Is race just a social construct?

@Riverman

the differentiation between "population" and "race" doesn't really solve anything. you would still have to answer, when do individuals of this "population" belong to one or the other "race"? at what point of mixing can you say that all individuals of this "population" are the same "race"?

Well, there are different levels of biological and racial differences, like species, subspecies and varieties or types. Its simple, there is not always some sort of dichotomy. Like if people like Barack Obama or Halle Berry claim they are "black", they obviously aren't "only black" if that term would mean Subsaharan African. The father of Barack Obama was, however, and he himself is mixed race and might identify with the African American ethnicity, which, in the local American context, being used to refer to itself as "black".
Its a prime example of when "race" truly becomes a "social construct": When the biological and socio-cultural identification being decoupled from each other.
Of course you are right about when someone mixed could be put in any "pure" category. The question is whether that's even necessary? In fact in many such instances going down to the individual makes sense again, because like North Africans, being obviously more West Eurasian than anything, without being "genetially pure". One can still distinguish the ancient ingredients.

Like Jovialis said: These are ingredients, whether one is pure or not. Its the obsession with purity which makes things absurd. If "a single drop" can make all the difference. That's in fact an American problem. In Brazil for example, there were and still are many categories for all kind of mixed individuals from different backgrounds. Even in South Afria there wasn't just "white & black", but in the USA, for quite some time, there was this strange dichotomy even for obviously mixed people. Blame it on the Jim Crow laws that Americans being so obsessed about purity and confusing biological reality with social constructs. Don't blame nature or natural sciences, not the present and not even (most of) the old anthropological one. Its wasn't studied anthropologists, usually, which were that obsessed with purity, even if they used ideal types for their theories.

We can define WHG ancestry genetically, and we can still determine where it survived, to which people it spread. Does it really matter that it doesn't exist in a "pure form" any longer? It still makes a difference for people to have this component and without these forager ancestors Europeans would not exist the way they do.
Same applies to Neandertal admixture, if we assume (what's very likely), that the hybridisation event was real. We can define Neandertal admixture, we can assess its importance for modern populations and how it influenced their evolution, even though pure Neandertals no longer exist for tens of thousands of years.

If you don't define the ingredients, you can't understand the processes involved to shape modern populations, dead or living individuals, and the genetic and phenotypical profile observable and measurable. It doesn't matter whether a person is pure or not. Every individual has its own genetic make up based on ancient or more modern populations. Even if they crossed each others path more than once, mixed more than once at different times, there is still a traceable and observable gene flow and ancestral make up for every population or individual.
Without defining the most important components and categories, things get just fuzzy and more amateurish. People still try to define and describe "racial" differences, even if they lack the proper terms, they just get more subjective and worse at it.
 
Jovialis: I agree and I personally find some of the discussion absurd to say their are not genetic differences across populations. I, like I assume many here, have looked at some of the DNA tests that I have done to look at genetic markers related to certain medical issues. In fact, the FDA I think approved 23&Me's DNA analysis related to health markers.

Here is a paper from the New England Journal of Medicine published summer of 2021 which while written in very nuanced language as to not offend the woke American Left I assume or the extreme Nordicist types on the American Right, if you read it carefully it does clearly state that genetic ancestry and markers are related to differences in medical risk for diseases across population groups which in this paper notes that modern peoples fall basically into 5 different population clusters Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania and Americas.

So I think a publication in the NEJM would rate higher than those who were trained in deconstructionist ideology in modern Liberal arts and Social science departments across the USA and Europe.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMms2029562


does it? it differentiates between "ancestry" and "race/ethnicity" because as they state "race/ethnicity" are influenced by culture and society. also if a study finds clusters between "Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania and Americas" (which is obviously not really accurate in the first place) it doesn't mean that those clusters are "races". europeans and east asians are often times more closely related than africans between each other. east africans are closer related to europeans than to west africans. and that is not just because of westeurasian ancestry that migrated back to east africa.
even if, it already puts a big question mark on the racial category "african".
 
if all people would see people as unique individuals instead of as part of a group there would be no need for any racial model at all wouldn't you agree? the "more and more" is just a logical consequence once you set the stone rolling.



