Is race just a social construct?

exactly

this forum used to be about unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population

that's what interested me

now it's about all kinds of chit-chat and members trying to make their point

Excuse me, what exactly has facilitated this change? Now more than ever before, we have data available to us for unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population in a large part thanks to Maciamo, Duarte, Salento, and myself. We have thousands of aDNA samples that we processed for free, so that people on this forum can enjoy the fruits of our labor, and have more qualitative discussion.

Therefore, I ask you, who are these people with all kinds of chit-chat, and members making their point?
 
Excuse me, what exactly has facilitated this change? Now more than ever before, we have data available to us for unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population in a large part thanks to Maciamo, Duarte, Salento, and myself. We have thousands of aDNA samples that we processed for free, so that people on this forum can enjoy the fruits of our labor, and have more qualitative discussion.

Therefore, I ask you, who are these people with all kinds of chit-chat, and members making their point?

Thank you for your work. It is much appreciated.

I would however advise to make possible for newbies to post images.
I am somewhat forced to engage in chit-chat in order to reach 20 posts just so I can ask something related to my genetics as I need to post pictures with my question.
 
Excuse me, what exactly has facilitated this change? Now more than ever before, we have data available to us for unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population in a large part thanks to Maciamo, Duarte, Salento, and myself. We have thousands of aDNA samples that we processed for free, so that people on this forum can enjoy the fruits of our labor, and have more qualitative discussion.

Therefore, I ask you, who are these people with all kinds of chit-chat, and members making their point?

this thread, for example didn't start from a scientific paper but from an opinion in the New York Times which even can't be read without a paid subscription
 
My Goodness, Bicicleur 2 no need to be so coy. I'm the person who started the thread, which addresses a serious issue which has always been at the center of the "history of genetic variation in populations", in case you weren't aware. Even back in the days of Cavalli Sforza, population genetics was critiqued for being "racist".

However, perhaps there's a broader issue. Perhaps you should have a heart-to-heart talk with Maciamo and tell him he should massively change his site. Clearly, he is wrong to have sections for OPINIONS, OTHER SERIOUS DISCUSSION, as well as Chit Chat(including humor), not to mention European News, European Culture, and on and on.

Please, be my guest. Tell him he was misguided in providing formats for this kind of content, and even more misguided in starting perhaps hundreds of threads on those topics.

I would have thought perhaps he had some interest in them, and, of course, CONTENT DRAWS VIEWS, but undoubtedly, you know better how to run a site; he'll no doubt be thrilled to get your input.

I also would have thought that everyone would know that if they're not interested in a thread THEY DON'T HAVE TO READ IT!
 
this thread, for example didn't start from a scientific paper but from an opinion in the New York Times which even can't be read without a paid subscription

I think the thread is interesting and I think this subject can, and should be discussed, without all the notion of the superiority of one group over the other in terms of human dignity. Now that is my Catholic Conscience in terms of how I view humanity starting from the first line in the Nicene Creed, I believe in God... Creator of all things seen and unseen. Nevertheless, that does not mean there are not genetic differences among and between population groups (i.e. racial/ethnic groups). The evidence suggest there is and more and more ancient DNA is showing that.

With respect to the NYTimes writer who wrote the piece you are referring to, in my view, it is secular liberal journalist in this country (wokesters, neo-marxist, whatever you want to call them) who are part of the problem in the USA in that they want to stifle any and all discussions on genetic variation across various populations but at the same time in a geo political sense, certain groups are identified by "race and/or ethnicity" for political pandering and political power (i.e votes). :unsure: In the USA, much of the criticism of studying DNA, ancient DNA, etc to help modern Science to understand how modern populations were formed, with the genetic variation found among them, is from very left wing outlets in the Corporate Legacy Media (Journalist) and from the soft social sciences across the American Academia (Education Depts, Poly Science Departments, Sociology Depts, etc.). Yes there are extreme Racialist Nationalist groups in the USA, i.e Nordicism groups on one hand and Afro-centrist on the other hand that use genetic research (pseudo science in my view) to push political agendas as well but I ignore those groups just as much as the radical woke liberals.

Jovialis noted the attacks on the late Professor Wilson by such leftist academics in the USA going back to the 1970's related to the famous book (Sociobiology 1975) He published. I think Charles Murray and even Prof James Watson faced similar criticism for saying things that the leftwing in the USA did not like. Both Murray and Watson got into how certain groups do better on aptitude test, and neither stated that group were American WASP btw, than other groups and suggested genetic variation may explain part of those differences. My view is if you disagree with what they say, debate them on their merits of what they wrote and how they interpreted the data, etc.

