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Thread: Sumerians and Native Americans could be related?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    If you think it is so, make a better calculator for this. I think my way is better then just speculating and using simple human eye for trait prediction like the in my own view not very intelligent people, that think that Andaman Islanders and Sub Saharan Africans for example share the same traits, which has no support in the comparsion of features based on SNPs.

    I continue to post data for ancient samples, if the mods like Angela dont like it, they can block me.
    well your data has obvious flaws that you do not take into account yourself though. or how can you get that iberians are phenotypically further away from WHG than aboriginal australians and still consider WHG's as almost european looking? you also have almost the same distance between africans/swedes and you/English.

    would be nice to see europeans compared to other populations, there seem to be massive differences in your calculator depending on which populations you take even if they live relatively close. would also be interesting what the values between CHG/ANF/WHG/EEF are.

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    posted by user (adamm) from anthrogenica :

    interesting to see facial reconstruction of those ancients

    https://ancestralwhispers.org/reconstructions
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Yes, I saw that. I'm suspicious. There's no way, for example, that British Mesolithic looked so much like modern people from the British Isles. Their percentage in modern Brits is very small.

    This is what most people do when "reconstructing" appearance from skulls; they are influenced by the appearance of modern people from the era.

    The only ones I give much credence to are the ones which are based on contemporaneous paintings and/or sculptures, or death masks etc.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    well your data has obvious flaws that you do not take into account yourself though. or how can you get that iberians are phenotypically further away from WHG than aboriginal australians and still consider WHG's as almost european looking? you also have almost the same distance between africans/swedes and you/English.

    would be nice to see europeans compared to other populations, there seem to be massive differences in your calculator depending on which populations you take even if they live relatively close. would also be interesting what the values between CHG/ANF/WHG/EEF are.
    I think this is the second time I've agreed with you. I should mark it on a calendar. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    I think davidski has a crystal ball
    Or he saw this paper above
    His commnt on eurogenes :
    @Luuk
    Based on what I've seen, Y-DNA G and J will be important in ancient Mesopotamia.
    Not sure about T. I can't remember seeing that in any upcoming samples from the region.
    But it's already quite clear how the Steppe Maykop outlier T arrived on the steppe.
    It came from contacts between Steppe Maykop and Caucasus Maykop, because obviously the Steppe Maykop outliers have Caucasus Maykop ancestry.
    Oh, please. What else would they be???

    We've been saying this for 10 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Oh, please. What else would they be???

    We've been saying this for 10 years.
    so you say it pretty predictable
    what y haplogroups he say he saw ?
    i understand
    i still want to share it
    because i do believe he has connection to someone in those labs
    who leak information to him

    so time will tell

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    To make comparisons we would need a more complete set of features markers ; and a global average of the %'s of sharing of all those traits is meaningless. It's the peculiar combinations of these traits that make differences and similarities between people, and not a mean.
    Since long ago all our human groups show internal variety, and crossings (so recombinations) create at the same time some mean features among a big part of the pop and extremely divergent features in some individuals of the same global mixed stock.

    Apparently, spite not homogenous, a lot of our paleo-mesolithic ancestors showed some ancestral features that put them closer to other not "europoid" pop's, as primitive southern Asia ones, in some part; but there were/is no identity;
    are we even sure that same features are always ruled by the very same markers?
    &: ASI pop of today is very multiform for phenotypes, BTW; someones show very europeanlike features in the sense of gracilised europoid (except partly pigmentation) when other stayed in a very old phenotypical stage.
    I keep on saying it, but it never seems to register; these traits are determined by multiple snps working together. It is cumulative. I doubt we have identified all the snps for even one trait yet.

    Analyses like these can lead to the conclusion that a population 80% Anatolian Neolithic and 20% WHG, with a description which is basically that of Alpine people, could be found most commonly in the British Isles.

    It's not a question of building a better calculator. The method and the assumptions which underlie it are faulty.

    More importantly, as you state: "a global average of the %'s of sharing of all those traits is meaningless. It's the peculiar combinations of these traits that make differences and similarities between people, and not a mean.
    Since long ago all our human groups show internal variety, and crossings (so recombinations) create at the same time some mean features among a big part of the pop and extremely divergent features in some individuals of the same global mixed stock."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    well your data has obvious flaws that you do not take into account yourself though. or how can you get that iberians are phenotypically further away from WHG than aboriginal australians and still consider WHG's as almost european looking? you also have almost the same distance between africans/swedes and you/English.
    Ancestry calculators use patterns of SNPs for prediction of components.
    But this is ignoring many traits. Single trait SNPs are not the target of the creators of ancestry calculators and this would not make a sense, because they cannot predict ancestry (Dark skin doesent make you African, blue eyes not a Swede)

    For example WHG gets high results for Finnish, Swedes or Blatic ethnicities in modern calculators. But how can that be, if they appear some part ASI/Aboriginal Asutralian/Dravidian? They where dark skinned, no Scandinavian is this today.