I get your point, we should not be prejudiced against people no matter their ethnic background. However, we are individuals with a specific culture, specific genetics, language, history, and traditions. The culture, your lineage, and your language make you who you are. Besides, seeing color isn't the issue but rather having a problem that humans are diverse. Another concern is the attaching of any value to a certain phenotype. Anyway, why are you so afraid of accepting the fact that race is a biological reality? Plus, it's human nature that people want to know where they came from, and who they are the closest related to, etc. Folks that are interested in human genetic diversity, thus want to know in details how the different human groups developed should do that without being put under general suspicion. You talk about uniqueness yet you deny uniqueness for populations, human groups. I remember a discussion with you, where you said with a straight face, that a Nigerian migrant, who claims to be as English as a native English, is right. No, he isn't right since unlike the native English he can't claim Anglo-Saxons as his ancestors since his ancestors are rather Igbo, Yoruba, etc. Now African migrants that migrate to Ireland, are saying that they are Irish. It's ridiculous. Once again, "uniqueness" isn't restricted to individuals only but can be also applied to human groups. For political reasons, Europeans are told that they don't exist and everybody with no links to them can claim their history, heritage, culture, and ethnic identity.
 
racial category "african".

There is no "racial category African", there are just different populations within Africa. Its rather an example of how absurd things can get, if people ignore race, like if a Berber from Lybia and a San from South Africa have the same background and story. That's actually a difference to Europe, because despite all their differences, Europeans on their small continent have much more in common than the inhabitants of Africa. It was common to refer to North Africa as "White Africa" and to Subsaharan Africa as "Black Africa", but even that's just the most basal differentiation obviously.
 
If you don't define the ingredients, you can't understand the processes involved to shape modern populations, dead or living individuals, and the genetic and phenotypical profile observable and measurable. It doesn't matter whether a person is pure or not. Every individual has its own genetic make up based on ancient or more modern populations. Even if they crossed each others path more than once, mixed more than once at different times, there is still a traceable and observable gene flow and ancestral make up for every population or individual.
Without defining the most important components and categories, things get just fuzzy and more amateurish. People still try to define and describe "racial" differences, even if they lack the proper terms, they just get more subjective and worse at it.

if you define the ingredients, the "pure types" so to speak, you still haven't defined what exactly modern racial groups are. what are the racial groupings that you would propose?

There is no "racial category African", there are just different populations within Africa. Its rather an example of how absurd things can get, if people ignore race, like if a Berber from Lybia and a San from South Africa have the same background and story. That's actually a difference to Europe, because despite all their differences, Europeans on their small continent have much more in common than the inhabitants of Africa. It was common to refer to North Africa as "White Africa" and to Subsaharan Africa as "Black Africa", but even that's just the most basal differentiation obviously.

and yet that study used the term "Africa". i know that it makes no sense.
 
if you define the ingredients, the "pure types" so to speak, you still haven't defined what exactly modern racial groups are. what are the racial groupings that you would propose?

I don't need to propose what others have done already. The "ingredients" are not necessarily pure themselves, but quantitatively and qualitatively difference. Just like with the "recipe example" used, or the Peruvians and Malagasy, mixed doesn't mean no difference.

Also, there is the classical anthropology, and there are new genetic studies, which, by just using simple PCA patterns, basically repeat the same variation. Everyone should know that Tunisian Berber are closer related to Lower Egyptians than to e.g. Yoruba, regardless which tool (for detecting population level physical or genetic variation) you use. Most reasonable approaches end up with the same general categorisations.
 
