Is race just a social construct?

[Jovialis]

Before Cuomo was removed from office, Chesa Boudin's father was granted parole at the request of his son.

Speaking of which Chris Cuomo was fired for covering up bad press against his brother!

 

[Jovialis]

Before Cuomo was removed from office, Chesa Boudin's father was granted parole at the request of his son.

Speaking of which Chris Cuomo was fired for covering up bad press against his brother!

Also:

Chris Cuomo Accused of Sexual Misconduct Days Before CNN Fired Him (msn.com)

 

[Northener]

I've spent my entire more than ten years commenting on population genetics fighting the racialism which has always been present in the "amateur" world, as perhaps you know. I've said more than once that it's the dark underbelly of population genetics.

So, I do find it troubling and alarming that "boreality" which is just another word for Nordicism, is now an accepted part of the political conversation in Europe. I take a grim amusement in the fact that as to my concerns that racialism was still a "mostly" silent substratum in a lot of discussions about population genetics particularly as it affects Italian and Greek and perhaps even Balkan genetics, I was, and am, often told that I was seeing things which weren't there.

It doesn't matter that it makes no sense; that no rational person could believe, for example, that the civilizations which formed the basis for western civilization, i.e the ancient Roman and Greek civilizations were "Nordic", just as it didn't matter that the Nazi propaganda that Jews were "inferior" made no sense. Dangerous ideas can spread even if they make no sense.

Where I would differ, and perhaps Jovialis as well, although I really shouldn't speak for him, is that in the U.S., despite what the news coverage might lead you to believe, this kind of discussion could never happen either in the political arena or in private. If some tiny minority believes it, most keep quiet about it; those who speak it out loud become pariahs. I know you probably won't believe me, but it's true. People like that are a tiny, tiny, minority, dwarfed by the number of anti fa and BLM supporters. I know a lot of Trump supporters, more since I've moved further away from N.Y.C., and I've never heard an anti-Jewish, anti-Near Easterner or Indian or Chinese or Black statement come out of their mouths.

I don't think it would even occur to them to make a Southern European comment. You forget how many whole or part Southern Italians not only live in the U.S. but have become prominent and completely accepted. It's a different world from Europe. I've never in my life in the U.S. been belittled or attacked for my ethnicity, but it happened in Switzerland, and in Germany, places I will never again visit and whose products I will under no circumstances buy. Hell, some of the Trump supporters "are" Italian or Hispanic or Jewish, and even black, the latter of which is small but growing. I'm not saying these bigoted beliefs or feelings didn't once exist, but I'm sure I'm older than you, and even anti-black comments are a distant memory. The civil rights movement completely put an end to that kind of thinking.

The reason that some of us are so "anti-Woke", is that this ideology is not only becoming mainstream by force in the U.S., it is controlling the present and the future. It isn't right wing policies which have led to the wave of violence shaking this country, affecting predominantly the minority areas of major cities but now spilling outward, the virtual shuttering down of once wonderful American cities like San Francisco because of riots, large scale coordinated looting, and on and on. Right wingers aren't telling school children they should sit with their "race" during lunch and at recess. What are Americans to think when our government had us on lockdown for so long, living with masks, getting all our injections, and then seeing a wide open border where the unvaccinated flow through unhindered, people who in a time when so many Americans are suffering from economic hardship, will get financial aid, driving licenses, and in some cases a right to vote even though they're not citizens and don't even hold a green card. That certainly wasn't how it worked when we immigrated here. Or how about the horrifying number of deaths from opiate and cocaine addiction? Those drugs come into the country unimpeded with those same migrants.

To point these things out and to be concerned about them is not to be a racialist or even to be an extreme right winger. I've never voted for Trump, and I think and thought he was a loud mouthed jerk, but even supporting him doesn't make someone a racialist. These concerns are real and if not addressed I fear for my adopted country.

I know your efforts and in general I support this.

I'm hasty so only a view remarks. I guess the track record of Trump with regard to racialism is not spick and span:
https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history
The extreme right in EU are attracted to him like flies to....

Biut besides that I guess you sometimes underestimate the developments in big parts of Europe Of course there is racialism. But on the other side the reality in countries like the Netherland "on the grass roots" level is differentiated. It's no longer the old homogenous country (not talking about religion it ones was. It's more and more heterogeneous really on a "silent majority" level. Even compared to let's say 1980 it is a very changed world....I can say this by experience.

Besides that the blue print of your NYC was laid by the Dutch with a portion tolerance too.

To give examples the two party leaders of the extreme right party's Geert Wilders (PVV) and Thierry Baudet (FvD), the guy of the boreal statement, are in fact partly Indonesian. Which makes his statement even more obsolete.

