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Thread: Reich and Krause in the same boat

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Reich and Krause in the same boat

    Some blogs (yes, that one) are getting their heads around it: As per latest Reich book, he thinks PIE was in South Caucasus. Like Johannes Krause had also shown last year as his believe . I am sure in time “everybody already knew”. Even steppe fanatics.

    Let me state again, for future memory, what I have been saying for long.
    1. PIE arised in 6th millennia BC in a culture called the Shulaveri SHomu. “My” Shulaveri Shomu.
    2. When Shulaveri disappeared from south Caucasus in 4900 bc some went to the steppe. Some went back west, to places like Fikirtepe (North Anatolia) and even back to Balkans (where I think they came 7000bc). Some stood and integrated later Kura Araxes, some went south, as south as to Merimde beni salama in the Nile delta.
    3. Shulaveri admix for over a millennia with Chokh people which were pure CHG, descendants of Kotias. These, the more admix with CHG Chokh, were the ones in places such as Palui, Anasueli. Kotias Klde, darkveti and Nagutini. by 4900bc, had loads of CHG. Very shortly after were seen up the Kuban river into the steppe. In contrast with the ones in Armenia (Aratashen and Arknashen) that might have been less CHG.



    Oh, and by the way, they were R1b, M269, and by 4900bc full L23… (and everyone seem to avoid looking into their Mtdna H2a, H15a, I1.)

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    I think that's a very plausible hypothesis. I have long thought that the earliest form of PIE had at least a deep influence from a western EEF or a southern ANF/CHG people who probably brought the R1b-M269 clades to the steppe, even if its ultimate form had developed within the Pontic-Caspian steppe in interaction with the native mostly R1a-bearing tribes.

    But I thought they could've had something to do with Sredny Stog and its known cultural exchanges with the Balkanic Neolithic cultures, especially since we know R1b was present since a long time ago in the Balkans... anyway, it's not that hard for me to simply change the course and assume that, instead of just being a significant substrate or adstrate influence in PIE, the R1b language prevailed (and the R1a EHG language was the substrate).

    If that is sufficiently proved, I'll be cool with that, but I think it is at least almost certain that the environment that created Early PIE was not "pure", but the result of heavy mixing and cultural/linguistic mutual exchanges between steppe peoples and agricultural peoples on the borders of the steppe (Balkans? South Caucasus? Maybe, as you suggest, a people who had links with both regions, in Transcaucasia but ultimately from the Balkans? We'll see). Maybe the profound grammatical and phonetic transformations we see in non-Anatolian IE are the result of heavy substratal influence from native steppe tribes who adopted Early PIE but infused it with much of their own vocabulary and syntax?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I think that's a very plausible hypothesis. I have long thought that the earliest form of PIE had at least a deep influence from a western EEF or a southern ANF/CHG people who probably brought the R1b-M269 clades to the steppe, even if its ultimate form had developed within the Pontic-Caspian steppe in interaction with the native mostly R1a-bearing tribes.

    The way I see it Protoindoeuropeans (from south the Caucasus) had both R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 (Together with J2), R1a is deeply rooted in that Iran-Caucasus region as Underhill 2014 shows. it's just that the original range of PIE had an internal division with the western Centum part heavy in R1b-M269 and the eastern Satem part R1a-M417.

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    So you think that originally, before admixing with mostly CHG peoples, the R1b Shulaveri-Shomu were mostly EHG, in order to explain the mainly EHG/CHG makeup of later Yamnaya people? Would they have avoided any intermixing with the Anatolian/Early European farmers for milennia since they migrated from the Balkans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetrus View Post
    The way I see it Protoindoeuropeans (from south the Caucasus) had both R1b-M269 and R1a-M417 (Together with J2), R1a is deeply rooted in that Iran-Caucasus region as Underhill 2014 shows. it's just that the original range of PIE had an internal division with the western Centum part heavy in R1b-M269 and the eastern Satem part R1a-M417.
    But if that were the case we'd have to assume that the South Caucasus was already quite well connected to the steppes way before the late Neolithic/early Bronze Age. I mean, several R1a, including R1a-M417, have been found at very early dates in the Ukrainian/Russian steppes even several hundreds of kilometers north of the Caucasus, so we'd have to explain how the EHG had a large proportion of Y-DNA very similar to that of South Caucasians, but mostly just R1a (though we've seen a rare J even further north in Karelia before the Bronze Age, didn't we?). Were those South Caucasians then already a mix of CHG with something EHG-like, even before reaching the steppes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    several R1a, including R1a-M417, have been found at very early dates in the Ukrainian/Russian steppes even several hundreds of kilometers north of the Caucasus
    Sure, neighboring populations had somewhat similar haplogroups. However EHG Steppe people all had non-IE R1a, R1a-M417 starts shows up in the eneolithic Steppe only together with CHG-related admixture.

