Is race just a social construct?

We had discussed this in other threads, the alleles for blue eyes, fair skin and blonde hair where present in Europe before steppe. It is impossible to explain blondism with Yamnaya in northern Europe, only21% in Swedes carry rs35264875 TT blonde alleles from steppe.
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Yamnaya people did not have blonde hair, while Paleolithic Scandinavians were already blonde and darker-skinned compared to modern Scandinavians. The Yamnaya introduced light-skin and lactose persistence genes to northern Europe. WHGs in Scandinavia did not carry SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 until the arrival of the Yamnaya of EHG ancestry.

Scandinavian hunter-gatherers (SHGs) are a mixture of the “western hunter-gatherers” (WHGs) from western and southern Europe and the “eastern hunter-gatherers” (EHGs) from northeastern and eastern Europe. WHGs appeared in Scandinavia around 11,000 BP without SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, which are associated with skin pigmentation, while WHGs were blue-eyed with OCA2/HERC2, which is associated with eye pigmentation.

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Some Yamnaya carried blonde alleles, but that doesn't mean that they where all blonde.

Mesolithic Scandinavians also had fair skin alleles and dark ones, it depends on the samples and population. Light skin alleles where also present in some Anatolian farmer samples.

Light hair causing alleles:

rs3829241 A is found in:

Anatolia HG
Early Balkan Neolithic
EHG
Ertebolle
Globular Amphora
Early Neolithic Greece
Italy Mesolithic
Linear Pottery
Maglemose
Pitted Ware
Ukraine Mesolithic
Villabruna

rs35264875 T is found in:

Yamnaya

rs12821256 C is found in:

Ukraine Mesolithic

rs1393350 A is found in:

Cardial Pottery
Linear Pottery

Lactose tolerance is likely from Funnel Beakers or other near cultures. There is one tolerant sample from Gökhem in Sweden (Gökhem2). The person is heterozygote for rs4988235 GA.
 
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Riverman said:
Well, there are different levels of biological and racial differences, like species, subspecies and varieties or types. Its simple, there is not always some sort of dichotomy. Like if people like Barack Obama or Halle Berry claim they are "black", they obviously aren't "only black" if that term would mean Subsaharan African. The father of Barack Obama was, however, and he himself is mixed race and might identify with the African American ethnicity, which, in the local American context, being used to refer to itself as "black".
Its a prime example of when "race" truly becomes a "social construct": When the biological and socio-cultural identification being decoupled from each other.
Of course you are right about when someone mixed could be put in any "pure" category. The question is whether that's even necessary? In fact in many such instances going down to the individual makes sense again, because like North Africans, being obviously more West Eurasian than anything, without being "genetially pure". One can still distinguish the ancient ingredients.

Like Jovialis said: These are ingredients, whether one is pure or not. Its the obsession with purity which makes things absurd. If "a single drop" can make all the difference. That's in fact an American problem. In Brazil for example, there were and still are many categories for all kind of mixed individuals from different backgrounds. Even in South Afria there wasn't just "white & black", but in the USA, for quite some time, there was this strange dichotomy even for obviously mixed people. Blame it on the Jim Crow laws that Americans being so obsessed about purity and confusing biological reality with social constructs. Don't blame nature or natural sciences, not the present and not even (most of) the old anthropological one. Its wasn't studied anthropologists, usually, which were that obsessed with purity, even if they used ideal types for their theories.

We can define WHG ancestry genetically, and we can still determine where it survived, to which people it spread. Does it really matter that it doesn't exist in a "pure form" any longer? It still makes a difference for people to have this component and without these forager ancestors Europeans would not exist the way they do.
Same applies to Neandertal admixture, if we assume (what's very likely), that the hybridisation event was real. We can define Neandertal admixture, we can assess its importance for modern populations and how it influenced their evolution, even though pure Neandertals no longer exist for tens of thousands of years.

If you don't define the ingredients, you can't understand the processes involved to shape modern populations, dead or living individuals, and the genetic and phenotypical profile observable and measurable. It doesn't matter whether a person is pure or not. Every individual has its own genetic make up based on ancient or more modern populations. Even if they crossed each others path more than once, mixed more than once at different times, there is still a traceable and observable gene flow and ancestral make up for every population or individual.
Without defining the most important components and categories, things get just fuzzy and more amateurish. People still try to define and describe "racial" differences, even if they lack the proper terms, they just get more subjective and worse at it.
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The difference between the US and Brasil you have described is a perfect illustration that race is a social construct. Yes there are genetic differences between and within populations. But the act of classification is subjective, is a social matter. Not a matter of the 'law of gravity'. If so there would have been no differences between the US and Brasil. It's not "given" it is "created" (where are the limits). So not objective.