@Angela,
As far as I'm concerned, I think your heart is in the right place, and you contribute much to this forum. And I can‘t really speak for Northerner since I don‘t know this poster. That said, it seems that you sometimes have some bias concerning certain topics. For instance, if I am not mistaken, you wrote that your father was very proud that he has genetic ties to the Etruscans or the Romans and that your husband is thrilled to be closely related to ancient Greeks. So why is it fine and okay when Italians take pride in their Roman ancestors, heritage while in contrast, Northern Europeans who are proud of their Germanic forefathers are confronted with accusations of being Nazis, white supremacists? This is not fair. In the USA being "white" is demonized but in Europe, Germanic ancestry is being stigmatized. In my opinion, the association of the Germanic or Indo-European heritage with the Nazis has to stop. I'm speaking generally here, thus it's not addressed to you, nobody should harass Germans, English, or Scandi folks for wanting to reconnect with their Germanic ancestors and heritage. All people, Europeans, Africans, Asians have the right to be proud of their ancestors and to cherish them. This is a natural part of our human nature that we tend to romanticize and elevate our ancestors.

My first instinct was to tell you is that I don't appreciate being patronized, and that I don't need your approbation, but I reconsidered, and I will try to explain my feelings about all of this, if not for you for other members.

There's nothing wrong with being "proud" in a general way of the "accomplishments" of one's ancestors, so long as they're "accomplishments" which contributed to the knowledge and betterment of the human race. If you think I am "proud" that the Romans conquered and enslaved so many people you're much mistaken. I admire many of the things they did in spite of that, not because of it. As to the empire itself I would only say that as empires go, it was, for its time, the best that was perhaps possible, and contributed much to western civilization.

At any rate, Italians draw most of their cultural identity not from the time of the Romans, but from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Those are the times which are celebrated in every small town in Italy and even then, while we feel pride, for example, in my own little town that Dante stayed there for a while, we're quite clear eyed about the stupidity of many of the leaders of the Italian city states. Likewise, what my husband admires about the ancient Greeks is their philosophers, doctors, writers, scientists, not Alexander and his conquests.

Where this all starts to go wrong is when "pride" becomes a sense of superiority towards others. That sense of superiority in terms of population genetics almost always takes the form of the lionization of the steppe component in Europeans, that or the WHG.

What I have never and don't understand is the lionization of steppe nomads who wiped out most of the "indigenous" males of Europe west of the steppe. It is only recently that internet "experts" and even regular posters have started cloaking their delight in their fevered visions of Conan like men rampaging across Europe killing all the men and taking all the women. Anyone who denies that this is the subtext is either extremely new to this discipline or obfuscating.

So, when I see people obsessing on "race" in terms of European groups, and how much steppe versus HG versus farmer they have, my hackles go up, particularly as, in slightly different terms, this was precisely the mind set of the racist anthropologists, historians, writers, and finally, politicians of the latter part of the 19th century and first half of the 20th century.

That mind set is still alive and well in Europe, and it is the dark underbelly of the amateur population genetics world. I saw it out in the open, in black and white and unashamed in the old days, against southern Europeans and particularly Italians, against Jews, against Middle Easterners. I absolutely don't believe it's gone because it's not so brazen nowadays.

As to our Dutch poster, he stepped way over the line; anyone who believes his nonsense explanation for what he meant about the "slimmest" book in the world is completely naïve. He didn't have the COURAGE to spell out his insult directly, and then when called on it he tried to weasel his way out of it. That's not how decent people behave; old fashioned as it might be of me, it's not how a "man" behaves. However, that's between him and me. As far as I'm concerned he's invisible.
 
Angela, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't have to mean he has some kind of general anti-Italian sentiment or can't think straight.
 
My first instinct was to tell you is that I don't appreciate being patronized, and that I don't need your approbation, but I reconsidered, and I will try to explain my feelings about all of this, if not for you for other members.

There's nothing wrong with being "proud" in a general way of the "accomplishments" of one's ancestors, so long as they're "accomplishments" which contributed to the knowledge and betterment of the human race. If you think I am "proud" that the Romans conquered and enslaved so many people you're much mistaken. I admire many of the things they did in spite of that, not because of it. As to the empire itself I would only say that as empires go, it was, for its time, the best that was perhaps possible, and contributed much to western civilization.