 

[Northener]

If people land somewhere on a PCA, it is what it is. I don't understand what the solution would be, but not study genetics?

Also, are you willing to sacrifice a level of freedom of speech so people cannot reflect on what a boreal race could be?

Also, why is it evil to acknowledge that it might even have some basis in reality. I think it is easy to define what a Nordic person is, compared to other Europeans.

Angela and you already gave some solutions! See above ^^^

Basically genetic shows there is on European level no 'racial' devision! Yes the Finns/ adjective Swede have a stand alone position. The rest is 'crowded house'.

But the question is if the position of the Finns is sharp enough to call it a 'race' on their own...

Still extreme right makes racial claims in this respect, which are quite clear scientific non sense.

 

[Jovialis]

Angela and ypu already gave some solutions! See above ^^^

Basically genetic shows there is on European level no 'racial' devision! Yes the Finns/ adjective Swede have a stand alone positions. The rest is 'crowded house'.

But the question is if the position of the Finns is sharp enough to call it a 'race' on their own...

Still extreme right makes racial claims in this respect, which are quite clear scientific non sense.

I've said this a few times but Middle Easterners and Europeans (i.e. West Eurasians) have more in common than people broadly called "Black". So, I would not suggest "race" would be appropriate to classify finer-grain analysis of these larger clusters.

 

[Northener]

I've said this a few times but Middle Easterners and Europeans (i.e. West Eurasians) have more in common than people broadly called "Black". So, I would not suggest "race" would be appropriate to classify finer-grain analysis of these larger clusters.

On the contrary does the extreme right, Baudet doesn't only speak about the boreal race, he makes it even more narrow:

"diluting the Dutch population homeopathically with all the peoples of the world, so that there will never be a Dutch person again"

The Dutch race????

 

[Ailchu]

Ok, that already reveals how odd this exercise is, because "ultra-Germanic" populations (like the North Germans) would fall outside this "boreal" range....do you really think this would be the aim of the extreme right?

if they want to include the northern germans they can simply shift the lines.

Basically genetic shows there is on European level no 'racial' devision! Yes the Finns/ adjective Swede have a stand alone position. The rest is 'crowded house'.

"crowded house" is not an argument against race. that would be Lewontin theory.

On the contrary does the extreme right, Baudet doesn't only speak about the boreal race, he makes it even more narrow: "diluting the Dutch population homeopathically with all the peoples of the world, so that there will never be a Dutch person again" The Dutch race????

replace the term "race" with "ethnicity". does it change the meaning significantly?

 

[Northener]

if they want to include the northern germans they can simply shift the lines.

Ok if is that easy....

"crowded house" is not an argument against race. that is Lewontin theory.

A race supposes at least a differentiated stance doesn't it?

replace the term "race" with "ethnicity". does it change the meaning significantly

What are the definitions of both?

 

[Ailchu]

Ok if is that easy....

if they agree on it then it really is that easy.

A race supposes at least a differentiated stance doesn't it?

does it? noone really knows. at this point it doesn't even matter if they call it race or not. and what about that other experiment? when does someone start to become easteurasian on the west/easteurasian cline? you can't simply discredit Lewontin's points in one case and in the other you apply them.

What are the definitions of both?

both have no clear definition. they overlap. i mean would it be that much different in meaning if someone said the same thing about westeurasians instead of dutch?

 

[kingjohn]

I've spent my entire more than ten years commenting on population genetics fighting the racialism which has always been present in the "amateur" world, as perhaps you know. I've said more than once that it's the dark underbelly of population genetics.

So, I do find it troubling and alarming that "boreality" which is just another word for Nordicism, is now an accepted part of the political conversation in Europe. I take a grim amusement in the fact that as to my concerns that racialism was still a "mostly" silent substratum in a lot of discussions about population genetics particularly as it affects Italian and Greek and perhaps even Balkan genetics, I was, and am, often told that I was seeing things which weren't there.

It doesn't matter that it makes no sense; that no rational person could believe, for example, that the civilizations which formed the basis for western civilization, i.e the ancient Roman and Greek civilizations were "Nordic", just as it didn't matter that the Nazi propaganda that Jews were "inferior" made no sense. Dangerous ideas can spread even if they make no sense.

Where I would differ, and perhaps Jovialis as well, although I really shouldn't speak for him, is that in the U.S., despite what the news coverage might lead you to believe, this kind of discussion could never happen either in the political arena or in private. If some tiny minority believes it, most keep quiet about it; those who speak it out loud become pariahs. I know you probably won't believe me, but it's true. People like that are a tiny, tiny, minority, dwarfed by the number of anti fa and BLM supporters. I know a lot of Trump supporters, more since I've moved further away from N.Y.C., and I've never heard an anti-Jewish, anti-Near Easterner or Indian or Chinese or Black statement come out of their mouths.