And I guess it's no coincidence that the reverse is also true: those classifiers are mostly (social) pigeonholing types...

I personally I'm more interested in ancestry and specific ancestry history. Contrary to race, ancestry is not about categorizing but more about unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population.
 
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Angela said:
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I don't think it would even occur to them to make a Southern European comment. You forget how many whole or part Southern Italians not only live in the U.S. but have become prominent and completely accepted. It's a different world from Europe. I've never in my life in the U.S. been belittled or attacked for my ethnicity, but it happened in Switzerland, and in Germany, places I will never again visit and whose products I will under no circumstances buy.
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Angela said:
Indeed. That's why I thought I was being polite in not using English to ask for a stamp but instead used Italian, you know, given it's one of the NATIONAL languages of Switzerland.

Instead, that was a big NO, NO. Can't ever use anything but Swiss Dutch in that town, certainly not Italian. When my aunt explained later (the phone having been buzzing all afternoon) the sexualized invective he used on me, a fourteen year old girl, I wanted to go back the next day and punch him. The town is Liestal, in case anyone is wondering, right near Zurich. Never been back, or to Switzerland in general. When my aunt and my cousin and her Swiss German husband want to see me they come to Italy. I never forgive or forget.

In Germany it was some sort of customs official who had been called over. Probably thought my husband was a Turk. :) That time my husband almost decked him. The guard thought better of his lack of civility when my husband stood up and got a little too close for comfort given my husband is over six feet and at that point was a gym rat carrying 200 + pounds of sheer muscle on him. They don't make members of the Master Race the way they used to...
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Allow me, a foreigner that lives in Switzerland since 2005 and who in the meanwhile got a Swiss citizenship, to comment on this. You must be traumatized by the incident and I'm sincerely sorry for what happened to you. I hope you'll agree that something like this could happen basically anywhere. No country has a lack of idiots, right?

I'm writing this only for the forum members that could get a wrong picture of Switzerland, based on your strongly biased and unfair statements. For the sake of the truth and facts, I'll add this:

1. You have clearly presented Switzerland as a chauvinist (a more suitable adjective than a "rasist") country. And you give the example of U.S. as an opposite example where the Italians are well integrated. As a matter of fact, 40% of the Swiss population has an immigration background. See for yourself:

https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/hom...igration-integration/by-migration-status.html

The Italians hold one of the biggest shares and they are very well integrated as well as the numerous Portuguese, Germans, Spanish, folks from the Balkans, Turks, British, Asians, Africans or other. In my area close to Zürich, there are 120 different nationalities among roughly 30'000 people. My own experience is only my own, but I can assure you that as a "Yugo" I'm more than well accepted. I don't earn less than genuine Swiss and my background was never ever a issue despite having a strong foreign accent which I can't hide. I've worked from Zürich to Berne and this applies to every place I've been. I worked and I am working with many Italian colleagues and bosses too.

2. Italian is one of the national languages of Switzerland, that is true. It was your poor judgement, Angela to address someone in the German part in Italian. Having 4 national languages makes people around the world to think that all Swiss speak indeed all 4 languages. That is a very wide misconception. In the German part they speak mostly only German (some learn FR or IT in the school but their level is mostly basic), in the French part they speak French (some of them speak Swiss German, closer to the Swiss German border) and we have the same in Italian part, in the only Italian speaking canton - Ticino. Round 60'000 people in Grisons use Rhaeto-Romanic on daily basis (beside CH German). Angela, you were only 14, you couldn't know that. But you should know better now and you should stop living in that trauma of yours. If you don't want to - don't. Just don't bash one of the most inclusive and democratic countries in the world in front of the whole forum. This is clearly a narcissistic behaviour.

3. A decision not to visit or buy anything from Switzerland is just not rational. Many of those products are produced and sold by those 40% people of foreign background. What makes Switzerland economically strong, are the middle and small enterprises, were the mentioned 40% play a significant role. They are very often the entrepreneurs or they work there for their living. Think about who are you "punishing".

4. Liestal isn't close to Zürich but to Basel, close to German and French border. A region that is very proud of it's multiculturalism.

5. Your comment and the language on the episode with the German customs is appropriate for a teenage, not for a moderator on a forum. To offend a whole nation with a vicious remark "Master Race" based on an individual case, where you only have your own subjective assumptions "he probably thought my husband was a Turk"? Are you serious? And then the "my husband is stronger then you" remark? That's kindergarten level.