At any rate, Italians draw most of their cultural identity not from the time of the Romans, but from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Those are the times which are celebrated in every small town in Italy and even then, while we feel pride, for example, in my own little town that Dante stayed there for a while, we're quite clear eyed about the stupidity of many of the leaders of the Italian city states. Likewise, what my husband admires about the ancient Greeks is their philosophers, doctors, writers, scientists, not Alexander and his conquests.

Where this all starts to go wrong is when "pride" becomes a sense of superiority towards others. That sense of superiority in terms of population genetics almost always takes the form of the lionization of the steppe component in Europeans, that or the WHG.

What I have never and don't understand is the lionization of steppe nomads who wiped out most of the "indigenous" males of Europe west of the steppe. It is only recently that internet "experts" and even regular posters have started cloaking their delight in their fevered visions of Conan like men rampaging across Europe killing all the men and taking all the women. Anyone who denies that this is the subtext is either extremely new to this discipline or obfuscating.

So, when I see people obsessing on "race" in terms of European groups, and how much steppe versus HG versus farmer they have, my hackles go up, particularly as, in slightly different terms, this was precisely the mind set of the racist anthropologists, historians, writers, and finally, politicians of the latter part of the 19th century and first half of the 20th century.

That mind set is still alive and well in Europe, and it is the dark underbelly of the amateur population genetics world. I saw it out in the open, in black and white and unashamed in the old days, against southern Europeans and particularly Italians, against Jews, against Middle Easterners. I absolutely don't believe it's gone because it's not so brazen nowadays.

As to our Dutch poster, he stepped way over the line; anyone who believes his nonsense explanation for what he meant about the "slimmest" book in the world is completely naïve. He didn't have the COURAGE to spell out his insult directly, and then when called on it he tried to weasel his way out of it. That's not how decent people behave; old fashioned as it might be of me, it's not how a "man" behaves. However, that's between him and me. As far as I'm concerned he's invisible.

Give me a break. Your are making philippic statements and ad hominem attacks. It lacks every ground. Projecting and closed minded. Pathetic.

Imo you don't have civilized manners because otherwise you would have apologized for your insulting behavior.

I stop to react to you. Have a nice day!
 
Angela, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't have to mean he has some kind of general anti-Italian sentiment or can't think straight.

Exactly. And Angela supposes that everyone from and above the Alps have- although no self awareness- still a big superiority. Nordicist or woke all racialist dixit Angela.

Trauma from German speaking Switzerland....As such sad enough, but nevertheless to project that on the whole Germanic world is real non-sense, it's Angela herself who has imo the mindset of a racialist.
 
In the USA being "white" is demonized but in Europe, Germanic ancestry is being stigmatized. In my opinion, the association of the Germanic or Indo-European heritage with the Nazis has to stop. I'm speaking generally here, thus it's not addressed to you, nobody should harass Germans, English, or Scandi folks for wanting to reconnect with their Germanic ancestors and heritage. All people, Europeans, Africans, Asians have the right to be proud of their ancestors and to cherish them.

I agree with this 100%, and I say this as an Italo-Celt with virtually zero Germanic ancestry. However, I think Angela & Riverman are correct on the larger questions of this thread.
 
@Angela,
As far as I'm concerned, I think your heart is in the right place, and you contribute much to this forum. And I can‘t really speak for Northerner since I don‘t know this poster. That said, it seems that you sometimes have some bias concerning certain topics. For instance, if I am not mistaken, you wrote that your father was very proud that he has genetic ties to the Etruscans or the Romans and that your husband is thrilled to be closely related to ancient Greeks. So why is it fine and okay when Italians take pride in their Roman ancestors, heritage while in contrast, Northern Europeans who are proud of their Germanic forefathers are confronted with accusations of being Nazis, white supremacists? This is not fair. In the USA being "white" is demonized but in Europe, Germanic ancestry is being stigmatized. In my opinion, the association of the Germanic or Indo-European heritage with the Nazis has to stop. I'm speaking generally here, thus it's not addressed to you, nobody should harass Germans, English, or Scandi folks for wanting to reconnect with their Germanic ancestors and heritage. All people, Europeans, Africans, Asians have the right to be proud of their ancestors and to cherish them. This is a natural part of our human nature that we tend to romanticize and elevate our ancestors.