I don't think it would even occur to them to make a Southern European comment. You forget how many whole or part Southern Italians not only live in the U.S. but have become prominent and completely accepted. It's a different world from Europe. I've never in my life in the U.S. been belittled or attacked for my ethnicity, but it happened in Switzerland, and in Germany, places I will never again visit and whose products I will under no circumstances buy. Hell, some of the Trump supporters "are" Italian or Hispanic or Jewish, and even black, the latter of which is small but growing. I'm not saying these bigoted beliefs or feelings didn't once exist, but I'm sure I'm older than you, and even anti-black comments are a distant memory. The civil rights movement completely put an end to that kind of thinking.

The reason that some of us are so "anti-Woke", is that this ideology is not only becoming mainstream by force in the U.S., it is controlling the present and the future. It isn't right wing policies which have led to the wave of violence shaking this country, affecting predominantly the minority areas of major cities but now spilling outward, the virtual shuttering down of once wonderful American cities like San Francisco because of riots, large scale coordinated looting, and on and on. Right wingers aren't telling school children they should sit with their "race" during lunch and at recess. What are Americans to think when our government had us on lockdown for so long, living with masks, getting all our injections, and then seeing a wide open border where the unvaccinated flow through unhindered, people who in a time when so many Americans are suffering from economic hardship, will get financial aid, driving licenses, and in some cases a right to vote even though they're not citizens and don't even hold a green card. That certainly wasn't how it worked when we immigrated here. Or how about the horrifying number of deaths from opiate and cocaine addiction? Those drugs come into the country unimpeded with those same migrants.

To point these things out and to be concerned about them is not to be a racialist or even to be an extreme right winger. I've never voted for Trump, and I think and thought he was a loud mouthed jerk, but even supporting him doesn't make someone a racialist. These concerns are real and if not addressed I fear for my adopted country.

interesting
i wonder why surprising
aren't part of the swiss italian themselfs ?
i mean swiss italians are also part of this country
strange thing

 

[Northener]

if they agree on it then it really is that easy.

does it? noone really knows. at this point it doesn't even matter if they call it race or not. and what about that other experiment? when does someone start to become easteurasian on the west/easteurasian cline? you can't simply discredit Lewontin's points in one case and in the other you apply them.

both have no clear definition. they overlap. i mean would it be that much different in meaning if someone said the same thing about westeurasians instead of dutch?

They recycle old Nordicist thought. Imo to be called a race the basic thing is that on a genetic pca all 'Germanic' people, must be densely packed and differentiated from the other Europeans. That is not the case. So this statement about the Nordic/Germanic/boreal race has no solid ground. If then it has toe be shown, they can't.

Were we can see a differentiation is around the Finns. But that is not the clearcut Nordic/ Germanic/ boreal race....

 

[Northener]

if they agree on it then it really is that easy.
does it? noone really knows. at this point it doesn't even matter if they call it race or not. and what about that other experiment? when does someone start to become easteurasian on the west/easteurasian cline? you can't simply discredit Lewontin's points in one case and in the other you apply them.

both have no clear definition. they overlap. i mean would it be that much different in meaning if someone said the same thing about westeurasians instead of dutch?

Ok this map is from 11 years ago but I guess in the mean time "the picture" isn't changed......

— JULY 23, 2010
The Genetic Map of Europe



Frank Jacobs
Genetically speaking, Finns and Italians are the most atypical Europeans. There is a large degree of overlap between other European ethnicities, but not up to the point where they would be indistinguishable from each other. Which means that forensic scientists now can use DNA to predict the region of origin of otherwise unknown persons (provided they are of European heritage).



These are among the conclusions to be drawn from a genetic map of Europe, produced by the Erasmus University Medical Center in Rotterdam (the Netherlands), published in the August 7, 2008 issue of Current Biology. In its Science section, the New York Times devoted an article to the study, reproducing the genetic map.


The discovery that autosomal (i.e. non-gender-related) aspects of DNA may be used to predict regional European provenance of unkown individuals was made by prof. dr. Manfred Kayser’s team of forensic molecular biologists. In a press release, the Erasmus UMC stated that this might potentially be helpful in resolving so-called ‘cold cases’.


The genetic map of Europe was compiled by comparing DNA samples from 23 populations in Europe (pictured on the right-hand side map).Those populations were then placed on the ‘genetic’ map according to their similarity, with the vertical axis denoting differences from south to north, and the horizontal one from west to east. The larger the area assigned to a population, the larger the genetic variation within that population.