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    There is nothing surprising there. I already wrote in 2009 that R1b-M269 originated in the region of eastern Anatolia and the South Caucasus and that it crossed into the Pontic Steppe during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic.

    The real question is whether we can consider Chalcolithic R1b tribes from the South Caucasus as Proto-Indo-European, or a more primitive form of pre-PIE? I'd say the latter because PIE vocabulary is definitely Steppe-based and includes words for horses and related equipment, which wasn't present in Shulaveri Shomu. Besides, it presupposes that PIE people were exclusively R1b-M269, before they mixed with R1a and I2a2a people in the Steppe (and G2a-U1 farmers from the Late Trypillian who abandoned their towns and joined the Yamna people as nomads). So I think that from a linguistic point of view and in terms of ethnogenesis, PIE equates Yamna and Maykop, while anything before (Khvalynsk, Shulaveri Shomu) are the "building blocks" for PIE.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is nothing surprising there. I already wrote in 2009 that R1b-M269 originated in the region of eastern Anatolia and the South Caucasus and that it crossed into the Pontic Steppe during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    The real question is whether we can consider Chalcolithic R1b tribes from the South Caucasus as Proto-Indo-European, or a more primitive form of pre-PIE? I'd say the latter because PIE vocabulary is definitely Steppe-based and includes words for horses and related equipment, which wasn't present in Shulaveri Shomu. Besides, it presupposes that PIE people were exclusively R1b-M269, before they mixed with R1a and I2a2a people in the Steppe (and G2a-U1 farmers from the Late Trypillian who abandoned their towns and joined the Yamna people as nomads). So I think that from a linguistic point of view and in terms of ethnogenesis, PIE equates Yamna and Maykop, while anything before (Khvalynsk, Shulaveri Shomu) are the "building blocks" for PIE.
    The hittites were Indo european too, yet they didn't have the shared 'steppe' vocabulary youre talking about. That does not make them less IE. They just got their version of IE from an earlier source(not from the steppe dialects). A source like shulaveri-shomu maybe. That kinda makes shulaveri-shomu IE too(at least according to Reich and Krause). And in turn, that makes it hard for the steppe IE to be proto-IE(as something cant be 'proto', if something else came before them). In other words, you cant be the first at something, if someone has already done it before you.

    Maybe what you mean is that the steppe was the first place where IE langauges received input from non-IE steppe languages.

    For now it seems most likely R1b and J2b spread IE to the steppe in the first place. Whatever tweaks happened to the IE languages of the steppe upon arrival
    (uralic influence etc.), is less relevant in terms of proto-indo-european discussions.
    Last edited by Balkanite; 28-03-18 at 11:53.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    for those who think R1b-M269 crossed the Caucasus to get to the Pontic steppe, I think it is strange we don't find any in early Armenian
    afaik the earliest is the Yamna R1b-Z2103 and it postdates Yamna

    if the PIE was in Transkaukasia, it is not sure they were R1b-M269

    as for the Hittites, bear in mind that it was a multilinqual, multi-ethnical empire under IE leadership
    proof of that is to be found in the multilingual library of Hatussa
    it was not a solid block like Egypt, it was more a confederacy of semi-autonomous tribes paying tribute to the Hittite kings
    every time the Hittite king went to war, he had to ask a military contingency from each of these tribes
    that made the empire weak every time there was a dispute over succession

    the Hittite empire came to existence when a small IE tribe conquered the land of the Hatti, who were non-IE
    before that the Assyrians had their own free-trade zone in the land of the Hatti, maybe even a colony

    but weren't there other languages of the 'Anatolian branch' like e.g. Luwian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    for those who think R1b-M269 crossed the Caucasus to get to the Pontic steppe, I think it is strange we don't find any in early Armenian
    afaik the earliest is the Yamna R1b-Z2103 and it postdates Yamna

    if the PIE was in Transkaukasia, it is not sure they were R1b-M269

    as for the Hittites, bear in mind that it was a multilinqual, multi-ethnical empire under IE leadership
    proof of that is to be found in the multilingual library of Hatussa
    it was not a solid block like Egypt, it was more a confederacy of semi-autonomous tribes paying tribute to the Hittite kings
    every time the Hittite king went to war, he had to ask a military contingency from each of these tribes
    that made the empire weak every time there was a dispute over succession

    the Hittite empire came to existence when a small IE tribe conquered the land of the Hatti, who were non-IE
    before that the Assyrians had their own free-trade zone in the land of the Hatti, maybe even a colony

    but weren't there other languages of the 'Anatolian branch' like e.g. Luwian?