    Why doesn't Angela asks the creators of this calculators for pictures of Dark Skinned Finns with curly hair?

    Then I must argue the same way you did and say this calculators on Gedmatch are all a flaw, how can be someone with Scandinavian ancestry like WHGs be dark skinned? Why don’t Oceanian components appear, ah, those scammers!
    But it is nonsense to say such things, because they are not made to predict traits, only ancestry components.

    Why are WHG far away from Iberians but close to Europeans and Aboriginal Australians based on my prediction?

    Simple answer: WHG shares more of the selected traits with Swedes and Aboriginal Australians, as with Iberians.

    But that does not mean all traits in whole.

    I will take a rough look for this at Cheddar Man:

    Similar traits to Aboriginal Australians:
    Eye distance, some lip morphology, eye lids, some nose morphology, chin morphology, some ear, some skull, all skin color, hair color, hair structure, spine, hands, arms.

    Similar traits to Europeans:
    Eye to nose distance, lip morphology, forehead, facial breadth, chin morphology, some nasal morphology, mouth position, some ear morphology, many for eye color, half of the ones for skin color, hands and arms.

    Similar traits to Iberians:
    Nose to lip distance, some for lip morphology, some skull morphology, some eye color, some teeth, some hair color.

    Europeans share a common ancestry, but that doesn't mean that they share the same traits in eye color, hair structure, facial features and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    If you think it is so, make a better calculator for this. I think my way is better then just speculating and using simple human eye for trait prediction like the in my own view not very intelligent people, that think that Andaman Islanders and Sub Saharan Africans for example share the same traits, which has no support in the comparsion of features based on SNPs.

    I continue to post data for ancient samples, if the mods like Angela dont like it, they can block me.
    Don't take my post as a personal critic of your tries. It's just that it's difficult to be completely accurate in the representation of genetical distances based on pheno/genotypical markers, as yourself wrote in some way, concerning incomplete data. Your work deserves respect.
    ATW the results, even if accurate, doesn't check the allover genetic distances and doesn't reveal the pathes taken by our diverse ancestral groups, when taken at the averages levels. I'm interested in what you do here, don't feal offenced.

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    Honestly the discussion here brought me some new ideas. Instead of comparing the whole sample list of trait SNPs, it would be more useful to compare specific kinds of optical traits, for example the nose morphology, the eye color, the skin color, forehead and so on separately.

    For example a description could be then similar to this:

    The eye color matches Swedes and Danes.

    The skin color matches Aboriginal Australians, South Indians.

    The forehead matches Middle East, Northern South Asians and Europeans.

    The hair structure matches Aboriginal Australians.

    The mouth morphology mostly matches Europeans.

    And so on. This would be easier to imagine and would need no percentages.
    But the problem with this will be that some samples, modern and ancient ones, will not be usable for this, because some SNPs are missing. And some samples will likely have no matches in some or many traits.
    This would lead to fewer samples, but better accuracy.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    After experimenting around I come to the conclusion that it is not a good idea to search for population specific trait patterns to compare single optical traits. The reason for this is following: For example there is a specific pattern for eye color in the population of Swedes. But that doesn't mean that this predict the color. It only says that Swedes share a specific pattern of eye color alleles. But traits that where often caused by single SNPs like blue eyes or red hair, vary and are not the same in every individual of the population.

    When you compare the eye color SNPs to search for a matching population to an ancient sample and finally you say: “The eye color matches mostly Swedes” most people will think that they had blue eyes, but you have to look also at the SNPs for blue eyes to see if this is true.
    Blue eyes doesn't make you Swede, but being Swede also doesn't make you blue eyed.

    For example WHG doesn't display the pattern for Scandinavian eye color heritage, but has the blue eye alleles.

    Another problem is for example nose shapes. When you look at the single specific nose shape SNPs you can make a prognosis how the nose might be shaped. But when you use population patters and comparing two samples, you will get a message like this: “The nose matches Middle Eastern” Ah ok, but what Middle Eastern nose? There are different types of noses, even in the Middle East. So it is useless to look for population specific patterns, because they cannot predict single traits, only shared trait ancestry.
    To clear this specific question you would need data from a genetic study about different nose shapes of the Middle East.

