Is race just a social construct?

Angela

Angela

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Definitely, unless we would divide populations in 4867532167 races. There is so much diversity in the world. There are for sure places were people look very different form people from other places. You have a blonde, tall, blue-eyed swede with high cheekbones and straight nose, a dark skinned bantu with all stereotypical 'african' features and a japanese with the typical monolid almond-shaped eye, the broad cheekbones, very pale skin and flat nose. These people could be put in boxes, but then you have so many people who fall everywhere in between and look very 'multiracial' even though they're the last remains of an isolated population, or siblings with the exact same ancestors and exact same history who look like total opposites.
 
Fascinating article, thanks for sharing it Angela :)

Here are some parts that I found particularly interesting:


"I am worried that well-meaning people who deny the possibility of substantial biological differences among human populations are digging themselves into an indefensible position, one that will not survive the onslaught of science. I am also worried that whatever discoveries are made — and we truly have no idea yet what they will be — will be cited as “scientific proof” that racist prejudices and agendas have been correct all along, and that those well-meaning people will not understand the science well enough to push back against these claims.

This is why it is important, even urgent, that we develop a candid and scientifically up-to-date way of discussing any such differences, instead of sticking our heads in the sand and being caught unprepared when they are found."
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As these new discoveries are found, it is important that more people are educated on what they mean. I hope with the rise in interest in consumer genomics, more people take the time to read the legitimate academic interpretations of them. Last I saw, over 12 million people have currently had their DNA tested, combining all companies. I joined this site for this very reason. The problem is that racists go into it specifically to try to prove preconceived notions.


"Did this research rely on terms like “African-American” and “European-American” that are socially constructed, and did it label segments of the genome as being probably “West African” or “European” in origin? Yes. Did this research identify real risk factors for disease that differ in frequency across those populations, leading to discoveries with the potential to improve health and save lives? Yes."
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This is another reason why genetic differences need to be acknowledged; any medical doctor would surely understand this.


"To understand why it is so dangerous for geneticists and anthropologists to simply repeat the old consensus about human population differences, consider what kinds of voices are filling the void that our silence is creating. Nicholas Wade, a longtime science journalist for The New York Times, rightly notes in his 2014 book, “A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History,” that modern research is challenging our thinking about the nature of human population differences. But he goes on to make the unfounded and irresponsible claim that this research is suggesting that genetic factors explain traditional stereotypes.

One of Mr. Wade’s key sources, for example, is the anthropologist Henry Harpending, who has asserted that people of sub-Saharan African ancestry have no propensity to work when they don’t have to because, he claims, they did not go through the type of natural selection for hard work in the last thousands of years that some Eurasians did. There is simply no scientific evidence to support this statement. Indeed, as 139 geneticists (including myself) pointed out in a letter to The New York Times about Mr. Wade’s book, there is no genetic evidence to back up any of the racist stereotypes he promotes."
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Great example of why people need to read the actual sources, instead getting them through a journalist.

Another high-profile example is James Watson, the scientist who in 1953 co-discovered the structure of DNA, and who was forced to retire as head of the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratories in 2007 after he stated in an interview — without any scientific evidence — that research has suggested that genetic factors contribute to lower intelligence in Africans than in Europeans.

What makes Dr. Watson’s and Mr. Wade’s statements so insidious is that they start with the accurate observation that many academics are implausibly denying the possibility of average genetic differences among human populations, and then end with a claim — backed by no evidence — that they know what those differences are and that they correspond to racist stereotypes. They use the reluctance of the academic community to openly discuss these fraught issues to provide rhetorical cover for hateful ideas and old racist canards."
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Another great example of why consensus is important.
 
Gitte said:
Definitely, unless we would divide populations in 4867532167 races. There is so much diversity in the world. There are for sure places were people look very different form people from other places. You have a blonde, tall, blue-eyed swede with high cheekbones and straight nose, a dark skinned bantu with all stereotypical 'african' features and a japanese with the typical monolid almond-shaped eye, the broad cheekbones, very pale skin and flat nose. These people could be put in boxes, but then you have so many people who fall everywhere in between and look very 'multiracial' even though they're the last remains of an isolated population, or siblings with the exact same ancestors and exact same history who look like total opposites.[/QUOTE

I agree there are not clean cut bounders among races but denying races exist, or socially constructed, is against our reality, or living in a parallel universe. If you venture in the animal world you see that horses, zebra, Donkeys are one family, but no one says they are not different races. There could be hybrids among them as well, mule let say is the hybrid of a donkey with a female horse, with different qualities from their parents. So we the people as mammals, have qualities like other mammals as well, like race
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How did you arrive at 4867532167?
 
