Then to the empire of the Persians and Macedonians this Egyptian assigned more than 8000 years, counting to the time of Alexander, to whom he was speaking; while among the Greeks, 485 years are assigned to the Macedonians down to the death of Alexander, and to the Persians 233 years, reckoning to the termination of his conquests.

    Egypt as one unified state definitely did not have more than 8,000 years, and Assyria of course didn't have 5,000 years by the time of Augustine. So, it doesn't seem like those documents were real historic documents, but rather other wild speculations about the ancient history not very unlike the wrong statements given by Augustine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The least tolerant people I've ever met are atheists. Second are extreme left wing people.
    Like Maciamo, Sparkey, Taranis, LeBrok, IronHorse, Maleth, ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Like Maciamo, Sparkey, Taranis, LeBrok, IronHorse, Maleth, ...
    Extremely intolerant of religious belief and believers? Yes, unfortunately I believe so.

    Wonderful in all other respects, however. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Like Maciamo, Sparkey, Taranis, LeBrok, IronHorse, Maleth, ...
    IronHorse

    The thing is, where I'm from its dangerous to criticize religion in public, in our case because extreme religious people take control, I don't know if this is or was the case whenever religious people took control.

    I know, however, that there is no direct relationship between the two, and religious people can be quite tolerant, LeBrok for example :) and a friend of mine here in Saudi.

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    just think to be a polytheist

    in a foundamental monotheistic world
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    IronHorse

    The thing is, where I'm from its dangerous to criticize religion in public, in our case because extreme religious people take control, I don't know if this is or was the case whenever religious people took control.

    I know, however, that there is no direct relationship between the two, and religious people can be quite tolerant, LeBrok for example :) and a friend of mine here in Saudi.
    LeBroc is an atheist, as is everyone else in his list. :)

    I can tell you that I have never in my life, throughout the years of my Catholic school education or in the years following before I "lost my faith", heard vituperation against agnostics and atheists from priests, nuns, brothers and sisters, or lay people similar to that which comes from atheists like Bill Maher, for example.

    Most "religious" people have had their own doubts and totally understand why other people might come to believe in no divine agency whatsoever. They don't, in my experience, question the intellect or the reasoning ability or the sanity or the emotional make up of those who don't believe in any god. The latter are usually the stock in trade of what atheists say about religious people of any stripe, well, other than about Muslims, but that's a different discussion.

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    I'll admit I was horrible to religious people as a teenager and I remember shouting vulgar insults at groups attending religious events in public (but I'll also admit that I was one of the most disrespectful vulgar little brat on the face of the earth and was sent to the principal almost every day in early elementary school due to my mouth....but I wasn't knocking religion that early on in life, it was simply bodily and other childish insults and forms of vulgarity).

    These days, I'm extremely tolerant of those who believe strongly in the divine and I even have a few friends who are completely devout Catholics and I never mocked them once, nor do I see myself doing so.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    LeBroc is an atheist, as is everyone else in his list. :)

    I can tell you that I have never in my life, throughout the years of my Catholic school education or in the years following before I "lost my faith", heard vituperation against agnostics and atheists from priests, nuns, brothers and sisters, or lay people similar to that which comes from atheists like Bill Maher, for example.

    Most "religious" people have had their own doubts and totally understand why other people might come to believe in no divine agency whatsoever. They don't, in my experience, question the intellect or the reasoning ability or the sanity or the emotional make up of those who don't believe in any god. The latter are usually the stock in trade of what atheists say about religious people of any stripe, well, other than about Muslims, but that's a different discussion.
    I thought LeBrok was a Catholic, I misunderstood a reference in some other thread, sorry LeBrok.

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    2-3 generations ago, the Catholic Church was still quite powefull and dominant here and very paternalistic, trying to controll everybodies mind and habits
    my parents generation got liberated from that, and there is some resentment about the way the church have ruled all these generations, that is very natural
    and sometimes it is frightening to see all those people conditioned and biassed by Islam coming in who are so convinced about there own beliefs and with whom reasoning seems very difficult

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    I thought LeBrok was a Catholic, I misunderstood a reference in some other thread, sorry LeBrok.
    yes, you must have missed something
    look at my last post, he is someone of the generation with the resentment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    LeBroc is an atheist, as is everyone else in his list. :)

    I can tell you that I have never in my life, throughout the years of my Catholic school education or in the years following before I "lost my faith", heard vituperation against agnostics and atheists from priests, nuns, brothers and sisters, or lay people similar to that which comes from atheists like Bill Maher, for example.