Angela, you are a chauvinist, are you aware of it? You don't like the Germans and you see the whole nation as nazis. One old fart gives you a hard time and you have the whole Switzerland on your black list. The customs officer "probably thought your husband was a Turk" and "They don't make members of the Master Race the way they used to..."? How should one read this?

If I were a moderator, I would kindly warn you to be cautious...

Don't "ever forgive or forget"...
 
^^ How DARE you pop up on a site to which I have contributed for twelve years and presume to lecture me on matters of which you know NOTHING? That goes for the members who gave you upvotes as well.

For your information I judge each individual AS an individual. If I find they have integrity, compassion, kindness and a sense of humor, I like them. If they don't, I don't. I don't care if they're white, black, or purple polka-dotted or what nationality or religion they profess.

However, I have a right to visit countries which don't bring back traumatic memories and where, instead, I have always been treated well.

For your information, during the 1960s and 1970s Switzerland experienced a period of anti-immigration and particularly anti-Italian feeling, resulting, among other cases, in the beating death of an Italian immigrant.

Some history for you which I guess they didn't teach you in citizenship classes...

"The Swiss Democrats (German: Schweizer Demokraten; French: Démocrates Suisses; Italian: Democratici Svizzeri; Romansh: Democrats Svizers) are a nationalist[1] political party in Switzerland. It was called the National Action against the Alienation of the People and the Home (German: Nationale Aktion gegen Überfremdung von Volk und Heimat; NA) until 1977 and the National Action for People and Home (German: Nationale Aktion für Volk und Heimat) until 1990, when it was renamed to its current name.[2]


The Nationale Aktion was originally a far-right xenophobic movement pursuing an anti-immigration agenda, founded in 1961.[2] The party "emerged as a reaction to the influx of foreign workers," particularly Italians, during this time.[2] The party submitted several popular initiatives that supported reduced immigration, most notably one in June 1970 that narrowly failed.[2] Its first representative in the National Council was James Schwarzenbach, who was first elected in 1967.[2]

Schwarzenbach was a member of the Swiss National Council representing the National Action in the legislature between 1967 and 1971. Schwarzenbach's Republican Movement originated as a split of National Action in 1971, and it lasted until its dissolution in 1989.
Schwarzenbach is chiefly known for his initiative on Überfremdung ("excess of foreigners") that was put to the vote in June 1970. The referendum had a record turnout (75%), with 45% of the votes supporting Schwarzenbach's proposal. The proposal, if accepted, would have meant that the Swiss government had to limit foreign workers to Switzerland to 10%, which then would mean the deportation of up to 300,000 foreigners over 4 years. Although not enacted, the referendum did cause the number of available work-permits to be lowered.[3] Xenophobia in Switzerland at the time was chiefly directed against Italian migrant workers, whose number had increased from 300,000 to over 1 million during the economic surge after World War II between 1950 and 1970.
Xenophobia decreased in the later 1970s as with slackening economy nearly as many migrant workers as had been targeted by the Schwarzenbach initiative lost their jobs and left Switzerland, raising its head again in the mid-1990s, this time targeting Ausländerkriminalität ("foreigner delinquency"). In this period, the xenophobic sentiment was addressed by populist propaganda of the Swiss People's Party (SVP), with Schwarzenbach's erstwhile secretary Ulrich Schlüer pursuing his former employer's politics within the ranks of the SVP."

You want to tell me again that xenophobic feelings weren't rampant in Switzerland during that time?

Now, as to Germans, I would never say I don't like them as a nationality. I don't make generalizations like that about any group. I've also known too many wonderful Americans of all or mostly German descent to ever even contemplate such a thing.

I have my issues with Germany, mostly stemming from the fact that I, along with a large group of Italians, worked for almost two decades trying to get Wehrmacht and SS personnel who committed atrocities in Italy extradited for trial in our courts, all to no avail. They have either already or will die peacefully in their beds of old age.

I also resent those Germans I remember from childhood who had been part of the occupying force in Italy and treated us brutally who then came back to Italy with their families and expected to be warmly welcomed.

Just in general I believe the De-Nazification process in Germany was a charade. The Allies, faced with a threat from the Soviets, and needing to get Germany back on its feet for that contest, let thousands and thousands of people involved in mass murder get away with it. Only the very top leaders ever paid a price for what they did.

I also don't like the way Turks in their country were treated although I believe that things are better now than they were a few decades ago. Hell, even Italians were treated like crap in Germany, and don't presume to tell me it isn't so; I know too many Italians who worked there and left because of it, as many left Switzerland.