When compared to the actual map, the populations kinda sorta maintain their relative position to each other. Two observations spring to mind immediately: the fact that most populations overlap so intimately with their neighbours. And that Finland doesn’t. Some other observations:


- The extent of genetic variation is greater north to south than east to west.This may be a result of the way Europe was colonized by modern humans, i.e. from the south, in three successive waves of migration (45,000 years ago, where before there had only been Neanderthals; 17,000 years ago, after the last Ice Age; and 10,000 years ago, with the advent of farming techniques from the Middle East).
- The isolation of Finnish genetics can be explained by the fact that they were at one time a very small population, preserving its genetic idiosyncrasies as it expanded.
- The relative isolation of Italian genetics is probably due to the Alps, providing a geographic barrier to the free and unhindered flow of population to and from Italy… Although Hannibal, the Celtic and Germanic influence in Italy’s north and of course the expansion of the Roman Empire would seem to contradict this.
- Yugoslav genetic variation is quite large (hence the big pink blob), and overlaps with the Greek, Romanian, Hungarian, Czech and even the Italian ones.
- There is surprisingly little overlap between the northern and southern German populations, each of which has more in common with their other neighbours (Danish/Dutch/Swedish in the northern case, Austrian/Swiss/French in the other one).
- The Polish population is quite eccentric as well, only significantly overlapping with the Czech one (and only minimally with the northern German one).
- The Swiss population is entirely subsumed by the French one, similarly, the Irish population almost doesn’t show any characteristics that would distinguish it from the British one.
- British and Irish insularity probably explains why so much of their genetic area is not shared with their closest European cousins, i.c. the Norwegian/Danish/Dutch cluster.

https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/306-the-genetic-map-of-europe/

 

[Angela]

interesting
i wonder why surprising
aren't part of the swiss italian themselfs ?
i mean swiss italians are also part of this country
strange thing

Indeed. That's why I thought I was being polite in not using English to ask for a stamp but instead used Italian, you know, given it's one of the NATIONAL languages of Switzerland.

Instead, that was a big NO, NO. Can't ever use anything but Swiss Dutch in that town, certainly not Italian. When my aunt explained later (the phone having been buzzing all afternoon) the sexualized invective he used on me, a fourteen year old girl, I wanted to go back the next day and punch him. The town is Liestal, in case anyone is wondering, right near Zurich. Never been back, or to Switzerland in general. When my aunt and my cousin and her Swiss German husband want to see me they come to Italy. I never forgive or forget.

In Germany it was some sort of customs official who had been called over. Probably thought my husband was a Turk. That time my husband almost decked him. The guard thought better of his lack of civility when my husband stood up and got a little too close for comfort given my husband is over six feet and at that point was a gym rat carrying 200 + pounds of sheer muscle on him. They don't make members of the Master Race the way they used to...

 

[Northener]

Nordicism and (hyper) borealism have the same roots (wiki Dutch google translate):

Theosophy, Ariosophy and Third Reich
The glorification of the far north dates back to the Enlightenment and Romanticism, where the north served as a model for the stereotypical values ​​of Western civilization. In the 19th century racial theory of Arthur de Gobineau, Ludwig Schemann and Houston Stewart Chamberlain, the north is then connected with the origin of the Aryan race. The theosophist Helena Blavatsky uses a development model. In her 1888 Root-Race Doctrine, she distinguishes between the earlier inhabitants of the sunken continents of Hyperborea, Lemuria, and Atlantis, and the Aryans of the present Indo-European continent. In later esoteric writers these categories largely coincide.

Around 1900, from these impulses, the doctrine of Ariosophy arose, which focused on the divine mission of the Aryan or white race. The Thule-Gesellschaft was particularly influential, which was one of the direct predecessors of the German Nazi Party. From 1928, the German-Dutch scholar Herman Wirth developed the theory that Western civilization arose on a submerged continent that he called Atlantis, Hyperborea or Thule. He saw the rise of the Nazi movement as a return to the roots of this Atlantean-Nordic civilization and the beginning of a spiritual renaissance. Wirth's ideas were met with widespread interest. SS leader Heinrich Himmler appointed him director of the Deutsche Ahnenerbe in 1935 and his ideas remained part of the core values ​​of the Third Reich even after he himself was sidetracked.