    Most "religious" people have had their own doubts and totally understand why other people might come to believe in no divine agency whatsoever. They don't, in my experience, question the intellect or the reasoning ability or the sanity or the emotional make up of those who don't believe in any god. The latter are usually the stock in trade of what atheists say about religious people of any stripe, well, other than about Muslims, but that's a different discussion.
    I agree, Angela. In my experience (of course limited to the internet world and the social reality of Brazil), the older atheists and agnostics are usually very low-profile and tolerant, they simply do not believe, that's all, but they couldn't care less about whether you believe in some religion or not. But the majority of the younger (< 45) generations of atheists are simply awful, sorry if I have to say that. They're the ones that sound more close to the evangelical radicals we have here, in that there is a constant, relentless need to preach loudly and often arrogantly - there is always the "stupid, insane, weak theists" cardboard - about their atheism and criticize other beliefs (yes, being an atheists is also a kind of personal conviction that one holds to be true even though there is no empirical proof, that is, epistemologically it is a personal belief, not much more than that). For people who have no faith and rely on evidences to form their opinions, I find it baffling that younger atheists are often soooooo self-confident and arrogant about what they believe and, if the only thing that unites them is simply a lack of belief in god/gods, it's at least a bit weird to see such a devoted proselytism that not even most religious people are willing to do.

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    How much history did Christianity destroy?

    imo The Title of this Thread has an opinionated and leading bias.
    should have been: “How Much History did Religion Destroy”
    Many religions are responsible for the eradication of knowledge, books, monuments, history.
    Extremist Religious Groups are still Physically Destroying, and Bombing the History of Humanity, and They are Not Christians.
    The extreme left is trying to remove statues and monuments in the United States too.
    🕷️

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    2-3 generations ago, the Catholic Church was still quite powefull and dominant here and very paternalistic, trying to controll everybodies mind and habits
    my parents generation got liberated from that, and there is some resentment about the way the church have ruled all these generations, that is very natural
    and sometimes it is frightening to see all those people conditioned and biassed by Islam coming in who are so convinced about there own beliefs and with whom reasoning seems very difficult

    A lot of it in Europe was indeed "political". My father was very "anti-clerical". Like a lot of Italian men he stopped attending church when he was confirmed. That caused me a lot of anguish when I was young because I was a very religious little girl. When I wanted, at the age of 12-14 or so, to be a Carmelite I thought he'd have a heart attack. :) Then I discovered boys and gave him different worries.

    Still, if you had asked him, he would have said he believed in God and was a Catholic. It's something my American friends don't understand.

    Things are totally different in the U.S. because the Church has never held political power. It makes it easier to be religious, if you get what I mean, because there's not so much baggage from the past.

    There's still resentment, however, but the cause is different. It's usually because of the rules controlling sexuality (especially homosexuality), divorce, contraception, etc. Meanwhile, while people weren't looking because they are now out of the church and don't even speak to people who are still "in", the emphasis changed in the church. No priest is going to tell you it's a sin to use contraception, the rules for annulment are so loose that it's almost like divorce, the only real "sticking" point is the practice of homosexuality and abortion. I don't think the latter will ever change.

    There's an awful lot of what we call "cafeteria style" Catholics. They "choose" which rules they will take seriously: yes to the central tenants of the faith, and no to the sort of "lifestyle" rules with which they disagree.

    I'm of two minds whether the Church is being smart in loosening some of these rules, although I approve of the end results. Certain people would be satisfied with nothing less than a total acceptance of all kinds of sexual expression, third term abortions, etc. Even then, I think it's questionable whether they would come back to the church. The proof is what has happened to the "mainstream", liberal, Protestant congregations, which are disappearing. The growth is in the conservative Protestant churches.

    Among the very conservative Catholics, of whom I know a few, there are those who believe in the "Faithful Remnant" evolution or de-evolution of the Church, similar to what happened with the Hebrews. The true believers will remain, and the rest will fall away. I think that's probably what will happen.

    Another phenomenon is that very conservative Catholics sometimes become Evangelical Protestant Christians because the Church has gotten too "soft".