Then let me speak for myself. I have North Dutch ancestry so you can call this NW Germanic indeed. Does this make me proud, or superior none of this all. Even more I was brought up in a typical North Dutch culture, every touch of arrogance was immediately 'chopped of'. In general North Dutch don't use much words, and they prefer understatements and self irony...that's part of their self awareness too....

I guess we all are to some extent 'group thinkers' with some prejudices about the "other". But I'm glad my parents and grandparents thought me "wise lessons". The essence: see through judgements about the other or others still the person (or personal dignity). Admitted that's not always easy, and I am just like you no holy man, but I guess we ought to keep trying this (-amen- ;)
 
does it? it differentiates between "ancestry" and "race/ethnicity" because as they state "race/ethnicity" are influenced by culture and society. also if a study finds clusters between "Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania and Americas" (which is obviously not really accurate in the first place) it doesn't mean that those clusters are "races". europeans and east asians are often times more closely related than africans between each other. east africans are closer related to europeans than to west africans. and that is not just because of westeurasian ancestry that migrated back to east africa.
even if, it already puts a big question mark on the racial category "african".

Ailchu: I am not going to get into a tit for tat with you. Period. I only cited the way the article was written which I alluded to was written in very nuanced language given it was written in 2021 with all the socio-political issues this country (USA) has. Of course, if you look at Africa, you will find significant variation across that Continent with North Africans clustering with West Asians, and in SSA, East African clustering together apart from Central, Western, Southern, etc.

If you have issues with what was written in the NEJM, take it up with them, not me. Here is a direct quote from the paper, I think the authors were very nuanced with what they wrote. Read it very carefully. Sort of a like the first variable in terms of explaining variation is Continental Clustering, after explaining differences across Populations from different continents, within-continent variation can explain factors as well.

"The largest genetic clusters of people correspond to geographic regions and specific populations in Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania, and the Americas,11 suggesting that continental-level ancestry captures the greatest population differences in genetic variation. Ancestry assessment within continents can provide information on a finer scale.12"
 
So, when I see people obsessing on "race" in terms of European groups, and how much steppe versus HG versus farmer they have, my hackles go up, particularly as, in slightly different terms, this was precisely the mind set of the racist anthropologists, historians, writers, and finally, politicians of the latter part of the 19th century and first half of the 20th century.

i see very little difference between calling different european groups "races" or calling any other group a different race. say, why is calling european groups "races" disturbing? what is it with the term "race" that somehow makes it disturbing in some cases but in others it is completely fine? it's a cultural question i guess because in germany or any other german speaking country using the term "rasse" for human populations is always disturbing.

though if the term can be disturbing even for americans then it also seems to have certain connotations for english speakers.
 
i see very little difference between calling different european groups "races" or calling any other group a different race. say, why is calling european groups "races" disturbing? what is it with the term "race" that somehow makes it disturbing in some cases but in others it is completely fine? it's a cultural question i guess because in germany or any other german speaking country using the term "rasse" for human populations is always disturbing.

though if the term can be disturbing even for americans then it also seems to have certain connotations for english speakers.

In this respect it's remarkable that in the constitution of the Netherlands since a long time this art nr 1.:
All who are in the Netherlands are treated equally in equal cases. Discrimination on the grounds of religion, belief, political opinion, race, sex or any other ground is not allowed.

And yes I think that race is in the end a social construct, because like you questions in this posting already reveal, where we set limits is really arbitrary.

My explanation: I have a close genetic relationship with my sons and daughter and my parents. I have a weaker one with my cousins ​​and my grandparents, and an even weaker one with extended family. If you zoom out further to country and continent, those relationships become increasingly vague.