Julius Evola
The word "boreal" in its current sense was probably first used by the Italian reactionary and traditionalist Julius Evola, a thinker influential in far-right circles.[3] Evola was partly inspired by the work of Herman Wirth.[4] In his 1937 book Il mistero del Graal (The Riddle of the Grail), Evola writes:

Another traditional, fundamental tenet concerns the center or original seat of the Golden Age "Olympic" civilization, to be located in a boreal or north-boreal region that became uninhabitable [...]. The tradition of a Hyperborean origin, whether in its original Olympian form or in its expressions of a more "heroic" nature, is the foundation for the civilizational work of the races that spread across the Eurasian continent from the end of the Ice Age to the Neolithic. spread.[5][6]
The sunken civilizations of Atlantis and Hyperborea also play an important role in the work of the French esotericist René Guénon (1886-1951), founder of the philosophy of traditionalism. He also invokes Wirth.[7]

Aleksandr Dugin
The term Hyperborea has been used since the 1990s by nationalist and neo-fascist movements in the Russian Federation to refer to the residential area of ​​ethnic Russians. The word has a racist and anti-Semitic connotation, because in this view Jews and Muslims are seen as displacers of the original ("Aryan") population.[8] In particular, the influential, nationalist political philosopher Aleksandr Dugin gives the term a central place in his publications. In his major work The Hyperborean Theory (Giperboreiskaia teoriia, Moscow 1993) and in later contributions, he gives extensive attention to the work of Herman Wirth and Julius Evola.[9] For him, Hyperborea stands for the civilization of the Eurasian continent, the geopolitical center of the Russian Federation, which contrasts with the maritime world of the Anglo-Saxon-American culture that he criticized.

Netherlands
In the Netherlands, Forum for Democracy leader Thierry Baudet has used the term "boreal" twice in a political context. First at the 2017 party congress, where he spoke about "our Boreal Europe"; then in his victory speech after the Provincial Council elections on March 20, 2019, when he used the phrase "our boreal world".[10][11] In response to the criticism that had arisen, he stated in an interview with Algemeen Dagblad that he was referring to "a beautiful, poetic indication" for Europe, the Western world or Western civilization. The term is said to have been borrowed from the French poet Baudelaire, who uses the term aurora borealis (northern lights) in a metaphorical sense. The countries that are lit by the northern lights are in this case the western countries in Europe and North America.[11]
Critics believed that Baudet implicitly referred to the use of the term in extreme right-wing circles. Baudet has denied this.In an article in the online magazine De Correspondent in February 2018, it was stated that the term is used by far-right politicians such as Jean-Marie Le Pen as a dog whistle to the stic

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boreaal_(politieke_term)

 

[Ailchu]

The recycle old Nordicist thought. Imo to be called a race the basic thing is that on a genetic pca all 'Germanic' people, must be densely packed and differentiated from the other Europeans. That is not the case. So this statement about the Nordic/Germanic/boreal race has no solid ground. If then it has toe be shown, they can't.

Were we can see a differentiation is around the Finns. But that is not the clearcut Nordic/ Germanic/ boreal race....

imagine, on your pca's if you removed those populations right next to those 'Germanic' people and created a gap, with your definition they could now be considered a seperate race eventhough their genetics haven't changed a bit.

on your previous PCA i doubt that there is such a gap between finnish people and swedes. if they had taken more samples from other regions they would probably be able to fill out that gap. and after fins there are more easteurasian admixed sami, then other russian ethnic groups etc. when are they a seperate race?

those boeralists can place their lines wherever they want, if they follow the clines it will always be based on biological reality. they don't really reflect it still. it's a social question imo.

 

[kingjohn]

Indeed. That's why I thought I was being polite in not using English to ask for a stamp but instead used Italian, you know, given it's one of the NATIONAL languages of Switzerland.
Instead, that was a big NO, NO. Can't ever use anything but Swiss Dutch in that town, certainly not Italian. When my aunt explained later (the phone having been buzzing all afternoon) the sexualized invective he used on me, a fourteen year old girl, I wanted to go back the next day and punch him. The town is Liestal, in case anyone is wondering, right near Zurich. Never been back, or to Switzerland in general. When my aunt and my cousin and her Swiss German husband want to see me they come to Italy. I never forgive or forget.
In Germany it was some sort of customs official who had been called over. Probably thought my husband was a Turk. That time my husband almost decked him. The guard thought better of his lack of civility when my husband stood up and got a little too close for comfort given my husband is over six feet and at that point was a gym rat carrying 200 + pounds of sheer muscle on him. They don't make members of the Master Race the way they used to...

I understand
I wouldnt mess with a G
Not a smart move

 

[Northener]

imagine, on your pca's if you removed those populations right next to those 'Germanic' people and created a gap, with your definition they could now be considered a seperate race eventhough their genetics haven't changed a bit.

on your previous PCA i doubt that there is such a gap between finnish people and swedes. if they had taken more samples from other regions they would probably be able to fill out that gap. and after fins there are more easteurasian admixed sami, then other russian ethnic groups etc. when are they a seperate race?

those boeralists can place their lines wherever they want, if they follow the clines it will always be based on biological reality. they don't really reflect it still. it's a social question imo.