    To differentiate traits between populations you would need much more SNPs for traits, but to find these, the population specific studies first had to be done. After that those SNPs must be tested regularly in consumer and academic DNA test too.

    If one wants to know how an ancient individual may looked like, searching for single trait SNPs and making a prognosis is a better way.
    This would change, if much more SNPs for complex traits like facial features would be known and are available in DNA samples.

    But I will post a graph that shows trait SNP related allele sharing of modern populations, compared to Pygmy:

    https://ibb.co/8zNWjBR

    I find it interesting, that Han Chinese is near the Africans. The reason for this is on the one side that they are a very inbreed population and almost homomozygote, but also share this homozygote alleles with them.
    I personally would speculate if this traits where introduced to Africa by an early migration wave from Asia. There is also this story about Chinese seafarers but I don’t think that they had such a big impact and can be accounted for this.
    Out of Africa” would be also an answer for those, who think that it is the right theory of modern human origin. Maybe it is shared Archaic Human ancestry.
    I checked all my Han Chinese files for a mistake, but they all had typical admixture, no outliers. East Asians as a whole population, do not share so much trait alleles with Pygmy, its only the Han.

    And a graph for ancient populations and trait allele sharing with Neanderthals. I also included the Eastern Fertile Crescent Neolithic, that was discussed in this thread as an ancestor of the Sumerians (Crescent Neol.):

    https://ibb.co/d5cGjQ4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    After experimenting around I come to the conclusion that it is not a good idea to search for population specific trait patterns to compare single optical traits. The reason for this is following: For example there is a specific pattern for eye color in the population of Swedes. But that doesn't mean that this predict the color. It only says that Swedes share a specific pattern of eye color alleles. But traits that where often caused by single SNPs like blue eyes or red hair, vary and are not the same in every individual of the population.

    When you compare the eye color SNPs to search for a matching population to an ancient sample and finally you say: “The eye color matches mostly Swedes” most people will think that they had blue eyes, but you have to look also at the SNPs for blue eyes to see if this is true.
    Blue eyes doesn't make you Swede, but being Swede also doesn't make you blue eyed.

    For example WHG doesn't display the pattern for Scandinavian eye color heritage, but has the blue eye alleles.

    Another problem is for example nose shapes. When you look at the single specific nose shape SNPs you can make a prognosis how the nose might be shaped. But when you use population patters and comparing two samples, you will get a message like this: “The nose matches Middle Eastern” Ah ok, but what Middle Eastern nose? There are different types of noses, even in the Middle East. So it is useless to look for population specific patterns, because they cannot predict single traits, only shared trait ancestry.
    To clear this specific question you would need data from a genetic study about different nose shapes of the Middle East.

    To differentiate traits between populations you would need much more SNPs for traits, but to find these, the population specific studies first had to be done. After that those SNPs must be tested regularly in consumer and academic DNA test too.

    If one wants to know how an ancient individual may looked like, searching for single trait SNPs and making a prognosis is a better way.
    This would change, if much more SNPs for complex traits like facial features would be known and are available in DNA samples.

    But I will post a graph that shows trait SNP related allele sharing of modern populations, compared to Pygmy:

    https://ibb.co/8zNWjBR

    I find it interesting, that Han Chinese is near the Africans. The reason for this is on the one side that they are a very inbreed population and almost homomozygote, but also share this homozygote alleles with them.
    I personally would speculate if this traits where introduced to Africa by an early migration wave from Asia. There is also this story about Chinese seafarers but I don’t think that they had such a big impact and can be accounted for this.
    Out of Africa” would be also an answer for those, who think that it is the right theory of modern human origin. Maybe it is shared Archaic Human ancestry.
    I checked all my Han Chinese files for a mistake, but they all had typical admixture, no outliers. East Asians as a whole population, do not share so much trait alleles with Pygmy, its only the Han.

    And a graph for ancient populations and trait allele sharing with Neanderthals. I also included the Eastern Fertile Crescent Neolithic, that was discussed in this thread as an ancestor of the Sumerians (Crescent Neol.):

    https://ibb.co/d5cGjQ4
    still appreciate your work
    can you have a look on individual I2085 he belonged to haplogroup e1b1b1 from this paper
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...466?show=reads
    i mean what were his facial features
    nose , face shape , forhead ?
    hair color, skin coulour ?

    p.s
    i do wonder
    did he was like the natufians in his facial features
    or he had the phenotype more simlar to the iranian farmers
    hawk nose and stuff ?