DuPidh said:
I agree there are not clean cut bounders among races but denying races exist, or socially constructed, is against our reality, or living in a parallel universe. If you venture in the animal world you see that horses, zebra, Donkeys are one family, but no one says they are not different races. There could be hybrids among them as well, mule let say is the hybrid of a donkey with a female horse, with different qualities from their parents. So we the people as mammals, have qualities like other mammals as well, like race
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Your comparison is very, very far from the truth. Just to give you a sense of the magnitude of your mistake, I'll try to explain.

Donkeys and horses hardly have any fertile offspring and when they do it's huge news. There is nothing close to that in humans today. If you want to compare that to humans you might compare it to sapiens-neanderthal admixture. There are signs the offspring were fertile only if the female parent was neanderthal, so even the sapiens-neanderthal genetic compatibility was greater than that between donkeys and horses.

Now, keeping that in mind, check the two images here: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/03/neandertaldenisovan-admixture-using-pca.html to compare the distance between different sapiens groups and neanderthals and denisovans. As you can see, all sapiens groups are so close to each-other that they just look like one single dot in the first picture, while Neanderthals and Denisovans, still not as incompatible with us as donkeys are with horses, are at the very edges. Only in the second picture you can see some variation, but even that is quite gradual.

This is not to say that there aren't different human groups with relatively consistent easily recognizable traits, but human diversity is far, far lower than diversity in most other animals, let alone among different species of animals.
 
Humans have known more than a process of raciation more than a time, would it please or not - but the process did not give a well achieved result because there have been constant matings and exchanges of genes at the mergins, and sometime massive crossings, sexually balanced or not; I see the facts like this. But I don't know why some people believe human mammals could not have races BY PHYLOSOPHICAL PRINCIPLE. Some so called races in the animal world are based upon very few genetic differences. Nobody argued against the existance of Europe bisons and America bisons, for I know. But they mated one to another with healthy descendance, I think.

Deportment concerning individuals of different "race" or at least very different aspect is another thing - I think people can prefer to mate with other people "close" to them by the origins or aspects, or not. This freedom is not without problem in the results for someones but it's a phylosophical question I don't want to discuss, having no evident answer at hand; as a rule, constraint and/or hyerarchical judgements are very bad solutions;
 
To look at things from a different angle, and try and see the bright side, (and not intending to play the devil's advocate in any way): isn't it just marvelous that, whatever genetic proximity there is between us all humans, there should be such a huge diversity of heights, looks, skin colors, eye colors, eye shapes on this planet ? Isn't mankind more beautiful like this ?

I don't know what will become of us humans in future, but unless a nuclear war or cataclysmic volcanic eruption compels us to start over from scratch in very small scattered groups, some day will probably come when we will all end up looking pretty much alike. Racial distinctions and prejudices will disappear. But will it be better ? Just imagine merging all extant types of music into one all-inclusive common mixture. Or melting novel, drama, and poetry into a generic mixed genre. Wouldn't we lose more than we'd gain ? Diversity goes together with its burden of tensions. It also makes for the beauty of our species. Long may it last.
 
We are suspicious by nature, and the more different we are the more nervous and perplexed we get. We also need to Blame our shortcomings on Scapegoats.
Since the Beginning of recorded history, we’ve learned that Humans will blame and attack the other families, another Clan, a rival Tribe, the Village next to, and so on to take anything of value.
If Race and Ethnicity didn’t exist, it wouldn’t make much of a difference, Humans would find a reason to blame another Group Identical to them.
In the US many Blacks were also slave owners, and many White people were indentured servants.
Otzi the Iceman was murdered, Archeologists find human remains from Ancient Times, and so many were brutally killed.
Social construct bs.
 
Salento said:
We are suspicious by nature, and the more different we are the more nervous and perplexed we get. We also need to Blame our shortcomings on Scapegoats.
Since the Beginning of recorded history, we’ve learned that Humans will blame and attack the other families, another Clan, a rival Tribe, the Village next to, and so on to take anything of value.
If Race and Ethnicity didn’t exist, it wouldn’t make much of a difference, Humans would find a reason to blame another Group Identical to them.
In the US many Blacks were also slave owners, and many White people were indentured servants.
Otzi the Iceman was murdered, Archeologists find human remains from Ancient Times, and so many were brutally killed.
Social construct bs.
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Well, unlike with slavery in the Roman Empire you couldn't buy yourself out of it and then become a citizen, whereas white indentured servants could and did, and the number of black people who were free and could own slaves was very small, but generally, I take your point.
 
Salento said:
We are suspicious by nature, and the more different we are the more nervous and perplexed we get. We also need to Blame our shortcomings on Scapegoats.
Since the Beginning of recorded history, we’ve learned that Humans will blame and attack the other families, another Clan, a rival Tribe, the Village next to, and so on to take anything of value.
If Race and Ethnicity didn’t exist, it wouldn’t make much of a difference, Humans would find a reason to blame another Group Identical to them.
In the US many Blacks were also slave owners, and many White people were indentured servants.
Otzi the Iceman was murdered, Archeologists find human remains from Ancient Times, and so many were brutally killed.
Social construct bs.
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Your whole post seems to suggest that it is in fact a social construct so I was very confused when I read the last sentence.