So where do you want to draw the line between races? It can be based on something very superficial like skin color, but even within groups skin color will vary greatly. And what you define as black or white depends on where and when you live.

So if we define races it's a 'social product'.
 
I think these social constructions are an observation of a quantifiable biological reality.

I think that you got the key here, there are genotype and phenotype differences among humans ('biological reality') but the definition what is a specific race is a matter of classification that is an arbitrary, social construct. Because where do you set the limits? That is not a "given fact".
 
And in fact old fashioned or not but I still believe in some kind of color blindness:

 
Total agree:
Contrary to race, ancestry is not about categorizing but more about unravelling the biogeographic history of genetic variation in a population. Because populations lived in relative isolation before transcontinental travel became ubiquitous, each geographic region has its own genetic fingerprint. Through admixture events, in which distant populations interbred, humans in existence today have genes from many different regions. Researchers refer to the current human genome as a “mosaic” of segments originating from around the world[8]. Ancestry studies aim to find where these segments came from.

https://www.unlockinglifescode.org/genomics-insights/ancestry-vs-race-implications-society

That what intrests me, not the definition or classification of race. And that's why HG, EEF and Steppe percentages has basically nothing to do with racialism......
 
What I have never and don't understand is the lionization of steppe nomads who wiped out most of the "indigenous" males of Europe west of the steppe. It is only recently that internet "experts" and even regular posters have started cloaking their delight in their fevered visions of Conan like men rampaging across Europe killing all the men and taking all the women. Anyone who denies that this is the subtext is either extremely new to this discipline or obfuscating.

Even if it where so, then something will always happen that is against the idea that they have genetically largely survived: One man takes 20 women, but what will his sons take? Their sisters? That would be the only way to keep their genetic heritage. When they take local women, their childrens steppe heritage shrinks to 25%.
Or they must have strict marriage customs that only allows them to marry the 50% steppe daughters of another warlord. But then there are still many local women around and I don’t think that that they had been abandoned. If they move to the next neolithic settlement to play Conan The Destroyer, the same problems arise.

Steppe ancestry or HG ancestry can only survive, if it has advantages over the numerous over-represented neolithic ancestry.
And that is the reason why I am personally not a big fan of determining ethnicity based on Y-DNA. But this is also a spiritual thing, when people are father-centered they may connect spiritually to that individual with the haplogroup, even of they do not have very much other in common. They are proud of that one guy that has fathered their whole Y-Lineage, they see him as a kind of Abraham. They are alive because of him. It is this “My Ancestor” thing ;)

The Funnel Beaker culture had individuals that had more amount of HG ancestry, this is described in literature too, but those samples are outliers or a regional phenomenon of cultural conversion/introgression in my opinion. The vast majority of Funnel Beaker samples I have on my hard disk is more neolithic then HG, there is this one guy from Funnel Beaker near the Elbe river in Tangermünde, he could pass as HG in terms of admixture components.

The same goes for the Globular Amphora:

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/zlota-gac-cwc.png?x76561

We had discussed this in other threads, the alleles for blue eyes, fair skin and blonde hair where present in Europe before steppe. It is impossible to explain blondism with Yamnaya in northern Europe, only21% in Swedes carry rs35264875 TT blonde alleles from steppe.

In this thread it was asked what genetic differences in ethnicities exist beyond physical traits. To get an overview you can search every SNP you can find in a study. Go on NCBI, they have allele values for many living populations.

Some examples of psychological trait related SNPs:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs3219151#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs1421989#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs806368#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs806366#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs6280#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs10914232#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs11932470#frequency_tab

Education Attainment:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs12640626#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs2966#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs4950#frequency_tab

Brain Waves/Meditation/Imagination:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs6588207#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs261900#frequency_tab

Traits related to climate adaption and metabolism:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs2641348#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs5051#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs699#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs2612067#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs662#frequency_tab
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/rs6536991#frequency_tab

Like you can see, some alleles are more common in some populations then in other populations.
 

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