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    HI people
    you can' t understand the fact that african and australoid and dravidian peoples and sumerian peoples have different genes but come from a same family because you don' t take them as member of same family : you know in a same family the brothers have not the same genes but they have genes in common or come from the same family
    that's that about sumerians , dravidians, australoids and africans

    it is proved dravidians and australoids have M haplogroup and come from L4 haplogroup from Africa
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_M_(mtDNA)
    and we know australoid/ dravidian people are the first people of middle east and india as show this map of australoid/dravidian/veddoid presence 50000 years ago
    qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8a1e2300d2869577d4ed9ae64e0898d3
    and sothe ancestors of ubaidians were australoid/veddoid/ dravidian folks and the sumerians were so australoid/veddoid/ dravidian people
    even bible can certify it because the first people of irak region was Nimrod people
    Hellanicus also saw long haired blacks called cephenes by the greeks on the euphrates , so he was not wrong

    We can also call those people arabian veddoid
    About them we know this:
    Ancient Vedda-like type of the Arabian Peninsula and South Iran, often heavily mixed. Found in the Mehri of South Oman, around Hadramaut in Yemen, Iranians of Susa, Makran, and Socotrans. Sometimes in Mesopotamia and even Nubia. This type could be linked to the ancestral Arabian population as well as the Dravidians of India. Physical Traits:

    Dark brown skin, curly (ringlet) black hair, rather short, macroskelic, endomorph to ectomorph. Meso- brachycephalic, very small-headed, mildly hypsicranic with a mildly leptorrhine and low nose. Deep set eyes, beard strong, and prognathism only mild.
    Literature:

    Coon humanphenotypes.net/links.html#C39, who named the type, linked it to Veddoids of Sri Lanka.Wissman humanphenotypes.net/links.html#W41 and Grohmann humanphenotypes.net/links.html#G63 called it South Arabian race, based on material of H. Pöch. Lundman humanphenotypes.net/links.html#l67 reports it in ancient Elamites.Field humanphenotypes.net/links.html#F49 recognized it in Iraq, Eicksted humanphenotypes.net/links.html#E34 humanphenotypes.net/links.html#E52 in South Iran and Hadramaut. Biasutti humanphenotypes.net/links.html#B67 mentioned a "Dravidoid" type from Hadramaut.

    one interesting case; joshuaproject.net/people_groups/10380/ym

    The Akhdam are a marginalized group in Yemen. In fact, though their name means "servant", they prefer to call themselves "Al-Muhamasheen" -- "the marginalized ones."

    The people are shorter and darker than typical Yemenis. A study found they were more apt to have sickle-cell anemia, a characteristic attributed also to the Veddoids of South Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adian808 View Post
    HI people
    you can' t understand the fact that african and australoid and dravidian peoples and sumerian peoples have different genes but come from a same family because you don' t take them as member of same family : you know in a same family the brothers have not the same genes but they have genes in common or come from the same family
    that's that about sumerians , dravidians, australoids and africans
    When people are brothers or sisters, they would share the same kind of genetic patterns that mark them as “siblings”
    For example the people of the northern hemisphere like Nenets or Chuckchi. Another example would be Polynesian people.
    But I think you mean that in a more religious/social/political way.

    I can understand that people search for communion and we live in a time where many people lost the connection to their families and also their cultural and biological heritage.
    But I don’t think that it has a positive intention to unite people, that are not really related and create an origin story, that has no support in reality.

    You can find always similarities with people because you have a shared social or religious intention, but that doesn't mean that you must be of the same biological kind.

    In the past ideas like white, red, black and yellow race where spread, but this ideas where build on social ideas, not science.
    And humans tend to search for their social ideas in science, not the other way round.
    With the anthropology of the last century, the diversification of racial classification took place and finally lead to the complex systems of today, that can differentiate more accurate.
    The stuff Coon did, is outdated today and no more really accurate. This is like doing planting crops today with the technology of the middle ages.

    There are many Indians, Australians and Middle Easterns who would disagree with your idea that they are all part of the “Black” movement.
    But there are also people that would agree, because they hope for asocial advantage because of a unity of people who share the same skin color. Or they are like you and believe in the mythology of the idea of an ancient black world.

    In many parts of the world people still believe that they are all descended from two people in the middle east, also a weird idea in my opinion, but it is an emotional thing, in my country such ideas are protected by law. But that doesn't make them real.