Even Prof. Reich, who I think is politically left, but he is still a legitimate Scientists who reports what he finds, got attacked by these same types when he published an op-ed in the NY Times on 30 March 2018 where he stated something to the effect that much of the criticism coming from the media, and the social-science academicians regarding research on and genetic variation across population groups (i.e. racial/ethnic groups) will not stand the onslaught of science. While that might not be an exact quote, it is in substance I think accurate to what he stated, but I don't have access to the article. I did get an idea about it when a journalist from the Atlantic wrote editorial article on Reich's original NYTimes Op-ed

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/reich-genetics-racism/558818/

So I think this is an interesting thread, one of the few times I post outside my lane so to speak (I tend to say in threads related to Italian, Greek, and ancient DNA studies) most people have been very respectful with their post.
 
I think the thread is interesting and I think this subject can, and should be discussed, without all the notion of the superiority of one group over the other in terms of human dignity. Now that is my Catholic Conscience in terms of how I view humanity starting from the first line in the Nicene Creed, I believe in God... Creator of all things seen and unseen. Nevertheless, that does not mean there are not genetic differences among and between population groups (i.e. racial/ethnic groups). The evidence suggest there is and more and more ancient DNA is showing that.

With respect to the NYTimes writer who wrote the piece you are referring to, in my view, it is secular liberal journalist in this country (wokesters, neo-marxist, whatever you want to call them) who are part of the problem in the USA in that they want to stifle any and all discussions on genetic variation across various populations but at the same time in a geo political sense, certain groups are identified by "race and/or ethnicity" for political pandering and political power (i.e votes). :unsure: In the USA, much of the criticism of studying DNA, ancient DNA, etc to help modern Science to understand how modern populations were formed, with the genetic variation found among them, is from very left wing outlets in the Corporate Legacy Media (Journalist) and from the soft social sciences across the American Academia (Education Depts, Poly Science Departments, Sociology Depts, etc.). Yes there are extreme Racialist Nationalist groups in the USA, i.e Nordicism groups on one hand and Afro-centrist on the other hand that use genetic research (pseudo science in my view) to push political agendas as well but I ignore those groups just as much as the radical woke liberals.

Jovialis noted the attacks on the late Professor Wilson by such leftist academics in the USA going back to the 1970's related to the famous book (Sociobiology 1975) He published. I think Charles Murray and even Prof James Watson faced similar criticism for saying things that the leftwing in the USA did not like. Both Murray and Watson got into how certain groups do better on aptitude test, and neither stated that group were American WASP btw, than other groups and suggested genetic variation may explain part of those differences. My view is if you disagree with what they say, debate them on their merits of what they wrote and how they interpreted the data, etc.

Even Prof. Reich, who I think is politically left, but he is still a legitimate Scientists who reports what he finds, got attacked by these same types when he published an op-ed in the NY Times on 30 March 2018 where he stated something to the effect that much of the criticism coming from the media, and the social-science academicians regarding research on and genetic variation across population groups (i.e. racial/ethnic groups) will not stand the onslaught of science. While that might not be an exact quote, it is in substance I think accurate to what he stated, but I don't have access to the article. I did get an idea about it when a journalist from the Atlantic wrote editorial article on Reich's original NYTimes Op-ed

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/reich-genetics-racism/558818/

So I think this is an interesting thread, one of the few times I post outside my lane so to speak (I tend to say in threads related to Italian, Greek, and ancient DNA studies) most people have been very respectful with their post.

I even didn't read the article in the NYT this thread is about simply because I don't have a subscription and it says it is just an opinion.
 
this thread, for example didn't start from a scientific paper but from an opinion in the New York Times which even can't be read without a paid subscription

David Reich argued that race may be a social construct, while differences in genetic ancestry that happen to correlate to many of today's racial constructs are real. Reich prefers to use 'ancestry' to replace the controversial term loaded with the historical baggage. For example, some Americans now identify as black due to a single grandparent from sub-Saharan African ancestry. One of the reasons race is not a firm concept is due to the process called admixture. Based on the sequencing of ancient human genomes, his lab discovered in 2016 that Europeans represent a mixture of four ancient populations that lived 10,000 years ago, which were each as different from one another as Europeans and East Asians are today. Reich further emphasized the importance of laying out a rational framework for discussing differences among populations to avoid leaving a vacuum that gets filled by pseudoscience. Reich wrote this article to promote "Who We Are and How We Got Here", a 2018 book on the contribution of genome-wide ancient DNA research to human population genetics. It was a rebuttal to very liberal scientists who accused him of promoting racism through his research.
 
I even didn't read the article in the NYT this thread is about simply because I don't have a subscription and it says it is just an opinion.

Regarding my post in #205, some editorial corrections on my part. The article in Angela's original post was the Article By Professor Reich (which I missed, sorry about that). The opinions about his article are what I was referring to, not Reich's original article, which based on what I gathered, was well written and not controversial to me at all. I linked one response from the Atlantic. Sorry for the confusion on my part.
 