Now, most countries have racist incidents in their past, certainly in the U.S., and indeed even against Italians. The largest mass lynching in U.S. history was against Italian immigrants in New Orleans. There was also the Sacco and Vanzetti case, which involved two Italian Socialists. However, those occurred far, far before I was even born.

Nothing like that has ever, and I mean ever happened to me or any of my family members no matter where we are in the U.S.

Now, I've been quiet while some of you have vented your spleen against me, but I've had enough.

Any more insults, from ANYBODY, and there will be consequences.

Also, stick to the FREAKING topic, such as it is, or the posts will be deleted.

Ed. The point of this post was to show that Mr. Don_Joe was completely incorrect that Switzerland had an exemplary record concerning its treatment of Italian migrants. It didn't.

The second part of the post was to explain that contrary to his insults and those of others I have no animus toward German people. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Germany as a country does. That shouldn't be difficult to understand, as the site is full of posts disparaging the U.S. for various actions, while the posters assure us they don't hate AMERICANS.

 
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This thread has a topic. Stick to it or I will delete the entire thread.
 
Angela, I request kindly for the 2nd time, and don't delete my post again, please delete my account. I can't find this option myself, if there is one, please give me a hint. I'm done with this site, there's nothing more for me to learn or discuss here. Thank you.
 
don_joe said:
Angela, I request kindly for the 2nd time, and don't delete my post again, please delete my account. I can't find this option myself, if there is one, please give me a hint. I'm done with this site, there's nothing more for me to learn or discuss here. Thank you.
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There IS no option to DELETE an account. You don't want to post, don't post. You don't want to come here to read content, don't. What point do you think you're making by deleting your account? You think you'll hurt our feelings? You have delusions of grandeur, buddy. Or do you think someone is going to go looking for a list of registered members to find your pseudonym?

Also, enough with the drama. You could have sent me a PM but you wanted to make your big exit and hurl your final insult. Therefore, I'll return the favor. I gave up turning the other cheek to insults decades ago.

You've never contributed here so we won't be heartbroken to be missing some pearls of wisdom.

You're the one who will be missing out. If you knew one percent of what you think you know you'd understand that we've been correct here in our interpretations of population genetics more often than any other site on the internet, with the possible exception of Razib Khan's input, so by all means go listen to the racists on anthrogenica or theapricity or stormfront or wherever else, and wallow in your ignorance.
 
Angela said:
There IS no option to DELETE an account. You don't want to post, don't post. You don't want to come here to read content, don't. What point do you think you're making by deleting your account? You think you'll hurt our feelings? You have delusions of grandeur, buddy. Or do you think someone is going to go looking for a list of registered members to find your pseudonym?

Also, enough with the drama. You could have sent me a PM but you wanted to make your big exit and hurl your final insult. Therefore, I'll return the favor. I gave up turning the other cheek to insults decades ago.

You've never contributed here so we won't be heartbroken to be missing some pearls of wisdom.

You're the one who will be missing out. If you knew one percent of what you think you know you'd understand that we've been correct here in our interpretations of population genetics more often than any other site on the internet, with the possible exception of Razib Khan's input, so by all means go listen to the racists on anthrogenica or theapricity or stormfront or wherever else, and wallow in your ignorance.
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No Angela, nice imagination and a brilliant mastermind. But I just don't want to be a part of this place anymore. That's all.
 
don_joe said:
No Angela, nice imagination and a brilliant mastermind. But I just don't want to be a part of this place anymore. That's all.
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You've made that abundantly clear.

THERE IS NO MECHANISM FOR IT. Don't blame me.

How many times do I have to say it???

So, leave already.

Then you're not part of this place anymore except for a meaningless pseudonym which no one can access. That will have to be enough for you.

My God, all this drama!

I'm tired of responding to nonsense. I have a house to finish decorating and presents to wrap and cookies to make. You know, REAL LIFE.
 
Then say it. And spare me the rest of the tirade. Just feel free to attack me, while deleting my posts.
 