    When I would have to say what are the brothers and sisters of the ancient Sub Saharan Africans, I would say the archaic humans of Eurasia. They have the ancestral African ancestry components, they looked similar to them in many traits from what can be seen in the DNA data. They where also Hunter Gatherers, but we don’t know how exactly their culture was like.
    In that sense Europe and whole Eurasia was once black, because it was populated by those archaic people.

    Indians or Australians are in my view based on the data I have seen, different people to the Sub Saharan Africans. They don’t share large amounts of genetic components, so they are not their brothers and sisters. They where a long time isolated from them, like many other ethnic groups and have their own history.
    Haplogroups and mtDNA are an indicator for kinship, when they are of the same subclade, but often are just traces of male dominance and conquest, or a relic of early migration. The autosomal DNA, that defines how you look, that also can be used for kinship detection, can differ from the population that once brought the Haplogroups into the population, or founded it. The most haplogroups can be found in different ethnicities and are not limited to only one kind of people.

    For example many people of African origin in the US have European Haplogroups. Does that make them white in the view of the social ideas of the USA?

    But I don’t think that we discuss anymore about genetics. We discuss here about a social idea, a kind of mythology, an idea that once divided people into 4 races and now into two (White VS POC) and wants to create a worldwide social conflict. Everything that challenges this view of dividing people into 2 categories, must be eliminated, because it challenges the idea of “White VS POC”, it makes the whole conflict obsolete.
    This has nothing to do with brotherhood, not with science, but with hate.
    While the scientific view of ethnicity has diversified, the social and political views are impoverished.

    I am personally cautious when someone calls me brother, often people do this, because they have an agenda and want to instrumentalize you.

    You always repeat what you did I the 3 posting before, I always try to show you facts that Sub Saharan Africans and Sout Asians are not the same ethnicity, but you stay at your view point, they are ancient brothers. I stay at mine, they are not. There's no need to discuss anymore, because this will lead to nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    still appreciate your work
    can you have a look on individual I2085 he belonged to haplogroup e1b1b1 from this paper
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...466?show=reads
    i mean what were his facial features
    nose , face shape , forhead ?
    hair color, skin coulour ?
    Sadly the sample is too small in size to carry enough data for comparing traits. Only admixture can be determined. Its only 28MB. 250MB or more, at best 40GB would be needed to find the relevant SNPs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    Sadly the sample is too small in size to carry enough data for comparing traits. Only admixture can be determined. Its only 28MB. 250MB or more, at best 40GB would be needed to find the relevant SNPs.
    Bummer
    Maybe one of those can fit for anlaysis ?
    (They fall on rare branch under e-m123*
    They are indo-aryan or indo-iranian from north pakistan iron age )

    I1799, I1985, I3262, I6197, I6899, I6900; ~1500-800 BC; Udegram, Swat Valley, Pakistan; SPGT; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT377116

    They are all in the same paper from the same link above

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    this is not mythology, this is reality, sumerians are blacks !!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    When people are brothers or sisters, they would share the same kind of genetic patterns that mark them as “siblings”
    For example the people of the northern hemisphere like Nenets or Chuckchi. Another example would be Polynesian people.
    But I think you mean that in a more religious/social/political way.

    I can understand that people search for communion and we live in a time where many people lost the connection to their families and also their cultural and biological heritage.
    But I don’t think that it has a positive intention to unite people, that are not really related and create an origin story, that has no support in reality.

    You can find always similarities with people because you have a shared social or religious intention, but that doesn't mean that you must be of the same biological kind.

    In the past ideas like white, red, black and yellow race where spread, but this ideas where build on social ideas, not science.
    And humans tend to search for their social ideas in science, not the other way round.
    With the anthropology of the last century, the diversification of racial classification took place and finally lead to the complex systems of today, that can differentiate more accurate.
    The stuff Coon did, is outdated today and no more really accurate. This is like doing planting crops today with the technology of the middle ages.

    There are many Indians, Australians and Middle Easterns who would disagree with your idea that they are all part of the “Black” movement.
    But there are also people that would agree, because they hope for asocial advantage because of a unity of people who share the same skin color. Or they are like you and believe in the mythology of the idea of an ancient black world.

    In many parts of the world people still believe that they are all descended from two people in the middle east, also a weird idea in my opinion, but it is an emotional thing, in my country such ideas are protected by law. But that doesn't make them real.