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I also would have thought that everyone would know that if they're not interested in a thread THEY DON'T HAVE TO READ IT!

exactly, I just visit and read less and less, but don't try to read my mind

I also have less time to visit than before, but my intrest in genetics and unravelling history is still there

I appreciate all those who invest their time and energy to contribute but I've become very selective in what I read and sparse in my contributions

I'm allready starting to regret I made a comment ..
 
David Reich argued that race may be a social construct, while differences in genetic ancestry that happen to correlate to many of today's racial constructs are real. Reich prefers to use 'ancestry' to replace the controversial term loaded with the historical baggage. For example, some Americans now identify as black due to a single grandparent from sub-Saharan African ancestry, or an equivalent proportion of their DNA. One of the reasons race is not a firm concept is due to the process called admixture. Based on the sequencing of ancient human genomes, his lab discovered in 2016 that Europeans represent a mixture of four ancient populations that lived 10,000 years ago, which were each as different from one another as Europeans and East Asians are today. Reich further emphasized the importance of laying out a rational framework for discussing differences among populations to avoid leaving a vacuum that gets filled by pseudoscience. Reich wrote this article to promote "Who We Are and How We Got Here", a 2018 book on the contribution of genome-wide ancient DNA research to human population genetics.

I'm not interested in race nor ancestry, I'm only interested in unravelling (pré-)history.
I'm very much aware racist theories and biasses exist and probably they allways will.
Even more so, I'm convinced everybody is biassed, inlcuding myself.
Those who accuse other people of being racist should be aware of this, but they aren't.
I just think it's useless to discuss these things with people you hardly know, because you won't change their minds.
 
Regarding my post in #205, some editorial corrections on my part. The article in Angela's original post was the Article By Professor Reich (which I missed, sorry about that). The opinions about his article are what I was referring to, not Reich's original article, which based on what I gathered, was well written and not controversial to me at all. I linked one response from the Atlantic. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

I can read your link, I don't have access to the link posted at the start of this thread.
Anyway I told what I have to say in my reply to ThirdTerm above.
 
Excuse me, what exactly has facilitated this change? Now more than ever before, we have data available to us for unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population in a large part thanks to Maciamo, Duarte, Salento, and myself. We have thousands of aDNA samples that we processed for free, so that people on this forum can enjoy the fruits of our labor, and have more qualitative discussion.

Therefore, I ask you, who are these people with all kinds of chit-chat, and members making their point?

In early 2010s this forum was filled with nationalists with broken English, TBH. Not pandering or anything but it's the truth. Remember the "Illyrian" Croats and the I2a-Din that everyone took for granted without any evidence just because they thought so or liked it that way.
 
In early 2010s this forum was filled with nationalists with broken English, TBH. Not pandering or anything but it's the truth. Remember the "Illyrian" Croats and the I2a-Din that everyone took for granted without any evidence just because they thought so or liked it that way.

just don't give these people any attention, and they leave
that is what happened
 
I'm not interested in race nor ancestry, I'm only interested in unravelling (pré-)history.
I'm very much aware racist theories and biasses exist and probably they allways will.
Even more so, I'm convinced everybody is biassed, inlcuding myself.
Those who accuse other people of being racist should be aware of this, but they aren't.
I just think it's useless to discuss these things with people you hardly know, because you won't change their minds.

Simple. DON'T READ or RESPOND TO THREADS WHICH DON'T INTEREST YOU. I don't see the problem here.

Btw, can't respond to papers on ancient dna if they aren't published. It's been a desert. Why don't you bother all the major labs and complain about the hold ups. I think that might be a more valuable use of your time than posting on a thread to say you're not interested in the thread.
 
Simple. DON'T READ or RESPOND TO THREADS WHICH DON'T INTEREST YOU. I don't see the problem here.

Btw, can't respond to papers on ancient dna if they aren't published. It's been a desert. Why don't you bother all the major labs and complain about the hold ups. I think that might be a more valuable use of your time than posting on a thread to say you're not interested in the thread.

sorry for posting and thanks for telling me what I should do
 
David Reich argued that race may be a social construct, while differences in genetic ancestry that happen to correlate to many of today's racial constructs are real. Reich prefers to use 'ancestry' to replace the controversial term loaded with the historical baggage. For example, some Americans now identify as black due to a single grandparent from sub-Saharan African ancestry. One of the reasons race is not a firm concept is due to the process called admixture. Based on the sequencing of ancient human genomes, his lab discovered in 2016 that Europeans represent a mixture of four ancient populations that lived 10,000 years ago, which were each as different from one another as Europeans and East Asians are today. Reich further emphasized the importance of laying out a rational framework for discussing differences among populations to avoid leaving a vacuum that gets filled by pseudoscience. Reich wrote this article to promote "Who We Are and How We Got Here", a 2018 book on the contribution of genome-wide ancient DNA research to human population genetics. It was a rebuttal to very liberal scientists who accused him of promoting racism through his research.