As you said, we feel the need to put the blame on others, use them as scapegoat, etc. Doesn't that tell you that those others aren't necessarily to blame?
 
Ownstyler said:
Your whole post seems to suggest that it is in fact a social construct so I was very confused when I read the last sentence.

As you said, we feel the need to put the blame on others, use them as scapegoat, etc. Doesn't that tell you that those others aren't necessarily to blame?
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My point is that is not about race, but the other, “any other” non familiar to you. 2 Scottish Clans, 2 Tribes in the Amazon, even the Native Americans couldn’t stand each other for whatever reason.
 
I agree with that. Even in tiny countries you have stereotypes that can be used to justify exclusion so I'd say it's not even about diversity in absolute terms, but however people want to define it. I believe it's just within species competition: you want to be part of a coalition so you can be protected and share resources, but you also want to have an "other" to justify resource expropriation.
 
Angela said:
David Reich is a brave man as well as a very intelligent one.
See:
"How Genetics is Changing Our Definition of Race"
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/opinion/sunday/genetics-race.html?smid=tw-share
I read only a few of the comments, but it was enough to sicken me. Logic and reason are dead.
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comments are sickening indeed, they discuss one thing while David Reich discusses another .. somehow they reached the
conclusion that Reich is a racist scientist and says black people have low IQ. idiots.

Races exist biologically and are not a social construct, and instead of trying to hide that fact, we as a civilization should develop the moral framework to handle this issue, we should recognize the equal rights of all humans regardless of race, there may be differences in traits and abilities, whether psychological, physical, or medical we should understand these differences in order to help each other, our brotherhood extends beyond our races.

major racial groups were separated from each other by a period of about 40,000 years, enough for evolutionary changes to take course, we expect that because of natural selection, our ancestors had these traits because they helped them to survive in different contexts and environments.

The comment section asserted that black people have low IQ, I am skeptical that they are or that we should call it intelligence, but assuming that it is real, its not because West Africans stopped evolving while other humans did, they did change from our common ancestor and because of their earlier split, they may have acquired
the most traits that differentiate them from Eurasian groups, I can see that they are better at certain things on average than other groups, and I don't mean sports :)

That's how I see it.
 
Ownstyler said:
Your comparison is very, very far from the truth. Just to give you a sense of the magnitude of your mistake, I'll try to explain.

Donkeys and horses hardly have any fertile offspring and when they do it's huge news. There is nothing close to that in humans today. If you want to compare that to humans you might compare it to sapiens-neanderthal admixture. There are signs the offspring were fertile only if the female parent was neanderthal, so even the sapiens-neanderthal genetic compatibility was greater than that between donkeys and horses.

Now, keeping that in mind, check the two images here: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/03/neandertaldenisovan-admixture-using-pca.html to compare the distance between different sapiens groups and neanderthals and denisovans. As you can see, all sapiens groups are so close to each-other that they just look like one single dot in the first picture, while Neanderthals and Denisovans, still not as incompatible with us as donkeys are with horses, are at the very edges. Only in the second picture you can see some variation, but even that is quite gradual.

This is not to say that there aren't different human groups with relatively consistent easily recognizable traits, but human diversity is far, far lower than diversity in most other animals, let alone among different species of animals.
Click to expand...
In a Balkan country cows are small in size and produce relatively less milk. The reason for this kind of cow is the mountains. To keep up with milk demand this countries import big cows from Holland and produce a cross race, artificially, that produces more milk but is smaller in size so cows still can climb the mountains. We clearly recognize here two races of cows and the difference is the size. We do have size differences also among humans also and when they cross produce the same outcomes as in other mammals. So if we listen to agitators here we should not keep in mind when marry that if we marry another race that is short, our offspring will not be as tall as we are, and as strong as we are. Sometimes in life physical strength matters.
 
Why is David Reich being labeled as a racist who thinks blacks have lower intelligence when he doesn't say anything about that? He said nothing about the intellectual capacity of blacks besides mentioning what Watson said about them being less intelligent without evidence to back him up (racism is NEVER COOL no matter what your contributions were).
 
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Opinions are like snowflakes, all special and unique with most melting away in short order.
 
Here is a tip from everyday life: If something is true never gets repeated. Let say no one has to say you that Germans are law abiding people. Its never repeated. Because its true. Or no one ever mentions that American army is the strongest. Because its true. Or blacks are fast runners. Because its true. Or rapping is a black tradition. But we have to be reminded every week that Russians have a very strong army. Because its not true. If it was true that human races does not exist, or all human are the same, we would not be reminded every day by agitators, TV stations, sociology professor, demagogues. The race thing gets repeated so often that becomes annoying.
Einstein was famously asked when he wrote relatively theory why are 30 books written to oppose his theory. He said because my theory is true. if it was not true one book would have settled the matter.
 
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