    We have to wait for the updates-

    https://kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b_xP312xU106_V.38.1.pdf

    these are M269 that we know currently


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    There's still the problem of R1a and their satem. I find it hard to believe that R1a gradually "turned IE" as far north as the Urals simply because of the prestige of the language in the open steppe down south. I think R1a and R1b were neighbors somewhere east of the Caspian, with R1a up north around Aral, and R1b somewhere in Turkmenistan. Their languages must have been close or the same. R1a moved northwest round the Caspian and went satem. R1b went round the south Caspian with stops around Lake Van and/or the Kura valley, and picked Southwest-Asian and Caucasus admixture on the way. Shulaveri Shomu fits in well.
    Whether some R1b went west as Hittites while or before the others crossed the Caucasus to the steppe, I have no idea. But it would certainly explain why IE hittites had no steppe vocab (for which I'll take your word).
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    @HrvcLv

    I do not think so
    there are Centum languages with R1a
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is nothing surprising there. I already wrote in 2009 that R1b-M269 originated in the region of eastern Anatolia and the South Caucasus and that it crossed into the Pontic Steppe during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic.

    The real question is whether we can consider Chalcolithic R1b tribes from the South Caucasus as Proto-Indo-European, or a more primitive form of pre-PIE? I'd say the latter because PIE vocabulary is definitely Steppe-based and includes words for horses and related equipment, which wasn't present in Shulaveri Shomu. Besides, it presupposes that PIE people were exclusively R1b-M269, before they mixed with R1a and I2a2a people in the Steppe (and G2a-U1 farmers from the Late Trypillian who abandoned their towns and joined the Yamna people as nomads). So I think that from a linguistic point of view and in terms of ethnogenesis, PIE equates Yamna and Maykop, while anything before (Khvalynsk, Shulaveri Shomu) are the "building blocks" for PIE.
    That's very reasonable. But let me know, do you think the core of lexicon and grammar of PIE was already firmly established before it crossed into the steppes and wasn't severely transformed by the later assimilation of other peoples (much like Spanish in heavily Amerindian Hispanic states, like Peru), or do you instead guess that the Pre-PIE language was very different and mixed heavily with the local steppe languages to the point of becoming almost unrecognizable after centuries (that would be more like English in its interaction with French, or the probable situation Armenian after interacting with and assimilating Hurro-Urartian speakers)?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    We have to wait for the updates-

    I don’t think we need to wait, b/c M269 people should be close to M73 people. Likewise Z282 people to be close with z93.
    It seems to me that family feud or abraham and his nephew, “ you choose west, I go east or south”
    I mean IE people be close to Ural people.

    By the way, I have one question. Even if anatoilan IE 4,000BC and tocharian one 3,700bc had common words with modern IE, does it mean that they would speak IE also?

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    good news, only I would like to know the main active of the antisteppitis pills.

    Let's see now how much time endures this new southern trend for PIE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I don’t think we need to wait, b/c M269 people should be close to M73 people. Likewise Z282 people to be close with z93.
    It seems to me that family feud or abraham and his nephew, “ you choose west, I go east or south”
    I mean IE people be close to Ural people.

    By the way, I have one question. Even if anatoilan IE 4,000BC and tocharian one 3,700bc had common words with modern IE, does it mean that they would speak IE also?
    Good point M73 and M269 (as a pair)are only found near Steppe regions. As far as Tocharian, perhaps it is related to Afanasievo, maybe R1b-Z2103,--- Anatolian nobody knows.
    Here is a schematic from the golden oldies section, we now know V88 in Europe etc.... Yamnaya R1b-Z2103-Z2106-Z2108-KMS 67 and KMS75 (near sites like prior to Arkaim-Sintashta and after )for 5000 years







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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There is nothing surprising there. I already wrote in 2009 that R1b-M269 originated in the region of eastern Anatolia and the South Caucasus and that it crossed into the Pontic Steppe during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic.
    I don't know whether they crossed the Caucasus mt. But I think CHG used the other route of central Asia.