It is a possibility he doesn't call it race, and says certain things that are preconceived about race might be true in order to "soften" the impact of the reaction of the political orthodoxy.

The concept you layed out here based on some of his text is: Race isn't real because there are people who identify as Black yet they only have one grandfather.

There are multiple errors in this sentence.

1. Personal identification is irrelevant when we talk about something that's biological, anthropological or genetical.
2. The person of mixed heritage does not belong to the African race, but is a mixture of ~25% African race and 75% other races.

This seems the same to me as saying Labradors aren't real because there's dogs that people call Labradors that have been mixed with Golden Retrievers.
 
It is a possibility he doesn't call it race, and says certain things that are preconceived about race might be true in order to "soften" the impact of the reaction of the political orthodoxy.

The concept you layed out here based on some of his text is: Race isn't real because there are people who identify as Black yet they only have one grandfather.

There are multiple errors in this sentence.

1. Personal identification is irrelevant when we talk about something that's biological, anthropological or genetical.
2. The person of mixed heritage does not belong to the African race, but is a mixture of ~25% African race and 75% other races.

This seems the same to me as saying Labradors aren't real because there's dogs that people call Labradors that have been mixed with Golden Retrievers.

that there are genetic differences between populations is quite clear. but name one non-superficial trait that clearly seperates "racial" groups from each other. haven't seen anyone making clear statements about that in this thread actually, eventhough it would be quite important if people want to bring forth a biological justification for the usage of the term "race". if any kind of genetic difference on population level is enough, why are people upset about nordicist talk about the nordic race?

and as Reich said, europeans are a mix of populations that were about the same distance apart from each other as modern europeans and east asians which means they all would have had to be different racial groups. and now think about it, also asked this question here, but noone answered, what race are for example central asians? mixed in different degrees? that would mean europeans or westeurasians in general are also just mixed in different degrees and not a racial grouping.
 
that there are genetic differences between populations is quite clear. but name one non-superficial trait that clearly seperates "racial" groups from each other. haven't seen anyone making clear statements about that in this thread actually, eventhough it would be quite important if people want to bring forth a biological justification for the usage of the term "race". if any kind of genetic difference on population level is enough, why are people upset about nordicist talk about the nordic race? and as Reich said, europeans are a mix of populations that were about the same distance apart from each other as modern europeans and east asians which means they all would have had to be different racial groups. and now think about it, also asked this question here, but noone answered, what race are for example central asians? mixed in different degrees? that would mean europeans or westeurasians in general are also just mixed in different degrees and not a racial grouping.
The difference is a mixture of a couple of people produces just a few individuals with very different genes because of completely different admixtures. If you have an admixture like the European ancestors had, through time these varying individual admixtures are going to even out since this mixed group of people is going to mix between each other and therefore even out the individual varying differences between them creating a completely new race. Therefore the groups we've found to exist at the dawn of writing are indeed - races. You can't have a group with huge individual varying differences scattered accross the whole world without a land of their own to interbreed and even out their individual varying admixtures, and call it a race. A Black person from Detroit perhaps has an 80% African admixture, and a different one from Washington could have 20%. These are therefore not members of a new race, but ones who have 80% of African admixture and 20% White admixture. Whites&Blacks have not intermixed enough in an area for long enough (and probably never will) to create a new race like European ancestors did by merging 2 groups together to form a new race.
 
The difference is a mixture of a couple of people produces just a few individuals with very different genes because of completely different admixtures. If you have an admixture like the European ancestors had, through time these varying individual admixtures are going to even out

sure but that is not completely the case yet even with europeans. and to some degree this already happened with the whole global population. and you still haven't answered either, what trait, that is non superficial, clearly seperates one racial group from the other.

and in the case of central asia, some of those mixtures are already thousands of years old. how long does it take until something is a new "race"? you guys are just coming up with new defnitions but you never make any clear statements.
 
The difference is a mixture of a couple of people produces just a few individuals with very different genes because of completely different admixtures. If you have an admixture like the European ancestors had, through time these varying individual admixtures are going to even out

sure but that is not completely the case yet even with europeans. and to some degree this already happened with the whole global population. and you still haven't answered either, what trait that is non superficial clearly seperates one racial group from the other.

also in the case of central asia, some mixtures are already thousands of years old, how long does it have to take until something is a new "race". you guys are just coming up with new defintions but there is never a clear statement about it. it's always fuzzy and that is why "race" will always be a social construct.
 

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