Angela said:
My first instinct was to tell you is that I don't appreciate being patronized, and that I don't need your approbation, but I reconsidered, and I will try to explain my feelings about all of this, if not for you for other members........
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I’m glad that you have reconsidered your first spontaneous reaction since my posting was never intended to be patronizing nor did I want to butter you up, I just wrote my honest opinion. Thus, it will be a mystery to me that you had the impression, that I was patronizing when writing that you contribute much to this forum. The fact is, that you write lots of comments to clarify genetic papers, and provide pieces of information, etc. I was acknowledging this effort. The thing is, that you were sometimes pretty rude to me, and sometimes you came off as disrespectful. It's not the first time that people of a Germanic background are being accused of Nordicism on this forum. For instance, I was accused of Nordicism for just stating my opinion that some native Romans could be naturally blondish with blue eyes, or that the Viking paper was misconstrued. It appears to me that, there are some prejudice, biases against people with a Germanic background. Again, I had no intention to be patronizing nor to flatter you. I was rather just expressing my impression that you say things that come off disrespectful, rude, but that you don’t say it to be mean or snarky. Besides, I read several forums including Quora, thus I know for a fact, that Southern Europeans in general but Italians, in particular, are trolled like crazy. With that being said those who call Italians Wogs, troll their cultural and ethnic identity are often not Northern Europeans but all kinds of people, including non-Europeans. Furthermore, when I debunked and debated anti-Italians folks who spread BS about Italians, the Italians were glad that not everybody on the internet is an idiot who spreads garbage about Italians and trashes their heritage. None of them accused me of being patronizing.​
 
Riverman said:
Well, there are different levels of biological and racial differences, like species, subspecies and varieties or types. Its simple, there is not always some sort of dichotomy. Like if people like Barack Obama or Halle Berry claim they are "black", they obviously aren't "only black" if that term would mean Subsaharan African. The father of Barack Obama was, however, and he himself is mixed race and might identify with the African American ethnicity, which, in the local American context, being used to refer to itself as "black".
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Exactly, Obama's mother is white. And if conspiracies say that he is a Muslim, most probably his father had some relation to the Arabian East African influence, which by the way, was a force for civilization before the Europeans arrived.

It's race, but is their race. Not even other minorities such as the Latinos are included. Afro-whites, which by the way, the call them Oreos(black outside, white inside) don't exist. Whites are oppressors...

And everything is like that for the 'crypto-nationalist activists'.

I prefer to keep distance with that crazy extremist world. Sadly the own left has let them kill the "I want my children to be judged, not because of the color of their skin, but by the content of their character".
 
Razib Khan has a new post on Lewontin, and others:

Read the whole thing. There’s a lot of juicy stuff about how Dick Lewontin and S. J.Gould operated. Gould’s sliminess wasn’t really political, as much as it was personal. He wanted to be the glamorous celebrity scientist, which he did become. The particular point that Lewontin sent activists to harass other professors at Harvard in the 1970’s is interesting because there are a thousand Lewontin’s operating in academia now. The future belongs to him, and not the likes of Wilson. I’m heartened to see so many people praising Wilson online this week. But to be honest most of those people would avert their eyes, just like Wilson’s colleagues did in the 1970’s, if the Dick Lewontin’s of the day came after the Wilson’s of 2021 (who are all mostly closeted anyway).

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2021/12/29/lest-darkness-fall-e-o-wilson-in-2009-with-alice-dreger/
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Lewontin sounds like a really unstable creep.
 
R2cRliW.jpg


https://twitter.com/AliceDreger/status/1475499990491537409/photo/1

Sounds like Lewonton and Gould were trying to cover the sky with their hands.

It is appalling, and totally unsurprising, that these two far-left extremists would resort to violence.

They weren't scientists, they were willfully-ignorant thugs, and lizard-brains.
 
Northener said:
The difference between the US and Brasil you have described is a perfect illustration that race is a social construct. Yes there are genetic differences between and within populations. But the act of classification is subjective, is a social matter. Not a matter of the 'law of gravity'. If so there would have been no differences between the US and Brasil. It's not "given" it is "created" (where are the limits). So not objective. And I guess it's no coincidence that the reverse is also true: those classifiers are mostly (social) pigeonholing types... I personally I'm more interested in ancestry and specific ancestry history. Contrary to race, ancestry is not about categorizing but more about unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population.
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You could say race exists on a spectrum. The matter is where to draw the line between the simmiliraties of certain groups. I mean, even gender supposedly exists on a spectrum.
 
Northener said:
Total agree:

Contrary to race, ancestry is not about categorizing but more about unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population. Because populations lived in relative isolation before transcontinental travel became ubiquitous, each geographic region has its own genetic fingerprint. Through admixture events, in which distant populations interbred, humans in existence today have genes from many different regions. Researchers refer to the current human genome as a “mosaic” of segments originating from around the world[8]. Ancestry studies aim to find where these segments came from.


https://www.unlockinglifescode.org/genomics-insights/ancestry-vs-race-implications-society

That what intrests me, not the definition or classification of race. And that's why HG, EEF and Steppe percentages has basically nothing to do with racialism......
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exactly

this forum used to be about unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population

that's what interested me

now it's about all kinds of chit-chat and members trying to make their point
 
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