    EHG group introduced the supine burial position in East Europe like typical lake baikal burial type with mtDNA C and lake baikal pottery. The pottery type was also found in Hotu Cave of Hg J, which was in EHG.


    looks like EHG language and CHG language were mixing to produce IE in the triangle zone of lake baikal, hotu, and Karelia.(EHG had CHG J, and later yamna had EHG and CHG genes, which means such a long time mixing process to bear IE)

    [/QUOTE]


    @berun,

    Even if anatoilan IE 4,000BC and tocharian one 3,700bc had common words with modern IE, does it mean that they would speak IE also?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I don't know whether they crossed the Caucasus mt. But I think CHG used the other route of central Asia.


    EHG group introduced the supine burial position in East Europe like typical lake baikal burial type with mtDNA C and lake baikal pottery. The pottery type was also found in Hotu Cave of Hg J, which was in EHG.


    looks like EHG language and CHG language were mixing to produce IE in the triangle zone of lake baikal, hotu, and Karelia.(EHG had CHG J, and later yamna had EHG and CHG genes, which means such a long time mixing process to bear IE)




    @berun,

    Even if anatoilan IE 4,000BC and tocharian one 3,700bc had common words with modern IE, does it mean that they would speak IE also?

    just a question,

    if tomorow they found a pure IE population/civilization
    that has 1% Steppe admixture
    what you would say?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @johen, Tocharian and Anatolian languages share words but above all such words provide evidence of an inner evolution from PIE words, just like French from Latin, by that such languages are considered IE. The dates provided arent right.

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    Ok

    I founded,

    just for the linguistic purpose,
    and possible compination of genetics,
    I repeat possible cause every year, new search and data and results and ..
    may change our view , till after a solid package of data we crystalize our thesis

    the most modern aproach seems to be this,




    and not this




    and next year I am even expect more as far as concerns some linguistic families of Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    There's still the problem of R1a and their satem. I find it hard to believe that R1a gradually "turned IE" as far north as the Urals simply because of the prestige of the language in the open steppe down south. I think R1a and R1b were neighbors somewhere east of the Caspian, with R1a up north around Aral, and R1b somewhere in Turkmenistan. Their languages must have been close or the same. R1a moved northwest round the Caspian and went satem. R1b went round the south Caspian with stops around Lake Van and/or the Kura valley, and picked Southwest-Asian and Caucasus admixture on the way. Shulaveri Shomu fits in well.
    Whether some R1b went west as Hittites while or before the others crossed the Caucasus to the steppe, I have no idea. But it would certainly explain why IE hittites had no steppe vocab (for which I'll take your word).
    There are too many overlapping innovations and/or archaisms that are shared between certain satem and certain centum languages, that is regardless of whether they were subject to that phonetic change or not, to sustain the hypothesis that they had broken up and become distant from each other so early. I think the satem development was simply an areal feature that caught on in some adjacent areas and not in other areas. We can't be sure that it meant anything deeper than that, especially because, apart from the centum x satem distinction, there are several other distinctions between different IE branches that cross that binary boundary, what suggests that the centum and satem were both near the same source area. Probably only the Anatolian branch diverged so early that it can be really said to be very distinctive from all the others, especially in grammar, which is a part of the language that takes more time to change significantly (sound changes, even profound ones, can happen in less than 200 years, e.g. the Great Vowel Shift of English).

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @johen, Tocharian and Anatolian languages share words but above all such words provide evidence of an inner evolution from PIE words, just like French from Latin, by that such languages are considered IE. The dates provided arent right.
    But we can think about the other cases in ancient East Asia
    Even if old chinese really had lots of PIE to be developed into modern chinese, the PIE cannot be Proto-chinese. And Dravidian can not be a Proto-japanese also, even if they have common words of 300 to 600 as I remember.

    But then Susumu Ohno, a renowned linguist and classicist, came along and popularized the theory that Japanese was overwhelmingly influenced by Dravidian languages, particularly Tamil, brought to these shores some 2,000 years ago during the Yayoi Period (500 B.C. to 300 A.D.), when the Japanese began rice-paddy cultivation.

