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Thread: Reich and Krause in the same boat

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    So you think that originally, before admixing with mostly CHG peoples, the R1b Shulaveri-Shomu were mostly EHG, in order to explain the mainly EHG/CHG makeup of later Yamnaya people? Would they have avoided any intermixing with the Anatolian/Early European farmers for milennia since they migrated from the Balkans?
    a. I dont know. Even if in rhe past I have said that I will not be surprised if shulaveri shows some EHG, most likely they were more similar to people from Iron gates mesolithic.

    b. If its correct that neolithic north anatolia was divided from south by a very thick forest...then it explains why barcin and initial spread of agriculture jumped initially over Thrace and Balkans. Also means that these people moved around west and south black sea freely...with relatively low EEF admix (around 20- 30% i would guess).

    c. From shulaveri diaspora to yamnaya, 3000 years have passed. 3000 years! Sample enough those 3000 years and we will find all sort of mixes. Admixes from that point on became frantic. Everybody was banging everyone (love? Rape? Snatch and slave?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    a. I dont know. Even if in rhe past I have said that I will not be surprised if shulaveri shows some EHG, most likely they were more similar to people from Iron gates mesolithic
    There is zero chance Shulaveri-Shomu were similar to Iron gates mesolithic people, we have the before and after Indoeuropeanization of several peoples and can triangulate what Shulaveri-Shomu was like autosomally:

    Last edited by Saetrus; 29-03-18 at 22:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    There is zero chance Shulaveri-Shomu were similar to Iron gates mesolithic people, we have the before and after Indoeuropeanization of several peoples and can triangulate what Shulaveri-Shomu was like autosomally Attachment 9898

    your attachment isn't working : / Try uploading to imgur.com and linking here
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    There is zero chance Shulaveri-Shomu were similar to Iron gates mesolithic people, we have the before and after Indoeuropeanization of several peoples and can triangulate what Shulaveri-Shomu was like autosomally Attachment 9899
    What are you talking about?

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    All we know about Shulaveri, prior to caucasus admixture and even so early 5800bc, and in armenia (the Aratashen ones), so not the georgian ones that must have had heavy admixture with CHG descendents, is that they had Mtdna H2a, H15a1a and I1...not at all comom in the area and later seen in steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    your attachment isn't working : / Try uploading to imgur.com and linking here
    Fixed. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    What are you talking about?
    You can check it now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    Fixed. Thanks.
    You can check it now.
    Give me a break.
    These days everyone has a problem with the concept of space/TIME.

    But please do elaborate your view...with.dates in mind.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Why do people try to cram PIE in precisely the same location as the most likely Caucasian language homeland? What do they have against Caucasian?

    The main problem here (among countless others) is that non IE languages are historically attested in these regions very early on, by 2000BC at the latest. If these regions were the PIE homeland they would almost certainly still be speaking IE in 2000BC during a time when IE speakers were still expanding in all directions away from their homeland. Given how things shook out, if PIE was seated in the South Caucuses you would have expected to see Indo-Iranian speakers all throughout the Caucuses and Iranian plateau by 3000-2000BC. Mesopotamian populations would certainly have historical records of bumping up against IEs since the earliest written records, but we don't see this. We see no IE until 1600BC with the sparse records of the Hittites and they don't really emerge onto the historical scene in the near east until around 600BC with the Persians. There's no way this would have been the case if PIEs were seated in the South Caucuses.

    And we already have proven that Iranian/Indo-Iranian speakers come from BA steppe populations, so if they came from the South Caucuses they would have needed to move to the steppe first then expanded everywhere else without so much as a whisper in Mesopotamian historical records. As if they decamped to the steppe in the middle of the night and convinced Caucasian speakers to take their place, just to confuse forum posters in 2018.

    Hurr Durr Hittite! Yes, Hittite is still somewhat of a mystery, but this is one exceptional outlier in a broader picture, and we still need the right samples to really say one way or another what the genetics say about Hittite speakers. Another thing about the Hittites is that they were notorious for absorbing all of the cultures that they imposed themselves on. They were called the people of 1000 gods for this reason, so their cultural identity by 1600BC may have little resemblance to their actual origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Give me a break.
    These days everyone has a problem with the concept of space/TIME.

    But please do elaborate your view...with.dates in mind.


    CHG and Anatolian farmer proportions pretty close to my PCA.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Why do people try to cram PIE in precisely the same location as the most likely Caucasian language homeland? What do they have against Caucasian?

    The main problem here (among countless others) is that non IE languages are historically attested in these regions very early on, by 2000BC at the latest. If these regions were the PIE homeland they would almost certainly still be speaking IE in 2000BC during a time when IE speakers were still expanding in all directions away from their homeland. Given how things shook out, if PIE was seated in the South Caucuses you would have expected to see Indo-Iranian speakers all throughout the Caucuses and Iranian plateau by 3000-2000BC. Mesopotamian populations would certainly have historical records of bumping up against IEs since the earliest written records, but we don't see this. We see no IE until 1600BC with the sparse records of the Hittites and they don't really emerge onto the historical scene in the near east until around 600BC with the Persians. There's no way this would have been the case if PIEs were seated in the South Caucuses.

    And we already have proven that Iranian/Indo-Iranian speakers come from BA steppe populations, so if they came from the South Caucuses they would have needed to move to the steppe first then expanded everywhere else without so much as a whisper in Mesopotamian historical records. As if they decamped to the steppe in the middle of the night and convinced Caucasian speakers to take their place, just to confuse forum posters in 2018.