I understand your point. It's in the category if you want to hit a dog with a stick you will find a stick.

Nevertheless on these kind of plots/pca's this is only limited the case. Take for example the Dutch. The Dutch overlap with other nations is so big you can't separate them, too intertwined within the NW. With the Finns this is possible.

But that boreal thing has a kind of 'occult' background.....no pca stuff

 

[Doggerland]

I agree with Angela, that there are some kind of core populations, that may have been isolated a long time ago. I would also say that there is a significant difference between Sub Saharan Africans, Europeans, South Asians, Aboriginal Australians, East Asians. But there are also kinds of people that are not so easy to fit in this 5 categories and may need an own one, like east Africans, Middle Easterns, Uralics, Native Americans, Polynesians, Papuans for example. But this can bedebated endless I think. And that is what I mean with social construct. We where build to classify people, but how we do it, is influenced by social norms, the place we grow up.

I also do not support the idea that people that are not able to or not made for a kind of work should do it, just because the governmentwants to have percentual rates for a kind of gender, age, ethnicity, or whatever. If the people are able to and interested, they will make it.
There should be the same chances for education attainment, but this cannot balance out an inappropriate precondition.
There is a problem with education attaining for the underclass children, because the parents are often not interested to encourage their children, don’t have the money for it, or they hate upper class people and want their children not to become snobs. The social environment of the underclass is often hateful against the rich.

But sadly the genetic factor is a little more complicated when it comesto class, being rich or poor. Many traits in the population, also the ones for education attainment, are not homozygote in the most individuals. An example: I know a family where the rich man, a freemason and employer, married a woman of farmers origin. The first child became a girl, she finished high school, studied architecture, married an aristocratic man. They divorced, but after that relationship she married another rich man and gave birth to a daughter.
The second and third child of the employer and the farmer woman where born with learning and language disorders. It was a girl and a boy.The girl and the boy went on a school for learning disabled children, they later finished secondary school. The girl had many many relationships to men, divorced once and is living now as a single welfare mom.
The boy became a lab worker, is living alone till today and never got a relationship to a women and has no social contact outside of hiswork place, he is an incel and manga pc nerd now.

And you will likely find examples of people that came from a poor household and finished high school, but that will happen not so often. If the two children with learning and language disorders where raised by poor parents, they would had not nearly finished secondary school, perhaps they would have never learned to speak normally.

With the sports and gender thing, I often thought about this in anotherway: Is it ok for ethnicities that are superior to others in terms of athletics, to line up in specific disciplines with them?
I mean, when it is not okay for intersex and transgender people to run against women, why is it okay for Sub Saharan Africans to run against Chinese?

But when it comes to race it is not only muscle mass and height, there is also a different kind of composition muscle fiber in some people/ethnicites and a better way to deliver oxygen.
Should people with known genetic advantages be selected out from competitive sports?

I think that is another not so easy question, because if we create a biologically equal permission system, there would be may no great sports heroes anymore, but much more random winners.
But maybe in the future athletes will be selected for genetic traits and competitive sports will step on another level of performance and the chances for a sports career will vanish for many people.

I think the resolution for the gender problem would be better rules for the permission of people. For example there are different weight classes in some sports, it would be possible to determine a kind of muscle mass, body fat and height for a kind of sports and gender.

Another idea would be some kind of extra league like the paralympics, the genderlympics.

I mean for example Casta Semenya is a person with two advantages, being African and having internal gonads that produce more testosterone then womans ovaries. For those people we would need an extra league.
https://d4fcp1q4cnzm9.cloudfront.net/post_headers/43/it/x1500_43itkoaq3usk1z5l.jpg

Nature/genetics/evolution doesn't care about feminists or people that feel underprivileged in presence of people, it just plays around and create all kinds of weird things.
Caster Semenya now has the second child with her wife, here in Germany those people had been treated different in the past.
They where usually castrated as infants and told by the doctors and parents that they where women, later in life some of them selfidentified as lesbians and many regret, that they where not able to have biological children. Some of the female assigned people later selfidentified as male. The ones that where assigned male and got orchidopexy and phalloplasty, later often developed not to real men, but in between like Caster Semenya and had psychological problems and no stable relationships to women. Overall the suicide rate is high among those people.
The problem is also that there are different mutations in different genes and different SNPs for this conditions and not all people appear the same, even if they are diagnosed with the same condition. It is notalways so easy as with the chromosome abnormaliities.
There is a warrior grave from the Viking Age of an intersex person:https://allthatsinteresting.com/suontaka-intersex-viking-warrior

Trans people I also do not see them as demons, but as a challenge to our freudo-abrahamitic society. They had always existed since ancient times, the Scythian Enaree, the Indian Hijras, the cult of Kybele and Attis, the Faafafine of the Polynesians. But I think our society makes them mad, because they made a medical problem out of it and now a political movement. They also get instrumentalized by leftists and even BLM activists, that tell them, that being dark skinned and being a trans person is a similar thing. But this is all part of this in my eyes harmful LGBT counterculture, that was also strongly criticized by the intersex activist here in Germany in the late 2000s.
But I must mention that I am non-christian (Like my parents and grandfathers) and this may plays a role in my view, because I see those things different to the majority of European people that are christians.