    When I would have to say what are the brothers and sisters of the ancient Sub Saharan Africans, I would say the archaic humans of Eurasia. They have the ancestral African ancestry components, they looked similar to them in many traits from what can be seen in the DNA data. They where also Hunter Gatherers, but we don’t know how exactly their culture was like.
    In that sense Europe and whole Eurasia was once black, because it was populated by those archaic people.

    Indians or Australians are in my view based on the data I have seen, different people to the Sub Saharan Africans. They don’t share large amounts of genetic components, so they are not their brothers and sisters. They where a long time isolated from them, like many other ethnic groups and have their own history.
    Haplogroups and mtDNA are an indicator for kinship, when they are of the same subclade, but often are just traces of male dominance and conquest, or a relic of early migration. The autosomal DNA, that defines how you look, that also can be used for kinship detection, can differ from the population that once brought the Haplogroups into the population, or founded it. The most haplogroups can be found in different ethnicities and are not limited to only one kind of people.

    For example many people of African origin in the US have European Haplogroups. Does that make them white in the view of the social ideas of the USA?

    But I don’t think that we discuss anymore about genetics. We discuss here about a social idea, a kind of mythology, an idea that once divided people into 4 races and now into two (White VS POC) and wants to create a worldwide social conflict. Everything that challenges this view of dividing people into 2 categories, must be eliminated, because it challenges the idea of “White VS POC”, it makes the whole conflict obsolete.
    This has nothing to do with brotherhood, not with science, but with hate.
    While the scientific view of ethnicity has diversified, the social and political views are impoverished.

    I am personally cautious when someone calls me brother, often people do this, because they have an agenda and want to instrumentalize you.

    You always repeat what you did I the 3 posting before, I always try to show you facts that Sub Saharan Africans and Sout Asians are not the same ethnicity, but you stay at your view point, they are ancient brothers. I stay at mine, they are not. There's no need to discuss anymore, because this will lead to nothing.
    it is not a mythology , it's a reality as said in this site worldatlas.com/articles/who-are-the-australoid-race.html and in this Masaman video youtube.com/watch?v=slTy8MvLQ4U which says australoid come from africa ,and by Bernard sERGENT of french CNRS clio.fr/bibliotheque/l_origine_des_populations_de_l_inde_a_la_lumiere_d es_dernieres_decouvertes_archeologiques.asp
    which says australoid and dravidians comes from africa
    and this site cosmosmagazine.com/history/archaeology/dna-confirms-aboriginal-australian-origins/ which says aboriginals come from africa
    also the phenotype of veddas people the veddoid phenotype is found in arabs from yemen to irak and in vedda people , dravidians and india's australoid meaning an ausrtraloid people like veddas known to be blacks predate arabs in irak , bahrein and qatar
    and we know australoid genes people were the first people of irak 50000 years ago as show this map and that 50000 years ago blacks of M haplogroup out from L3 haplogroup to occupy coastal arabia, irak , iran and india and we know tamils and australoids were of M haplogroup, so the ubaidians the ancestors of sumerians which were the first to occupy irak were of australoid genes same as dravidians and australoids, so they were blacks !!!!!!!
    Greejs already know this truth: haven' t they said there's two kind of blacks the curly and the long haired ones respectively in africa and asia ?
    hasn' t Hellanicus a greek met blacks along Euphrates in today's modern irak ?
    Remember sumerians call themselves sag gig ga which is fakely translated as black haired when we know word for hair in sumerian is kezer , and top of head is ugudili meaning sumerians doesn' t talk about their top of heads' but of their whole head and we also know sag means head and person as in sumerian dictionary psd.museum.upenn.edu/nepsd-frame.html saĝ [HEAD] wr. saĝ "head; person; capital" Akk. qaqqadu; rēšu
    and we know to make a people to be born is sagdu in sumerian which literrally means produce a head/person and we know the colour of the head of the baby is the color of the whole baby so we can guess when sumerians say they are sag gig ga they are black heads meaning they are black people and we also know the translation of sag gig ga is zalmat qaqadu which means in akkadian the translation of the black race the adamu race of the sumerians the first race created by annunakis, and kings of the other peoples kings like Sargon, Assourbanipal, Nabuchodonosor and Cyrus always call sumerians by this name( see persee.fr/doc/bmsap_0301-8644_1902_num_3_1_6078 )so sumerians were blacks , australoid people, long haired blacks of greek authors !!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Bummer
    Maybe one of those can fit for anlaysis ?
    (They fall on rare branch under e-m123*
    They are indo-aryan or indo-iranian from north pakistan iron age )
    I1799, I1985, I3262, I6197, I6899, I6900; ~1500-800 BC; Udegram, Swat Valley, Pakistan; SPGT; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT377116
    They are all in the same paper from the same link above
    I1985

    More round faced, narrow forehead, no Asian eyelids.
    A long, slim nose with hooked nose bridge.
    Small mouth, thin lips.
    Likely brown eyes.
    Dark Hair, Dark Brown or Black, curly or wavy.
    Light brown skin.