    Hurr Durr Hittite! Yes, Hittite is still somewhat of a mystery, but this is one exceptional outlier in a broader picture, and we still need the right samples to really say one way or another what the genetics say about Hittite speakers. Another thing about the Hittites is that they were notorious for absorbing all of the cultures that they imposed themselves on. They were called the people of 1000 gods for this reason, so their cultural identity by 1600BC may have little resemblance to their actual origins.
    Yeah that's problematic. Here is my map showing the oldest attested languages in the Middle East:

    https://s30.postimg.org/5f5wtbnan/Languages_of_ME.png

    As you can see, there is simply not much space for Proto-Indo-Europeans to cram them there:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Yeah that's problematic. Here is my map showing the oldest attested languages in the Middle East:

    https://s30.postimg.org/5f5wtbnan/Languages_of_ME.png

    As you can see, there is simply not much space for Proto-Indo-Europeans to cram them there:

    Because apparently that is the problem david Reich said archeology has with geneticists and I would add commenters in that kind of blogs such as us...
    You all have a freaking problem with concepts of space and time.
    Imagine I am right and Pie was born in shulaveri...Shulaveri completly disappeared by 5000bc. Something came and that something was different.
    So there were PIE speakers that just become a minority. Maybe part of Kura araxes, just a maybe. But for sure they flee to steppe, to south shores of black sea, maybe into western coast of black sea.
    Anyways, all those taking the place from shulaveri will speak caucasian or even mandarim.. What is the problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post


    CHG and Anatolian farmer proportions pretty close to my PCA.
    hajji Firuz has undeniable links to shulaveri. Pottery, architecture, burials, etc. All description on books of it states the linkage with transumamce pastorals from Shulaveri
    south Caucasus. But still is a guy deep in the iran neolithic land. Just wait until proper Shulaveri from georgia/azerbaijan are tested before we make our minds. Space and time.

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    hajji Firuz has undeniable links to shulaveri. Pottery, architecture, burials, etc. All description on books of it states the linkage with transumamce pastorals from Shulaveri
    south Caucasus. But still is a guy deep in the iran neolithic land. Just wait until proper Shulaveri from georgia/azerbaijan are tested before we make our minds. Space and time.
    https://blogs.sapo.pt/cloud/file/eb6...l%20beaker.pdf

    May i ask you, are you a diagnose schizophrenic ? It's not a pejorative question or an ad hominem attack from my part, i ask because i have a friend that, somehow, in others subjects, act like you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    https://blogs.sapo.pt/cloud/file/eb6...l%20beaker.pdf

    May i ask you, are you a diagnose schizophrenic ? It's not a pejorative question or an ad hominem attack from my part, i ask because i have a friend that, somehow, in others subjects, act like you.
    Giving you a proper answer would get me banned. However will tell you to grow up and grow a pair. Haven't we agree not to exchange anymore? Just have some self respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Giving you a proper answer would get me banned. However will tell you to grow up and grow a pair. Haven't we agree not to exchange anymore? Just have some self respect.
    Oh yes, i forget about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post


    CHG and Anatolian farmer proportions pretty close to my PCA.
    the 'orange' hue is for 'steppe' if I don't mistake?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    the 'orange' hue is for 'steppe' if I don't mistake?
    If i understood correctly its anatolian farmer related. The green is iran farmer related

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    the 'orange' hue is for 'steppe' if I don't mistake?
    What the hell. What 'steppe'? This guys contribute to steppe, not the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    If i understood correctly its anatolian farmer related. The green is iran farmer related
    The thing is that many samples from the 'steppes', appear to have much from that Anatolian farmer related ancestry, which seems wrong.

    Figure Legends (p.18.)

    "Fig. 1 [...] (D) ADMIXTURE analysis, with components maximized in
    West_Siberian_HG, Anatolian agriculturalists, Iranian agriculturalists, indigenous South Asians and WHG
    in blue, orange, teal, red and green, respectively."

    Figure 1 is in page 21.

    So, many samples from Sintahsta (those labeled Sintashta MLBA, for example) appear as mostly 'Anatolian-farmer'-related with some WHG and traces of other components.

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    I'm even thinking if BB people went more east as to mix up with steppe people, but some cultural track would be left. By the way more Catalan BB DNA is on the lane.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I'm even thinking if BB people went more east as to mix up with steppe people, but some cultural track would be left. By the way more Catalan BB DNA is on the lane.
    Any BB in Catalunha Will always be steppe arriving iberia...if no "steppe" then just locals copying BB central europe...if R1B, thren steppe just diluted by local admix. It can't be won.

    Now, zambujal BB with R1B no Steppe might, might, do it.

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    Guys, there is some mess here with colours and populations - so waiting for confirmation or the opposite, let's master our emotions:
    I would not affirm anything, because I could not have the complete paper -
    but in Bernard Sercher blog (free) he wrote:
    blue: Iranians farmers and South Central Asians
    orange: Steppes people
    your teal (or yellow?): Pakistan N-India (???) - maybe South Asia HG?
    green: West SIBERIANS HG
    red: he says nothing, but I believed it was East Asians
    all the way, his definitions are less surprising than some others here - for some pops other definitions could be very inaccurate I think -
    I wait for some good information...
    I open a bottle of good wine and pour it in a not too small glass - cheers!

    Have somebody the part of the paper were colours are defined (copy and paste, please)

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    this picture is from the V.Narashimhan's team work

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    the mistake: two studies, two diff choices of colours

    Attachment 10071

    the first

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    second (Vageesh Narasimhan & Co 's work


    Attachment 10072

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