But overall I agree with Angela, someone like Caster Semenya or transpeople with mostly male body philology should not be allowed to comped with women, they should have their own league. But I don’tsee why for example complete testosterone resistant xy-women should not practice in women sports. The same goes for xx-men or xxy male identified people, they should be allowed to comped with normal xy-men in sports, if they are able to.

But lets get back to the racial questions.

When a population/race is founded on few people, then it is true that there is a core region where most people look similar, and a gradual transition to the border of another, once isolated population.
But if a population/race is founded on diverse individuals, or two or more distinct populations, it is not likely that the core region will consist of people with the same phenotype, if the people are able to build a stable society. In this case, this can only happen, if there is a strong selection factor for a kind of phenotype.

If the population is stable and founded of phenotypical different individuals, many kinds of appearances for people are possible and will circulate around.
In this case, disadvantage causing traits will only be slowly selected out of the whole population and advanced ones will slowly spread over the whole population.
And that is what I believe happened for example in northern Europe with dark skin(disadvantage) and lactose tolerance(advantage)

The problems with PCAs is that the distance is dependent on the markers that are used for calculating it. Like Angela showed it can be scaled and depends on the populations that where used.

But there are also other factors that make it complicated like there are some genetic traits that are not completely identified till today. If those where introduced in this models, the clusters could look different and there could be much more distance or less between some populations.

When it comes to very old samples, 30.000 years+ there is the problem that the public available calculators of today are not able to differentiate between Sub Saharan Africans, Archaic Hominids and Apes. They all cluster with each other. When it comes to the comparison of trait related SNPs, this is true, because they share the most SNPs for known optical traits, because it is often the so called “Wild Type”. But everybody would agree, that a Neanderthal has a very different skull shape to a San from South Africa or a Chimpanzee.
There where a few studies in the last years that identified the genetic differences that are believed to cause the typical Neanderthal headshape and the ones that differentiate human brain shape from apes, but those SNPs are not tested by consumer genetic tests and experts.They are often also not included in WGS data from commercial sites.
How can an algorithm differentiate between them, without these markers?

I remember in the early 2000s there was a big media campaign to promote Neanderthals as important part of European heritage, they where described as cold adapted, fair skinned, blue eyed, red haired, straight haired people who resemble Europeans. All that is not true.
And that is the reason I also do not trust experts so much as most people may do. They may make their statements based on insufficient data, personal assumptions, or the media transforms their findings into completely different claiming.

Humans make mistakes, often not for purpose, but based on their own limitations.

From other parts of science, for example cardiology, especially electrophisiology, I know similar misjudgments in the past that where first promoted by experts and in the media and then where withdrawn, because patients died that shouldn’t had.

A Marxist said that race is a social construct?
I personally don’t care who says something or what his or herintention was. If there is truth in he statement, it doesn't matter who once gave it.

For the political right it is a fact that gender is not a social construct. But this is challenged by many cultural traditions around the world.
Men that wear makeup, skirts, doing work that is reserved for women in most other cultures, other kinds of kinship and political systems in tribal societies.
For the political left gender is a social construct. But this is challenged by biological influenced behavior by all people around the world that in the whole picture always points to a kind of typical male of female behavior, independent of cultural traditions.

The often made argument is that of disorder when it comes to abnormalities, but disorder is always our human view, that favors the normal and in our eyes healthy. Nature/genetics/evolution doesn't care if it produces abnormalities and they are the source of evolution. Most of them die, but the very little percentage that does not, may have an advantage.
For example genetic variants in Neanderthals that seemed to be healthy in them causes disorders in modern humans, variants that are involved in brain development in rhesus monkeys, are healthy to the monkeys, but causes disorders in modern humans too.