    As to the saints listed above, they are not the saints who are or were "in" people's lives in the modern era, if that makes sense. When I was growing up it was Francis of Assisi, St. Therese, the Little Flower, St. Joseph, maybe St. Bernadette, St. Jude, Mary, of course, especially through her appearances at Lourdes, Fatima and "Yugoslavia".

    The only questionable one, imo, is St. Anthony of Padua, who was actually Portuguese, a disciple of St. Francis. He was very popular with older Italians. I think he's still popular in the Portuguese and Spanish speaking world. All that was emphasized to us was his piety, humility, and his love of the Christ Child. Later on, however, I discovered that he did a lot of preaching against the Italian "Cathars". Francis should have stuck to his original instinct to be suspicious of oratory and too much intellectualization of faith. That's apart from the fact that I think the Cathar "religion" was a crock.

    This is what devotion to St. Francis was all about:

    "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
    Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
    Where there is offense, let me bring pardon.
    Where there is discord, let me bring union.
    Where there is error, let me bring truth.
    Where there is doubt, let me bring faith.
    Where there is despair, let me bring hope.
    Where there is darkness, let me bring your light.
    Where there is sadness, let me bring joy.
    O Master, let me not seek as much
    to be consoled as to console,
    to be understood as to understand,
    to be loved as to love,
    for it is in giving that one receives,
    it is in self-forgetting that one finds,
    it is in pardoning that one is pardoned,
    it is in dying that one is raised to eternal life."

    Prayer to St. Jude, also a biggie when I was growing up, and still now. Danny Thomas named his hospital for children after him.

    Most holy Apostle, Saint Jude Thaddeus, friend of Jesus, I place myself in your care at this difficult time. Help me know that I need not face my troubles alone. Please join me in my need, asking God to send me: consolation in my sorrow, courage in my fear, and healing in the midst of my suffering. Ask our loving Lord to fill me with the grace to accept whatever may lie ahead for me and my loved ones, and to strengthen my faith in God's healing powers. Thank you, Saint Jude Thaddeus, for the promise of hope you hold out to all who believe, and inspire me to give this gift of hope to others as it has been given to me.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    it is not only History,
    but also science

    for example how many mathematicians, were lost,
    how many leathers palimpsista become books for prayers,
    if the ancient word had produced antikythera mechanism with such accuracy, and tottaly different aproach (eclipse can be the route of a moving circle center, not a 2 center shape)
    and found that steam power can move tones of stone, Ηρων Heron of Alexandreia, milleniums before james Watt,
    and dare to write down βελοποιικα Balistic science
    think what humanity has lost, in science,
    and how much long took to regain it.

    from Heron to James Watt is 1650 years about.
    from heron to Alhacen is about 1000 years.

    The 'restart' of scientif speach away from religious criteria
    took more than a millenium,
    and just consider were the 'humanity' is moving and achieved the last 300 years,

    Yet some thinks are still under the morale of humans, not religion,
    and is needed so.
    bur IS MOVING

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    IronHorse

    The thing is, where I'm from its dangerous to criticize religion in public, in our case because extreme religious people take control, I don't know if this is or was the case whenever religious people took control.

    I know, however, that there is no direct relationship between the two, and religious people can be quite tolerant, LeBrok for example :) and a friend of mine here in Saudi.

    I agree with you,
    In Islamic world the religious 'casta' is very high,
    and not only high, but also believe that they know everything,
    only they, can explain phenomena,
    they consider them shelves Doctors mechanics etc etc,

    the most stupid thing I heard the last years
    is that driving affects the woman ovaries,
    and offcourse that was not taken serious,
    so women can drive at Arab world.

    Do not worry, we had such 'casta' in Europe too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I agree with you,
    In Islamic world the religious 'casta' is very high,
    and not only high, but also believe that they know everything,
    only they, can explain phenomena,
    they consider them shelves Doctors mechanics etc etc,
    the most stupid thing I heard the last years
    is that driving affects the woman ovaries,
    and offcourse that was not taken serious,
    so women can drive at Arab world.
    Do not worry, we had such 'casta' in Europe too.
    some also believe female circumsision protects the male who has sex with her from diseases

    but the worst is that many despise the kuffar, the non-Muslims
    they believe they are superior for being Muslim

    and they see 'blasphemy' as a serious crime

    this preacher at least tries to get things straight :


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