    For example in china:

    Dyēus--->Deus (PIE)---> tees(old chinese) ---> di (northern chinese now), dai(soutern chinese now)

    Huang Di people means emperor people(or nation), which chinese called the chinese bronze people as:

    Unlike the Yangshao and Hemudu people, who came from southern China, the Huang Di nation came from west of China, from the western part of the Eurasian continent. They conquered the native people of the Yellow River and the Yangtze River, who possessed a developed agricultural culture. By combining their own imported cultural factors with those of the native culture, the Huang Di people gradually developed a splendid new civilization in the Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties. They superseded the original native people to take the leading role on the stage of Chinese history. That the Huang Di nation was a branch of the archaic Indo-European people is one of the most remarkable facts thus far known to human history. But a large number of Indo-European words in Old Chinese language clearly attest to this fact. The relics left by the Huang Di people are related to the Longshan Culture in the archaeological chronicle, and the civilization of the Xia, Shang, Zhou, and Qin秦 dynasties were its successors.27 Evidence for this claim comes from two sources: the first uses the evidence of ancient documents to show that the Zhou people, and thus the Yellow Emperor’s nation, were originally a nomadic people, and the second is to reveal that there were a large number of Indo-European words in the Zhou language, using the evidence of historical linguistics. The third is the similarity in religion between the Huang Di people and Proto-Indo-European. As to the last point, please refer to the author’s paper “Old Chinese ‘帝*tees’ and Proto-Indo-European ‘*deus’: Similarity in Religious Ideas and a Common Source in Linguistics” (Zhou 2005).
    The Shang Dynasty too bears strong characteristic features of stock-breeding nobility (cf. Chang 1970, pp.79 and p.266 footnote). Since the language reflected in its oracular inscriptions did not differ from that of classical literature of the first millennium B.C., we may state that the dominance of Indo-European vocabulary in Chinese was already consolidated in the second half of the second millennium B.C. Probably since the middle of the third millennium B.C., unfavorable climatic changes took place in Northern Eurasia and caused perpetual waves of southword emigration of stock-farmers. Parallel to the emergence of the Chinese Empire and the Chinese language in East Asia, there were also invasions of Indo-European warriors to the Agean and Adriatic area, to Syro-Palestina and even to Egypt around 2500-2200 B.C. (cf. Gimbutas 1970, pp. 191). Sino-Platonic Papers, 7 (January, 1988) 39
    http://sino-platonic.org/complete/sp...ld_chinese.pdf

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    There are too many overlapping innovations and/or archaisms that are shared between certain satem and certain centum languages, that is regardless of whether they were subject to that phonetic change or not, to sustain the hypothesis that they had broken up and become distant from each other so early. I think the satem development was simply an areal feature that caught on in some adjacent areas and not in other areas. We can't be sure that it meant anything deeper than that, especially because, apart from the centum x satem distinction, there are several other distinctions between different IE branches that cross that binary boundary, what suggests that the centum and satem were both near the same source area. Probably only the Anatolian branch diverged so early that it can be really said to be very distinctive from all the others, especially in grammar, which is a part of the language that takes more time to change significantly (sound changes, even profound ones, can happen in less than 200 years, e.g. the Great Vowel Shift of English).
    Well, this is your field of specialization, so I'll take your word for it. Still, archaisms, by definition, can but be "shared" by daughter tongues. And innovations, at least lexical ones, can be borrowings, due to lack of extant words for new realities. I used to think old English Hlaf and Russian Khleb were cognates, until I learnt the Russian word had been borrowed from Old German. The whole planet today uses "telephones" and "computers". The word came with the thing. Satem and Centum were close neighbors, at least to the west of Yamna, with, in some areas, layers of either superposed on top of each other several times (eg, Poland : CWC, Unetice, Slavic). Common traits might derive from intricate mutual influences, more recent than the centum/satem split (?).

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    @Maciamo.
    Enough with this horse talk and steppe. There isnt a single Shulaveri Shomu site that does not have horse bones.
    And some say that earliest horse with bit wear is 4000bc less then 50 miles from where shulaveri places existed before.
    Even a while back someone remember that north Iran way back had wheels made of wood. So, enough. :)

    Many forget that there are many books addressing that there are many horse bones dated to prior 4000bc in the Kura valley (ie shulaveri land). Better put. The lowlands in eastern shulaveri (azerbaijan) in Alimeteki, it was a plain full of horses....

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    johen, you might have into account allways sound changes affecting words, usualy primary ones as those like god or horse can be shared by other languages, just an interesting example, English has cow and beef, both words have the same IE origin, but the first follows usual English sound laws and the second comes from French boeuf, which is the normal evolution of Latin bovis.

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