    Fertile Crescent Neolithic 54%
    Natufian 66%
    Iran Neolithic 78%

    I3262

    More round face, narrow forehead, no Asian eyelids.
    Long, slim, hooked nose with downtuned nosetip.
    Small mouth.
    Brown Eyes.
    Light brown skin.
    Brown, wavy Hair.

    Fertile Crescent Neolithic 58%
    Natufian 67%
    Iran Neolithic 94%

    I6900

    Medium face lenght, broad forehead.
    Long, slim nose.
    Large mouth.
    Heterozygote for the EDAR gene variant that is associated with Asian teeth and hair structure.
    Too few eye color SNPs, but the present ones suggest mixed eye color, maybe hazel/green.
    Brown skin.
    Black, straight or wavy hair.

    Fertile Crescent Neolithic 60%
    Natufian 68%
    Iran Neolithic 62%

    I would suggest I6900 had a Siberian/ANE related ancestry in the past, because he does not match with the Iranian farmers and has the EDAR variant. But this is not supported by admixture. (Only 2.8% Volga-Ural)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    I1985

    More round faced, narrow forehead, no Asian eyelids.
    A long, slim nose with hooked nose bridge.
    Small mouth, thin lips.
    Likely brown eyes.
    Dark Hair, Dark Brown or Black, curly or wavy.
    Light brown skin.

    Fertile Crescent Neolithic 54%
    Natufian 66%
    Iran Neolithic 78%

    I3262

    More round face, narrow forehead, no Asian eyelids.
    Long, slim, hooked nose with downtuned nosetip.
    Small mouth.
    Brown Eyes.
    Light brown skin.
    Brown, wavy Hair.

    Fertile Crescent Neolithic 58%
    Natufian 67%
    Iran Neolithic 94%

    I6900

    Medium face lenght, broad forehead.
    Long, slim nose.
    Large mouth.
    Heterozygote for the EDAR gene variant that is associated with Asian teeth and hair structure.
    Too few eye color SNPs, but the present ones suggest mixed eye color, maybe hazel/green.
    Brown skin.
    Black, straight or wavy hair.

    Fertile Crescent Neolithic 60%
    Natufian 68%
    Iran Neolithic 62%

    I would suggest I6900 had a Siberian/ANE related ancestry in the past, because he does not match with the Iranian farmers and has the EDAR variant. But this is not supported by admixture. (Only 2.8% Volga-Ural)

    kudos
    amazing works
    so most of them have features that resemble more
    the iranian farmers

    cool
    yes could be ...
    i agree i6900 could aquire the edar allells in the steppe

    p.s
    i myself have large mouth
    by the way
    in the verteba last paper i saw 1 of the remains had the edar derived allels
    so he had east asian influence

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i agree i6900 could aquire the edar allells in the steppe

    p.s
    i myself have large mouth
    by the way
    Ya, large mouth




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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Ya, large mouth




    nice
    who is this lady or it is a male ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    nice
    who is this lady or it is a male ?
    https://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...emale-warrior/

    P.s
    It seems to me that ancient altai people has a large-mouth patent.:
    Okunevo

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    Dodgerland you make an error !

    people can be brothers and have different genes

    The people of Melanesia have a distinctive ancestry. Along with the aboriginal inhabitants of Australia, they are believed to derive from the Proto-Australoids who emigrated from Africa between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago and dispersed along the southern edge of Asia, giving rise to Australoid populations in various places, including South India, Sri Lanka, the Andaman Islands, the Philippines, and others. The limit of this ancient migration was Sahul, the continent formed when Australia and New Guinea were united by a land bridge as a result of low sea levels. The first migration into Sahul came over 40,000 years ago. A further expansion into the eastern islands of Melanesia came much later, probably between 4000 B.C. and 3000 B.C ( wikipedia)

    humanphenotype adds besides of this that veddoids/australoids were the first people of middle east and india
    Description:

    Ancient South Asian type that probably split off early and long dominated large parts of South Asia from Arabia to the Sunda Islands. Was pushed back by later migrations and became restricted to hunter-gatherers and forest populations. The skin is medium to dark brown, the hair wavy to curly. Skulls are often long and small, stature rather short, the face low, brow ridges significant, forehead and chin receding, mild prognathy common. The most typical variety is the Vedda type that survives in small numbers in Sri Lankan forests. More common are the Gondids in tribal populations of India Malids of South India show some Negritoid traits. Toalids of Indonesia are shorter-skulled. Other varieties include Senoids of Indochina and Arabian veddoids ( veddoids from arabia region) Names:
    Weddid (Eickstedt, 1952; Lundman, 1967, Vogel, 1974, Knussmann, 1996), Veddid (Lundman, 1988), Veddoid (Cole, 1965; Debets, 1974), Vedda (Vallois, 1968), Veddidi (Biasutti, 1967), Ceylonesian-Sundanesian (Cheboksarov, 1951, ) Australoid (Hooton, 1946), Homo veddalis (Haeckel, 1898)
    See also:
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2211537/
    All non-African regions including Melanesia shared the most alleles with Africa, indicating they were primarily subsets of African diversity
    cam.ac.uk/news/dna-links-aborigines-to-african-walkabout
    The results showed that both the Aborigines and Melanesians share the genetic features that have been linked to the exodus of modern humans from Africa


    AND WE KNOW africans, melnesians and aborigines , veddoid peoples ( which means people similar to Veddas who are blacks ) and dravidians have the same brown skin so they are brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by adian808 View Post
    people can be brothers and have different genes

    The people of Melanesia have a distinctive ancestry. Along with the aboriginal inhabitants of Australia, they are believed to derive from the Proto-Australoids who emigrated from Africa between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago and dispersed along the southern edge of Asia, giving rise to Australoid populations in various places, including South India, Sri Lanka, the Andaman Islands, the Philippines, and others. The limit of this ancient migration was Sahul, the continent formed when Australia and New Guinea were united by a land bridge as a result of low sea levels. The first migration into Sahul came over 40,000 years ago. A further expansion into the eastern islands of Melanesia came much later, probably between 4000 B.C. and 3000 B.C ( wikipedia)

    humanphenotype adds besides of this that veddoids/australoids were the first people of middle east and india
    Description:

    Ancient South Asian type that probably split off early and long dominated large parts of South Asia from Arabia to the Sunda Islands. Was pushed back by later migrations and became restricted to hunter-gatherers and forest populations. The skin is medium to dark brown, the hair wavy to curly. Skulls are often long and small, stature rather short, the face low, brow ridges significant, forehead and chin receding, mild prognathy common. The most typical variety is the Vedda type that survives in small numbers in Sri Lankan forests. More common are the Gondids in tribal populations of India Malids of South India show some Negritoid traits. Toalids of Indonesia are shorter-skulled. Other varieties include Senoids of Indochina and Arabian veddoids ( veddoids from arabia region) Names:
    Weddid (Eickstedt, 1952; Lundman, 1967, Vogel, 1974, Knussmann, 1996), Veddid (Lundman, 1988), Veddoid (Cole, 1965; Debets, 1974), Vedda (Vallois, 1968), Veddidi (Biasutti, 1967), Ceylonesian-Sundanesian (Cheboksarov, 1951, ) Australoid (Hooton, 1946), Homo veddalis (Haeckel, 1898)
    See also:
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2211537/
    All non-African regions including Melanesia shared the most alleles with Africa, indicating they were primarily subsets of African diversity
    cam.ac.uk/news/dna-links-aborigines-to-african-walkabout
    The results showed that both the Aborigines and Melanesians share the genetic features that have been linked to the exodus of modern humans from Africa


    AND WE KNOW africans, melnesians and aborigines , veddoid peoples ( which means people similar to Veddas who are blacks ) and dravidians have the same brown skin so they are brothers

    Adian808
    I'm afraid you have hard work to understand some things.
    1) pops situated on a track of colonisations are not by force the descendants of the first colonisers.
    2) today Black Africans = SSA people (better received) are far to be all the same people that first colonised southern Eurasia. They stayed there but evolved an other way, a lot of them. They are not all of them the very descendants of the ones who took the route eastwards. SSA are not by force so closer to this first colonisers than today "white" Europoids or "yellow' Eat-Asians.
    3) brown skin is not black skin and all the way it doesn't matter; it's a too focalised adaptative condition to prove any long term general genetic connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    nice
    who is this lady or it is a male ?
    I am not sure, I think in a female of Nolithical Sicily I saw in another thread?
    BTW I found very curious this mouth and the length of the face compared to the skull, but ...?

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