Another good example is what happens in the black supremacy scene. Europeans are viewed as a kind of disorder, an abnormality, albinos that suffer from the sun and must hide in caves. They where slaves of the Africans in the past, who ruled over the whole world. One day they bound together to destroy the wonderful kingdom of their afro masters and stole everything from them. Their whole nature is based on a psycho-pathological mindset, that is perfect described in this anti-european article:https://truthaboutwhitepeoples.wordpress.com/2015/07/18/white-people-have-a-psychopathy-disorder/

In the white supremacy scene you can see another disorder mythology, some people believe that Sub Saharan Africans are the result of intermixing of modern humans with apes like chimpanzee in Africa.They where described as beasts, half human, half animal and the result of sodomy, a sin in the christian view. Black, sinister chimeras, demons.

The same goes for the discussion about biological sex. Modern Feministsand the political right believe that there are only two kinds of sexes in humans. The feminists believe this because the whole idea of oppression from men vs victimized woman makes no real sense anymore, if other kinds of sexes would exists and that challenges their whole world view. The left does it the same with race as it claims that only two races exist: POC and White, the good oppressed and the evil oppressors. Then there was the idea of mixed race, but this is also viewed as POC now.
The political right has religious ideas and a kind of authority, that must not be challenged by those things. Showing mercy, would mean denying the power of YHWH or a general treason on the principle of male dominance, this would open the door for the disordered to rule the world and ruin it. The rule of Satan, demonic hordes.
And the leftists adapt to the mythology of the political right and enter the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQz0ZXaTC6Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz-4zr4MQro

Some modern scientists argue that there are more then two sexes, others argue that the other varieties that are known, are all disorders, because they are all disadvantages.
It cannot be challenged, that sex how we witness it today in humans is a result of evolution and therefore nothing that is cemented forever or was once, but what is a disorder and what is a variety, about that we can debate. But there is no possible debate about what is the norm in terms of sex in humans today, that is clear for everyone with open eyes i think.
Evolution is far from being a perfect system for the emotional mindset of the individual and does not care about individual suffering. The healthy woman can catch breast cancer, ovarian cancer, dies from childbirth, just because she is a woman. The healthy men can catch prostate cancer, die from the violence of other men, just because he is a man.

Humans are not only rational creatures, they are always mythological creatures too. And that is also very clear when it comes to race or gender questions. And mythology is clearly a social thing, because it unites people and is connected to social norms and traditions.

For example why do scientists call things Mitochondrial Eve or Y chromosomal Adam? There is no scientific reason for this description. It is mythological thinking.

Back to the race question.
When it comes to the race question, I would describe myself European. Germanic ethnicity because I am part of that heritage group, like my wife I share the most overall alleles with the Single Grave Culture samples. In terms of ancestry components we got highest matches with Germanic samples. But when it comes to deeper and ancient ancestry, I am mostly neolithic, Linear Pottery, second most Funnel Beaker. My wife is for example more Globular Amphora and Maglemose related. But you can see, we are both connected trough shared events in the pastin the region.
When it comes to psychological, health related, optical and exercise related traits, we both are more Neolithic then Bronze Age or Mesolithic.
Maybe the neolithic traits had been more advanced in the past because farming, animal husbandry and living in larger settlements where the norm for the most time of history in the region since the bronze age. But I don’t know what other peoples results would be, maybe other Germanic peoples are more Corded Ware or Pitted Ware related.

And I think that other people in the world will have a similar kind of pattern. For example you can be a North African, but some people will have more ancient Egyptian traits, others will resemble more Berber or Arabs.

Or Great Britain. Some people will be more Pict or Celtic related, others Neolithic, Roman or Germanic. This is because a large genetic diversity exists in the British population.

I don’t think that a Nordic race (In terms of a long isolated population) exists or has ever existed. What people think that is a Nordic race, the typical Aryan of Günthers “Nordische Rasse” is a mix of SHG, Corded Ware and Neolithic Farmers and not a pure type.
But to clarify this, It would be interesting to analyze the raw data of individuals that match certain anthropological types of the last century and compare their trait related SNPs to ancient populations.

 

[Angela]

Doggerland: I don’t think that a Nordic race (In terms of a long isolated population) exists or has ever existed. What people think that is a Nordic race, the typical Aryan of Günthers “Nordische Rasse” is a mix of SHG, Corded Ware and Neolithic Farmers and not a pure type.
But to clarify this, It would be interesting to analyze the raw data of individuals that match certain anthropological types of the last century and compare their trait related SNPs to ancient populations.

Completely agree, and that may be why these "white" supremacists have turned to the "boreal" definition. It won't help, because no one in Europe is solely descended from "boreal" people. The largest single chunk of ancestry in most modern Europeans comes from the ANF descended groups. It may be unpalatable for certain people, but it's a fact.

It couldn't be otherwise; no one can outbreed farmers.

 

[Jovialis]

Part of what makes French and English different from Fins and Saami, is that they have a lot more Farmer DNA. In addition to much less Nganasan.